Daylight Saving Time, Who Needs it?

Well the real reason is that at one time somebody with "authority" thought that this would be a good idea. It became the law of the land that we all must follow this silly clock change.

But if you prefer, there's a more ethereal explanation on daylight savings time.

Here's a even sillier realization on daylight savings time, Finland has daylight savings time. All of Finland is north of the arctic circle. They have several weeks of continuous daylight. They don't have to save anything.

Fluff! That's all fluff. There's no reason to move the clock hands. That's my point.

Nope, there is a reason. But it is not a good reason. The reason is pure fluff, and yet it is a reason none the less.

Who told you the universe and man's laws had to make sense?

It was originally conceived to align working hours with daylight hours so we burn less candles and later use less electricity.

Somewhere you mentioned Finland has several weeks of continuous sunlight, they don't save anything. Well, its true they have continuous sunlight in the Summer in pretty low population areas of Finland to the far north. In Helsinki though they have at best 19 hour days (in the summer) and at worst 6 hour days (in the winter).

Your typical contempt for, and atrocious mismanagement of facts aside, the reason we still do it is to save on energy consumption (supposedly).

I'm not a big fan personally and agree we should just do away with it.

"Your typical contempt for, and atrocious mismanagement of facts aside"

If I've told you once, I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate!

You seem upset. Were you late to church? That could explain your bad mood. In the grand scheme of things, there are, IMHO, many more important things to think about.

Peace, Grasshopper, peace!

although, it does make about as much sense as using a comma as a decimal separator and a period as a thousands separator.

Upset? More like confused. I can alter humanity by merely turning the hands of a clock backward or forward?

There's no more daylight. That's my point. How do you explain this concept to a six year old who is learning to tell time? It's a charade.

How do you explain this concept to a six year old who is learning to tell time?

Teaching is, and always will be a challenge. "Spring forward, Fall back."

It's a charade.

Do you mean it was instituted for nefarious purposes? I doubt it. I think it was originally meant to help, not hinder or irritate. I like going to work in the wintertime when it is not dark both when I go to, and leave from, work. I thank DST for that.

" I like going to work in the wintertime when it is not dark"

So, you alter the clock instead of altering your start time? I guess that is more convenient.

Well, that would be great! Me altering the time when I am (not) +available to those who work daylight "savings" time hours! _{As if I had control of my own hours!}

That's my point. Why mess with the clocks at all? If no one adjusted the clocks, we'd all be on the same schedule all year long.

We aren't growing Victory Gardens after all.

Why do we have time zones? Why not all work to GMT or whatever the politically correct term is for GMT these days; then all we would have to do is find out what time you started work in your part of the world so that we could do business.

The Chinese only have one time zone - not much fun for some.

And the Australians have three - one of which is only ½hour different from its neighbour (and 2½hours from the other one). Now that's bizarre!

Spain and Portugal are on the same longitude as the UK, but run on CET (Central European Time), the same as France and Germany. The time map of Africa is interesting - as much political as geographic.

Hey ho.

[Edit: just seen an Oz has posted a more detailed description. The time map facinates me]

Don't put words in my mouth. Time zones make perfect sense to me, as long as time still relates to the sun passing overhead.

Here in Arizona, we leave our clocks alone. WE NEVER CHANGE THEM, EVER! And guess what? We seem to be able to cope with the business of getting on with life and business just fine, thank you very much.

Leave the flippin' clocks alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And to English Rose, sorry for getting you in a tizzy!

So just because staying on one clock system works for you, you think that everyone should work this way. Everybody wants to rule the world.

I didn't realise what a volatile subject this is. Mikerho is pissed at me and has gone away.

Oh, well. It's clear to me how it should work. I guess the rest of you can keep on doing what you always did, and keep on getting what you always got.

Cheers

Come on over. Here in Arizona it's legal to carry a firearm in public WITHOUT A PERMIT. You only need a permit if you want to hide it.

Kinda like being on the frontier.

Seems as good a reason as any to stay away, but then that is a completely different and more contentious subject.

Previous daylight saving thread.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/11849#comment114639

In what way did I "put words in your mouth"? If it appears that way to you , I apologise.

However, if "time still relates to the sun passing overhead" then shifting the clocks when the sun passing overhead shifts, would seem to make some kind of sense too.

I lived in Holland and the UK for many years and was very grateful for the time adjustment. As some others have said, changing starting time of work would achieve exactly the same thing, but would be a great deal more confusing.

I'm with you in this one, DST is plain stupidity and we will be thought as ridiculous self-cheaters by future generations.

Besides, why would you preffer goning to and comming from work during the best part of the day, and share with your family the leftovers of the sunlight (if any)?

Savings ? I don't think so, during summer schedule, in the morning you turn off the lights one hour earlier, but in the evening you turn 'em on one hour earlier, thus defeating the DTS porpuse.

Go to work early, come back early and have more sunlight for your hobbies or DIY projects !

Arizonites are sooo right !!!

Yahlasit

What errant nonsense!!! The point of DST is that it is in operation in the summertime. During the winter, we're all on ordinary time, GMT over here and various others related to GMT and determined by longitude and political boundaries wherever you are.

There was an experiment in Britain some time ago which had the country on BST (British Summer Time) during the winter months and DBST (Double BST) in the summer. Thus, despite being a December baby, I was born at 0715 BST.

Madness.

I'm with Lyn, leave the blinking (and rotating) clocks alone. I'm enjoying getting up in daylight at the moment - and making the most of it. Come 28 March, I will be plunged back into darkness at 0600 and have to use my lights again. It will be another month before it gets this light again when I get up.

Why would anyone want it to stay daylight untill 2300 whilst sacrificing Nature's wake-up call of early morning daylihgt.

BTW: DST was first used during WWI - the same conflict that gave the UK very restricted pub opening hours.

I wake up when I hear the 'Alarm Cat' Yowling for her breakfast...(or is that me? Oh I'm so confused)

I always think they should shift the clocks about 2 weeks earlier as I find I'm up and about and waiting around for and hour befor I need to get to work...give up work, that's the answer, then I could be up at the crack of dawn making bows. _{(Hmmm used to have this neighbour, stunning redhead, called Dawn)}

Del

Good post!

Dawn was no yawn I gather.....!!!

I agree with lynlynch.

I like going to work in the wintertime when it is not dark both when I go to, and leave from, work. I thank DST for that.

This you can do without changing the clock hands. Start late and come early... so simple. Why to change clock hands!

Not all of us work for firms with flexi-time. And when you have less than 8 hours of daylight in the winter, it becaomes even more difficult to manage that!

I think its great. Gives you more daylight in your leisure hours. The same could be achieved by merely starting and finishing work earlier, but the average person feels uncomfortable starting work at 05:30.

As you say, the sun goes down when it wants to and if we worked by that clock then we would automatically have daylight saving - so what's the problem?

From what I understand, China doesn't have (or seem to need) daylight saving time. They simply have all clocks across the country at the same time instead of splitting into multiple time zones like the rest of us.

The current understanding (thanks to the movies) is that your own Ben Franklin was the originator of the idea in modern times. I supose that means it wasn't the kids but rather the founding fathers of your great land.

What do you mates have down there? Do you recognise time zones? Daylight "savings" time?

Across Australia there are a few formalised time zones.

East coast (Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Canberra, Hobart and their associated states/territories.)

Central which is 30 minutes "behind" (Adelaide and Darwin with associated states)

Western which is 3 hours "behind" (Perth and Western Australia)

To complicate matters, some of the states choose NOT to have daylight saving and so we end up with some very strange combinations where Adelaide is 30 minutes ahead of Queensland (in Summer) even though they are significantly to the West. To further complicate this, the states don't all change over on the same weekend, though they are working of sorting that out this year.

We had a "referendum" on the topic years ago. 5% of the area of the state (the city) thought it such a great idea that it was implemented statewide. The country folk have then to change their activities and their stock to match the city expectations like the timing for tanker truck pick-up of milk, availability of merchandise from the stores and so on.

The original sales pitch here was that it would promote a "healthier lifestyle" by providing more leisure time in daylight after work to play with the kids or such, but reality seems that it has just converted into more drinking and antisocial behaviour.

There are some areas here as well that do not recognise the time change. It has always been one hour here - I can see though, where being 1/2 hour off would make things very messy!

Thanks for the info!

When the DBST (see earlier post) was tried here, it was discontinued because the Scottish farmers were having to work in far more darkness hours in the morning than previously. It was unsustainable, not least because they were even more dour than before - almost to a Swedish level*

There's been recent talk of converting to this again - because it would put us on CET. See, politics trying to be more important than geography, again!!!

Darn it, Lyn, you got me going, I shall be ranting all day now.

*a recognised effect of living in artic climes: suicide rates rocket during the long winter nights. My Swedish friends have all confirmed this is so and that the effect of such a paucity of daylight is noticeable.

If Ben Franklin like it, I like it.

Actually, IIRC, Ben Franklin supported the idea of changing business hours, not clock time.

My "historical content" was based on a few lines from movie "National Treasure" and so I would expect some lattitude in their projection of th concept.

How would "changing business hours" (while keeping the clocks stable) be any different? The interaction of the people that want to work in unison with the "siderial" world would still need to succumb to the whims of those that did change their times, like the banks and public sector.

Same outcome????

The problem with changing business hours is that not all businesses would change. If I need to go to my bank after work, but my employer closes at the usual 5:00 and my bank closes early, at 4:30 instead of 5:30, I have a problem. Our government may think they can do anything they want (I suspect they will learn otherwise in November) but they have not yet tried to tell companies what hours they have to be open.

I remember from grade school that it was Ben Franklin who first suggested daylight savings as a way for Parisians to save on candles. Wikipedia agrees with my feeble memory, so it must be true. I don't think it was one of his best ideas. It would be just as easy to adjust business and work hours seasonally based on local conditions, and leave the clocks alone. Or we could just all switch to Universal Time and get used to the idea that the arbitrary numbers on your clock are simply that: arbitrary numbers, and just be sure that we get up in time to make it to work. But that would clearly be asking too much for some people, especially in the US where pride, social inertial and ignorance keep us in a condition where we can't even adopt the metric system.

Uh, oh... you may have done it now:

"...where we can't even adopt the metric system."

Please allow me to illustrate:

I'm sure glad Ky used this image... getting a lot of mileage out of it!

I like your post, and you have probably explained the reasons at the same time.

In the time concerned, not everyone had a clock or watch....don't forget that single point!!

By remaining at the same number of the hour, many "simple" folk will accept that better than starting work at 9 in the winter and 8 in the summer....which will have the same effect of course.....

I'm sorry I made you cross. Bye.

I'm with you Lyn, the clock thing is a runaround. I dunno about Britain but our clocks went back on the 15th this month - as usual a great annoyance.

I was just starting to enjoy waking up at dawn instead of darkness - which is what I would do anyway if there was nothing going on. Instead, get two days waking up to the black again, third day too exhausted to be woken up, sleep away couple hours of precious daylight.

Besides the wall clock which is for correct time, there's the backwash clock on the water filter to reset, otherwise, you got up in the dark and ran water to make your coffee while it was still running.... Don't forget to change the timestamp before making a recording. Oh, and the timer clocks used for work? Suddenly it's annoying that they are not the correct time, and there are two of them, each on it's own time, and so figure out how to reset them as well...

We had a few nice sunny days, though, to make up for it. Happy St. Paddy's.

Thanks. I think I'm in the minority here. I'm just too dumb to embrace the concept of manufacturing time by moving the clocks forward. OK, daylight isn't necessarily time, but why bother all the clocks with it?

Cheers and green beers to ya!

You are making a mess of this, set the alarm for an hour later in winter than you do now, that will give you light when you wake.

When the clocks go back, stay with it, you will then still wake uo in daylight...

Simple!!

Stop making such a fuss.....

Where you live makes a difference. East or west side of the time zone determines early or late sunset/sunrise and latitude determines length of day. Here in norther Ohio, I used to be in an evening sailboat race series. We met after work and were able to finish about 9:00, while it was still light.

Sure, changing the time we work would do the same thing, but can you imagine the government trying to legislate our work hours? Without government involvement, soem companies would change and other wouldn't, which would create confusion.

Why does it matter if firms start at different times of the day? That happens already, in fact different sections of workers in the same firm often start at different times of the day.

Where I work now, the shop floor workers start at 0730 and finish at 1600, whilst the office workers start at 0830 and finish at 1700.

I've worked at places where we all started at 0800 and finished a 1645, where we started at 0745 and finished at 1630.

Only at uni did I have a day where the "work" started at 0900!

So if we change the clocks so we have longer lighted "leisure" hours, won't firms have to run their lighting systems for a larger proportion of the day, thus increasing overheads?

Businesses that are interested in serving their customers would make the adjustment. Businesses that want to avoid contact with their 'customers' would continue to do as they please. If the government becomes involved it will be because some special interest group (maybe business interests) expects to gain an advantage. They may wrap their arguments up in terms of 'safety' for school children, relief for the 'poor farmer' or other such emotional bait, but the ultimate goal is to shift the cost for artificial lighting to somebody else. I suspect that this is the case with our current daylight saving (wasting) plan.

Daylight Saving Time served its purpose during World War II when I was in my Teens.

Everybody had VICTORY GARDENS because food was scarce and food was rationed, as were cigarettes and gasoline, etc. It was a good promotional idea then, but has become nonsense. The other thing Roosevelt tried and was in effect for several years was changing Thanksgiving to the third Thursday of November. I had the third Thursday off for school and we went to school on the fourrth Thursday on which day we personally observed Thanksgiving.

These were two mistakes FDR made, but he was a great president and the closest thing to a dictator until now.

PEbob

Here in Tasmania (Australia) some years ago we had a drought and as 95% of our electricity was generated by Hydro Dams we had the option of water restrictions for home owners to save water, or Daylight Savings. DS meant people spent less awake hours in the dark, hence power consumed powering lights and heating went down and thus saved water. A bloody good concept. With carbon conservation starting to become a big argument it may be another reason for DS.

Rok

The exact same thing happened in Chile in 1969. There they went double DS. The reason was to conserve power. There are good and bad reasons for DS. To me it doesn't matter either way. The alternative being to change the alarm setting instead of the clock hands.

At one it gave the uninformed peace to think they were in control of their environment.

Well, to me it's a right royal p-i-t-a.

Half our workforce works the DST and half not.

When the difference is just over 5miles apart, and the workers need to work each others' sites, abide by Company stop and start times, 'smoko' and lunch times.

The Contractor on the DST accuses us of working 'school hours' when we emanate from the non-DST state. It costs a fortune in worker 'dead time'.

Totally unneccessary and confusing. Union negotiated stop, start and crib times are in law.

I am with you on leaving the hands just where they are and simply getting up earlier.

Have to re-negotiate union times tho'. It'd be worth it.

Amuses me when the 'experts' postulate the intellectual intricasies of time zones, but they don't know what the hell they're talking about in the real world.

Lynlynch, take up the cudgel, burn the flag, whatever. I'm with you.

Stu.

Good point about the latitude issue - I was wondering where Arizona was whilst eating my breakfast this morning!

Could you repost the map - or post a link to it as it's not displaying.

I too live in the UK, and I hate BST - and always have even as a child. I simply feel better when we get back to proper time (i.e noon ≈ sun zenith).

The debate in the UK about DBST has started again: see here. I nearly exploded when I heard the article, as Lyn** had already got me going! Personally, I think if we must try DBST again, then we should do a back to back trial with permanent GMT and base the choice on actual data and recent experiences.

Remember: any personal savings made by the public will shift to extra expenses for firms whose operating hours will have a higher proportion of darkness hours - especially in winter, when there are less than 8 hours of it to play with.

The other point that worries me is the health effect: it is not unreasonable to expect that forcing our bodies to work in a manner so far out of tune with their natural "programming"* will have an effect on our well-being, probably both physically and mentally. I know that if I have an early rise habit, I am healthier and happier than when I have a period of sleeping in. Longer light evenings will also make it harder to sleep in the evening.

Quite frankly, all this is just a stealth way of getting us onto CET, just as the setting up of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies is readying the nation for the federal states of Europe. We don't have an English assembly or Parliament (Westminster is a UK&NI Parliament without the option for English MPs only to vote on English only matters: the Lothian Question) as it is consider too large an entity - hence the failed attempted at a North England Assembly a few years back - one which the voters clearly and emphatically rejected.

*no intelligent design implied

**apology noted and accepted

Click on map below for state profiles.

Hi, ER. Here's that map. Arizona borders Mexico so, we have lots of illegals coming across the border looking for work.(Not so many now that there's no work)

I live in the desert, but just 2 hours to the north and you're at 10,000 feet elevation. It's snowing there today, while our high will be over 80 F here in the valley.

Cheers!

My God!

What are they doing in Mexico to make the eagles so sick that they have to come here at all, let alone having to look for some kind of work???

No No NO!!!

Illegals:

Not eagles:

That bird looks to be pretty healthy...

not at all like the ill eagles you spoke of earlier (#65).

This is what we though you were speaking of:

Yeah, and to top it off, those guys in that picture don't look too happy about being forced to cross the border!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Only if it's stopped.

Haven't we discussed this twice already on CR4?

One of the reasons was in WWII to reduce the carbon footprint (modern words!) by reducing the time needed to use artificial light on spring, summer and autumn days....

I would guess that even today, daylight can save some electricity in some industries.....

I personally like it, having the it lighter in the evenings, as fishing is a hobby of mine.

...and lets face it, DST costs NOTHING!!! Its free, so we GOTTA have it!!!

" DST costs NOTHING!" except maybe in places like Arizona where the added cost of air conditioning during that extended period of daylight might cost more.

Good morning, Lynlynch. Nice little buzz you have going here.

About a hundred years ago, I remember fishing with a friend of my father (an American Indian fellow, retired, and an accomplished woodsman in every sense of the phrase), and during the afternoon, I asked him what time he thought it might be.

"Who cares?' was the drawled response. "I eats when I'm hungry, and I sleeps when I'm tired. Don't even got a clock in ma house."

I speculate this fellow pays little attention to the shifts between standard time and DST. Or ever has, for that matter.

This is nothing. redfred as good as called me a fascist. That was in the unemployment fiasco. Here, I was just labeled a whiner!!!!

I seem to be incendiary where ever I go. _{I admit I was not thinking clearly in the other thread, ^{but don't tell Fred}.}

Bring back the old avatar. Down with DST!

I guess I need to be notified whenever the next unscheduled "Bash lynlynch" day comes around. I always like to watch a good dogpile!

And, unsure to which avatar you refer... Is this your favorite?

^{shown here is 'Homely Harry' at a party}

One of the reasons was in WWII to reduce the carbon footprint (modern words!) by reducing the time needed to use artificial light on spring, summer and autumn days....

I would guess that even today, daylight can save some electricity in some industries.....

I remembered a movie "Language of Animals". It shows that the monkeys think that it is raining, if the noise of rain is heard. If we play a recorded noise of rain even in broad sun light, monkeys take shelter to avoid the rain.

So some industries will switch off lights (and amy be stop working) based on clock hands position, and not by notising the available actual sun light! Ha ha ha ha!

A few years ago, Ohio would change to DST and Indiana wouldn't. My occasional two hour commute got all messed up. It only took me an hour to get there, but three hours to come back.

Please, could someone much smarter than me susplain how moving the clocks saves energy? This was the rational for the US Congress moving the clocks even sooner the last couple of years. If this works so well why not move them ahead about 500 hours and we could be energy independent and maybe even a net exporter.

I work for a company that runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week on 4 shifts, 2 - 12 hour shifts a day. The night shift that works the weekend worked an hour shorter than every one else because of the time change. Then in the fall when the time changes again they will have to work an hour longer than everyone else. I agree with Lynlynch, leave the clocks only. It really throws off the sleep schedule and it is difficult to go to bed at 830PM in the summer while it is still daylight when you have to get up at 330AM to go to work the next day.

Once, I saved so much daylight it became unusably bright.

DST (Daylight Saving Time) is ok, as long as its just during the summer, but after that is a pain. In NSW Oz they extended it to nearly the end of autumn(Fall for the US) trouble is my body clock has already gone back to EST(Eastern Standard Time) and thinks Im getting up at 4am not the 5am my clock says. Makes for a long day.

Worst part is going from EST to DST takes my circadian clock a month to catch up. Made worse by the politicians pulling the start date back to the start of Spring.

I lived for a while in Queensland where there is no DST. The only problem I had was southerners ringing me a 9pm when it was 8pm for them. When I moved back it took me 3 years to adjust to DST again.

Impressive ranting skills, everyone!

Here's another one: why do all the kids have 6 weeks' school holiday during the summer?

Answer: so they can work with the adults in the field bringing the harvest in.

Benjamin Franklin proposed it. The U.S.A. first enacted it during World War I.

Maybe we should vote?

I am for DST.

In fact, I am also for DDST as well (that should get some extra reaction!!)

Against.

Against

Against

There's a lovely old farm cottage with a clock tower in Harlow, the inscription above the clock reads.
'Work while it is Day'
Seems pretty sensibule to me...get up when it gets light, kip when it's dark.
Del (+ naps at regliar intermavals in between)

Nice if you can, unfortunately the firm I work for don't do flexible working and frown upon work time naps (even though research shows it makes people more efficient).

And if I went to sleep when it got dark:

1. I'd never get to go home in winter (and what would my kitties do then?)
2. I'd not go to my evening classes/clubs/committees/lectures in winter
3. I wouldn't listen to Radio 7
4. When would I eat?

If I decide to follow the "give up work" option you suggested, can I and the cats come and live with you and eat your food?

Yeah lets build a roundhouse tucked away in a wooded valley on the scarp slope of the South Downs...everyone can come...CR4 commune. Wind and Solar power..tere's water in them thar Downs...
My longbow should keep down the Nimbys.
Del

Rammed earth extention and south facing windows to collect sunlight/warmth to keep heating bills down.

I'm a dab hand at collecting bracken for roofing...

Sheep shall safely graze...

Hi Del the Cat,

" 'Work while it is Day' "

This is why I like DST... my natural embedded clock makes me wake up at dawn anyway, so I can sleep more with DST! I'm sad that it's over now... the real problem is winter with its shorter days, not the clock...

brgds

Snel

Against

Time isn't absolute. Time is a protocol.

When the Great Western Railway was first opened to Bristol, a businessman wanting the 3:00pm train to London would have needed to be at the station by 11 minutes to three, otherwise he would have missed it. The reason was that the Railway was on London Time, and Bristol was on its own local time.

The nonsense was sorted out soon after that. The Guard of the first stopping train of the day leaving London after 10am set his watch to London Time, and the clocks at all the stations the train stopped at were set to match it en route.

Atomic clocks? Bah, humbug!

Just as well that we're mostly old gits here and that we've forgotten that we have this thread twice a year....
Del

And what do we do with the daylight we save?
I put mine in an old suitcase under the bed.
If I need to get up for a pee, I open the case so I can see where I'm going...
Del

In college "fall behind" was one of my favorite holidays of the year. Imagine, a night where you're at the bar, you're having a good time, you look at your watch "Oh no, it's 3:30, bar closes in a half hour........but wait!.....it's actually 2:30, bartender, another pitcher please!!!"

I hated spring ahead for obvious reasons.

How often do you have to empty that old suitcase?

Luckily is a water tight suitcase....and it holds a lot of yellow stuff before it needs emptying.....smells a bit though!!!

A 100 years ago they called them "goeszunda" and they were made of porcelain!!!

Del's has also "Kitty litter" in it.....

Heh-heh! Good thread!

Thanks, all, for an entertaining read with my morning coffee.

(I don't much like DST, I prefer staying in sync with the sky.)

(I don't much like DST, I prefer staying in sync with the sky.)

I too stay in sync with sky. Being astronomer, sleep when Sun rises and wake up when sun sets..

So I am real Astronut!