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How to Move It?

05/30/2011 1:53 AM

Hey everybody!

I'm fairly new and have a desicision to make.

I need to move 40lbs, vertically upwards 0.7 meters in 2.8 seconds.

Here's the problem: Which is the best way to do this?

I know I can use: linear motors; pneumatics; or hydraulics.

I know:

1) Linear motors aren't really cut out for vertical motion.

2) The application in a "food processing" environment", but in the post packageing stage. So, possible hydraulic fluid contamination, however slight, is present.

Any insights as to how to proceed would be very welcome.

Thanks,

G. Albert

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#1

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 2:00 AM

Somebody from the Bulgarian Women's Weightlifting Team can do this pretty easily. Some other choices might include a ball-screw mechanism, a chain drive around a pair of sprockets, or a water-based hydraulic system.

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#2

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 6:14 AM

In food processing there's always the possibility of contamination from lubrication or hydraulics. Good design and maintenance minimises this. All food plants I've worked in any hydraulics would be below the product flow. All chains would be contained within splash proof guards. The list is endless, but it all comes down to understanding the circumstances.

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#3

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 8:07 AM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Spam: This post was deleted because it contained advertising outside the Commercial Space forum. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ about advertising.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 9:11 PM

This is a Great forum for answers to questions, but not the place to market your wares,(spam). But feel free to come back with a question or something useful to say. Otherwise, good-bye

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 9:41 PM

The polite way to explain is; the forum rules CR4 FAQ prohibit the posting of links to our businesses, or posting personal email addresses. There is a 'private mail' (PM) system available via clicking on the ID of any member. It is not for spam, it's for private dialogue.

From me; Welcome and I hope you enjoy the experience

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 11:40 PM

your right about a polite way of explaining about spamming, but she didn't get the hint with her last three spam posts. DJ

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#4

Re: How to move it?

05/30/2011 7:57 PM

Thanks for the feed back.

I'll look into the sprocket chain and water based hydraulics.

G. Albert

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#10
In reply to #4

Re: How to move it?

05/31/2011 1:00 AM

I would favour a hydraulic lift for your application. Certainly you would place it so that the "oil end" is below the food products you are handling - but I would also use one of the totally inert food grade oils that are available for use in the system, so that any inadvertent leaks would have minimal impact on your process.

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#7

Re: How to Move It?

05/30/2011 11:37 PM

pour hot coffee on your lap, and you will be up in that weight up in 0.4 seconds!

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#20
In reply to #7

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 7:21 AM

Nice one.. I was going to say.. get a baggage handler from Terminal 5!

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 7:59 AM

what about a skyhook?

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#22
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Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 8:05 AM

even better...

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#9

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 12:56 AM

Does it have to be powered...I mean, like a conveyor belt, and running eight hours a day, or can you have a person heave on a lever to lift the five gallon pail up to the shelf? If you are just doing one lift an hour, then a simple buggy jack would work fine.

I envision a tool which scoops up a wine carboy and lifts it up to the racking station. It would look much like a large bell crank.

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#11

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 1:11 AM

There are a number of linkages which will provide an almost straight line movement or maybe you could get away with a curved path. These could be made of stainless steel including the pivots (easily cleaned).

The driver of this mechanism be it a LA or motor gearbox and could be attached to a shaft and thus sealed of from the food area.

LA's either electric, pneumatic or hydraulic are fine for lifting and could also be shielded with a stainless linear shaft sealed in nylon slides which could protrude into the food area.

Tony

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#12

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 1:14 AM

How about a wheel with a pin & crank (see diagram).

You can adjust lever length and/or pin position to get required lift of 700mm. Adjust rotation speed with motor speed and or gearing to achieve 1 revolution of main wheel in 5.6 secs (i.e. down to up is half a revolution of 2.8 secs).

You could Start/Stop the lift manually, with limit switches on the wheel/lever arm, or by using some sort of synchronous motor to drive it. Possibilities are endless.

One BIG advantage is thas the start & stop velocities are slowed by the rotational axis of the wheel. This means your load will not jump up off the platform as it stops at its upper limit, as the vertical velocity approaches zero as the wheel pin comes to the top of the rotation.

Cheers

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#13

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 1:18 AM

0.7 M in 2.8 sec.= 0.25 M/sec.;

for a ball lead screw of 1 mm pitch, it means a revolution of 250 x 60 = 15000 RPM, driven by a servomotor of 0.5 kw capacity,(using 2x∏xNxT/60).

May I, therefore, suggest your using a bellows covered ball lead screw and linear slide assembly to move (lift) your load of 20 Kg.f in 2.8 seconds. Please apply P.I.D. control in the servo motor amplifier circuit along with a parking brake in Normally "on" mode, to prevent back-slide and also for holding the precise position.

Please feel free to correct me and/or seek clarifications. Please do not employ water hydraulics!!

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 1:53 AM

Where can you find a ball screw of 1mm pitch?

What is wrong with water hydraulics?

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 3:03 AM

Try THK or Misumi (Japan/Korea). The suggestion for 1mm pitch was as a "worst case" example. If we opt for higher pitch values, RPM will come down favorably.

Hydraulics is "Messy" with even unacceptably wet floors. Jets of high pressure water from even less than pin hole leaks can harm or even kill people!!

Can anything beat the elegance of electric/electronics/mechatronics systems??

In the mechatronic system suggested, there is zero potential for contamination and has extreme MTBF enhancing reliability.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 3:15 AM

For 40 lb, a 1-inch diameter cylinder at 60 psi (a fairly typical water supply pressure) would give 47 lb of lift. The cylinder and a 3-way valve (or two simple valves) would be all that is needed, with no danger of high-pressure leaks.

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#25
In reply to #16

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 10:15 AM

We should not forget the power required to generate the "Pressure",isn't it??

We can make the mechatronic system even simpler by using a set of one timing belt and two pulleys (one at either end), substituting lead screw.A multicore cable lead is all that is required to power the stepper or servo motor.

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#17

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 3:26 AM

More information please.

How frequently are you making the lift? Is this regular or intermittent?

Does 2.8seconds include the time to reset the lifting mechanism for the next lift?

Are there any space limitations? You are suggesting vertical but can you move it on an incline?

What size/shape is your package?

Is it delicate? Would it be damaged by a sweep arm for instance?

How are you presenting it to the lift mechanism?

How are you recovering it from the lift mechanism?

Depending on the answers to the above questions, an incline conveyor (possibly with flights) is simple, low cost, regular, gentle, takes all shapes and sizes, is easy to maintain, accepts a package from an in-feed conveyor, presents a package to an out-feed conveyor, and if run from a 1:1 sprocket from the feed in conveyor, may not cost you anything to run.

There is no guarantee that a potential supplier who asks the right questions will provide a good product, but be wary of any potential supplier who does not ask the right questions.

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#18

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 4:49 AM

I think the device you are looking for is called a crane. The load sits on a tray, to the four corners of which are attached cords. These cords are linked to a single cord, which may be wound onto a motorised drum. The upward and downward movement of the tray may be constrained by guide tracks, on which switches which limit the extent of the movement may be mounted.

A comparable device, using an enclosed cage to transport people as well as goods, is known as a lift or elevator.

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#19

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 7:05 AM

You need simple 50 kg Chain Electric Hoist with hoisting speed of 15 m/min. You can get such hoist or may be near to your specs.

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#23

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 8:08 AM

I was working for the largest U.S. potato chips compagny and for application like yours, we used pneumatic cylinder for packaging operation or washdown proof (SS) pneumatic cylinder on the process part or the factory. This is the easyest way to move something in a food environment. No contamination possible. You just need compressed dry air and a bit of electric control. You adjust the speed of your cylinder with flow valves.

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#26
In reply to #23

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 10:42 AM

Normally my EE experience would call for a purely electronic (motor) solution. However, I've recently spent many months working in the beverage packaging industry and have learned that there are better solutions. I would agree that the pneumatic approach is best for cost, simplicity, maintenance, and sanitary reasons.

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#24

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 8:48 AM

There have been a number mistakes I have seen engineers do is,

1.) Remember to take into account not only the mass of the product, but the machine also.

2.) ensure that the machine base/frame is stout enough to move this mass as well as stop without flexing.

Now, how.

without know the particulars, such as cycle times so I'm just throwing stuff out there.

a) Hydraulic or pneumatic (more info needed) cylinders should be able to do it, as well. http://www.smcusa.com/smc.aspx

b) rack and pinion attention to safe guarding is required. as well as other processes

c) Ball screws I would also favor http://www.nookindustries.com/

d) cabling and/or chain,

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#30
In reply to #24

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 2:00 PM

don't forget the completely unique amacoil thingy.

so I'm just throwing stuff out there. me too!

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 2:37 PM

How could I have forgotten, We just installed a linmot on a packaging machine. it is cool.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: How to Move It?

06/04/2011 9:13 PM

Interesting--it looks as though linear motor tech is progressing to substantial forces/speeds. This makes me think of door actuators, for instance, to replace some of the clunky ones we now have on our freezer rooms.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 2:59 PM

you forgot the skirting ladders and the foof valve, but its no good without the dobresplufter pin (do-bre-spluf-ter)... for those of a technical persuasion, who wanna pronounce it right when ordering at Radio Shack..

Catalogue number??..umm!!

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#27

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 10:51 AM

I would use a system similar to that used with windscreen wiper motors, in fact you could adapt a truck unit. For most of the stroke, power is supplied by a wiper on a circular track with a break in it (the park postion). When you supply power momontarily, the wiper moves onto the track and the motion continues until the break in the track (you can have two, top and bottom of stroke). As I suggested previously this can be contained in a sealed box and drive a mechanism similar to 12.

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#28

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 11:05 AM

If you put a counterbalance to offset the weight, you can use any of the systems mentioned. Sadly you never mentioned if the weight is removed for the downward stroke or not.....which would imply a 40 lb. downward thrust....still easily achieved.

I personally would use 2 lead-screws, each with at least two "starts" and some 3 amp stepper motors, linked by a chain to keep them sychronised....A PIC as a controller with a relatively simple program and a couple of Allegro chips to drive the motors.....highly accurate for both the top and the bottom.....as well as fast.

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#29

Re: How to Move It?

05/31/2011 11:54 AM

When questions like this show up, I am tempted to reply: hire a mechanical engineer (or electromechanical/mechatronics engineer, etc).

Any recent grad engineer should* be able to sketch up 50 different mechanisms (if someone wanted her to so so) using various combinations of motion control devices: hydraulic, pneumatic, electrical, screws, levers, cranks, gears, chains, etc. etc. The mechanism that works best for the given application depends upon a great many factors, the details of which have not been provided by the OP. The simple answer is "Yes, of course any of these methods can be used, and there are many others that can be used, too. The best method for a particular circumstance requires engineering... as done by an engineer."

Obviously, this is exactly the sort of movement that is accomplished routinely and most commonly by pneumatics. In an industrial setting, pneumatics are so easy and simple to implement, that when small loads like this are to be moved a small distance from one point to another, pneumatics are the first and most obvious choice, and as a result are the most widely use method for such movements.

For very high forces, hydraulics are warranted, even though their implementation will require a hydraulic pump, tank, leak prevention or adaptation schemes. Position control can be much better (than for pneumatics), if that is an issue.

There is a trend toward replacing pneumatics with linear motors, and some vendors claim overall cost savings, but in many applications, the math does not support the claim: if you simply need to bang something from position a to position b, pneumatics are very hard to beat costwise. Linear motors (in all the variations, some of which are physical replacements for common pneumatic cylinders) offer positioning control lacking in pneumatic cylinders (accurate acceleration control, accurate stopping at intermediate points, etc) Linear actuator promo materials (see link below) use phrases like this: " to package the device in such a way as to still make it easy to use as a pneumatic actuator,"

The OP even at this early stage has misconceptions to work against. 1. Linear motors are just fine an lifting things vertically. Visit any large industrial plant: you see linear motors lifting plenty of things.

In general, this forum works best with specific questions, rather than with the most basic and broad questions. At the early "back of the envelope" pencil sketch stage, there are far too many questions to deal with, unless people have infinite time for designing thing for others, for free.

The OP might, as a first step (on his own), define the requirements of the motion. Are "soft", well-controlled, starts and stops required? Can the motion be roughly sinusoidal in velocity (as in driven by a crankshaft)? Perhaps all that is needed for stopping control is a simple end of travel damper? Sketch up 5 possible systems, and find out what each costs. Weigh the costs and benefits. Then, when specific questions arise, he/she can come back and ask them. For example "My linear actuator vendor claims that his system is nearly a direct replacement for a pneumatic cylinder system we are considering. The initial cost is higher, but the vendor claims there will be less downtime. Our system is new, and we may have a need for more precise motion control, and may want to easily make changes in motion profile. What experiences have people had with using linear actuators as a pretty direct alternatives to pneumatic cylinders. What do the maintenance people say?"

* ... although I am often stunned at how few recent grads have a good grasp of designing and making things

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#34
In reply to #29

Re: How to Move It?

06/05/2011 1:56 AM

This has become more of a discussion than a serious attempt to answer, what is a very open question.

One thing that must be pointed out with pneumatics, is that even with pressure locked either side of the piston or it pushed against a solid stop, the positioning is only as accurate as the compressing of the air. It does have the advantage of a great speed differential.

Whilst a hydraulic system contains a virtually incompressible oil and the linear motor is self locking even with no power.

Tony

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: How to Move It?

06/05/2011 2:12 PM

"This has become more of a discussion than a serious attempt to answer,"

that is because the OP has never been back... in which case, the cr4 crowd has shown more interested in the subject than the OP... We don't have further guidance from the OP, so who knows what might happen... I know I tend to be flippant when it does..

chris

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#36

Re: How to Move It?

06/07/2011 8:13 PM

First off, I'd like to thank EVERYONE who responded.

Secondly, there is a significant time difference between the majority of you and myself. Add to this that this is not for my primary job, which comes first. I have checked the thread and read the comments when time permitted.

I learned more about what to consider for each method mentioned in the original post and then some.

It is precisely this kind of information that is generated by so called open ended questions. These start discussions where the pros and cons are hashed out by the veterans who've used them. You obviously don't mind sharing that information, and now this dialogue is a matter of open record for anyone in the future to read and learn. This kind of information cannot be found in textbooks. For this, I am truly grateful to all of you.

As far as this thread turning into a discussion, oftentimes open ended questions spark discussions, more so in open societies where people are willing to share their opinion. This is quite unlike Asian societies, specifically a particular island nation which first sees the light of day (personal experience).

I mentioned pneumatics in the OP, but knew that that depended greatly on the air supply and unless a hard stop is employed at the top, the upper stop position could vary, which is undesirable.

For those who insist on more details, the mechanism lifts a motor/reducer which has a bank of vacuum suction cups attached to a bar. This picks a flattened cardboard box from a stack and moves it upwards so that it opens (with the aid of air jets) and into position for the bottom to be taped.

The servo/reducer is there in case the box needs to be rotated 180deg (I know, I know, train a monkey, it's easier in the long run, they work for peanuts and bananas) so that the correct side is taped.

The method chosen will be a servo/reducer combination driving a chain with a counterweight attached to the other end. Piecing several replies together generated this method. As mentioned in one reply, I do need to consider the frame further. The cycle time is 2.8sec.

As the stack decreases in height, the distance traveled will increase, unless the platform is spring loaded (like the plate stacks in a buffet line, if you ever saw them). Since there are three different carton sizes, and weights, I'm still debating that issue.

Again, thank you all for you assistance.

G. Albert

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: How to Move It?

06/08/2011 12:14 AM

I guess this is what it's all about, isn't it? Problem Solving at it 's best" DJ

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