Roger's Equations Blog

Roger's Equations

This blog is all about science and technology (with occasional math thrown in for fun). The goal of this blog is to try and pass on the sense of excitement and wonder I feel when I read about these topics. I hope you enjoy the posts.

Previous in Blog: The Chemistry of DNA Part 4   Next in Blog: The Antiscience – Part II
Close
Close
Close
Page 2 of 2: « First < Prev 1 2 Last »
Rating: Comments: Nested

The Antiscience - Part I

Posted April 15, 2010 3:56 PM by Bayes

Preface

Philosophical Extremes; A Defense of Pure Reason

The other day I found myself defending the existence of the Large Hadron Collider and fundamental research in general. The effort was discouraging and, more importantly, dispiriting. There is a feeling of persecution in the scientific community, unspoken but unmistakable. There's a creeping fear that the world is going mad and we can't stop it. We work, discover, present, and solve more and more problems. Yet the more we solve, the less credibility we seem to have.

I turned inward to try to understand why this is happening. I can't abide my fellow scientists and their insecure need to justify truth. The value of truth is self-evident to me. Indulging the opinions of the uninformed in some sort of attempt to seem open-minded (as though one can be open-minded about the truth) seems more damaging than helpful. Such actions undermine science, giving authority to opinion at the expense of truth.

After some thought, I came to the conclusion that the current sentiment against pure research is the logical progression of our current philosophical age. We are, I believe, approaching a sort of philosophical extreme, where the tenets of that age's philosophy are taken too far.

This series of posts will trace briefly the progression of philosophy that has led to our current philosophical age. They will attempt to demonstrate the cyclic tendency of Philosophy-Extremism-Rejection-New Philosophy which, I believe, can explain the current sentiment about science in the world.

The purpose of this series of posts is not to solve, but rather to understand what is happening. I dedicate it to my fellow scientists under siege.

The Antiscience

"Every generation laughs at the old fashions, but follows religiously the new."

Epistemology has dominated philosophy for the past several centuries in the same way that Theology had during the previous millennium. Our modern age, defined by the advancement of technology, today exists because of our better understanding of how to acquire natural truths and exploit them. This understanding comes after many centuries of struggling to comprehend the world around us. Of course, it wasn't always as it is now, this modern way of looking at the world, and less intuitively, it won't always be this way.

Tens of thousands of years ago, humans started filling the voids created by consciousness with Art, Religion, and Philosophy, and in that time the process has been marked by only the certainty of change. To try to trace the philosophical movements of the past thousand years would be disjointed and ultimately distracting. I'll instead begin with the first movement of the modern philosophical epoch which consists of the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, Romanticism, Realism, and finally our current Technology Age.

The Renaissance: A New Epoch in Philosophy Begins

"One cannot conceive anything so strange and so implausible that it has not already been said by one philosopher or another." - Rene Descartes

The current philosophical epoch, spanning the Renaissance to the present day, began as a rediscovery of an earlier Greco-Roman epoch of philosophy. For 1200 years the Greeks and then the Romans had sought with furious industry to determine the physical nature of the world, of humans, and of human institutions. Then, with the ascension of the first Christian Emperor, and later the fall of the Western Roman Empire to Germanic tribes, that epoch of Aristotle, Euclid and Ptolemy had ended and the new epoch of Augustine of Hippo, Thomas Aquinas, and Desiderius Erasmus began.

After the fall of Rome, theology reigned. Philosophers would spend a millennium debating the doctrines of Christianity, and the nature of the human spirit. During these years, schools of thought would come and go and eventually a set of principles evolved which, for the most part, manifest themselves as our understanding of the human spirit today (being present, but not part of the human body, death being the separation of the spirit and the body, afterlife being the place where the spirit goes, etc.). By the 13th century, the Church as an institution looked unshakeable and Italy began to prosper. It was the height of the Theological Epoch.

Rebirth

The Rebirth (the literal meaning of Renaissance) started slowly and innocently enough. By the 14th century, the people of the Italian peninsula, particularly Venice where trade was flourishing, began to feel nostalgic for the greatness of old Rome. Petrarch, a poet from Venice, wrote the Epic Poem Africa, which detailed the old Roman Republican hero Scipio Africanus, the general who defeated the Carthaginian menace, Hannibal. Petrarch's work was well-received, and he used his influence to push for the recovery and Latin translations of early Greek and Roman writers. Soon everyone in Italy was searching everywhere for extant Greek and Roman works and amassing a vast corpus of ancient literature. Caesar, Cicero, Virgil, Homer, Aristotle, Plutarch, Sappho, Herodotus, Tacitus, Thucydides, Plato, Aristophanes, and many other ancient writers were dusted off, studied and debated. The early renaissance was a vibrant time of rediscovery that soon spread throughout Europe, supported and even patronized by the Church. Art and Sculpture and Literature of increasing quality could be found throughout the Italian City States of Florence, Milan, Venice, and the Papal States. The Renaissance began as a happy marriage of Theology and History, each glorifying the other.

The Church's support and enthusiasm for the early Renaissance was mostly because it was in accord with established theology, but over time, an interest in the "classical era" of the Greeks and Romans and their works inevitably led to a resurgence in the philosophical topics of that epoch. What had started as an exercise in nostalgia slowly transformed, by the 16th and 17th centuries, into a renewed interest in the cultural and intellectual peaks of the philosophies of ancient Greece and Rome. What had been up until then a relatively smooth transition between theological and the new Revived Greco-Roman philosophical epochs began to get a bit turbulent as rediscovered ancient ideas contradicted Church doctrine. Soon philosophers such as Galileo Galilei were pushing the boundaries of knowledge beyond that which the church felt comfortable. The unexpected success of the Protestant Reformation had made the Church cautious, and it started to stand in opposition to the expanding Philosophical Renaissance. It was soon apparent that for this Rebirth of Philosophy to continue to grow, the movement would have to separate itself from the tethers of theology.

The Enlightenment: Reason over Doctrine

"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Those ancient Greco-Roman philosophies had seduced a continent plagued by disease, war, and an increasingly impotent Church, to return to contemplating the ancient ideals of the human form, government, art, and knowledge or "truth". Scholars sought out and devoured the ancient works, combining classic thought and modern theology, achieving artistic heights and intellectual leaps. Eventually however, philosophers started to view Theology, particularly Church doctrine, as more of a hindrance than as a compliment to understanding the natural world. There was a shift, not epochal, but still significant. The shift would break the final fetters of theology and glorify not the Church, but reason as the highest authority for understanding the natural world.

During the Enlightenment, the ideal of knowledge, called "truth", subjugated the other ideals. Reason and empiricism, the means by which "truth" was obtained, were applied to all the arts and sciences, from biology to music to politics. The scientific method, the ultimate expression of the Enlightenment, was born of the belief that through precise observation and reasoning, one could obtain truth. During this period, it was believed that all of the ills experienced by man could be conquered eventually by reason. In the beginning, there were many successes and much progress was made. But soon the philosophical pendulum reached an extreme, and what had started out as a means to free thought from theology turned into a cult of rationality. The enlightenment railed against anything that couldn't be proven by reason and labeled such things "superstitions". Soon political "enlightenment" led to the French Revolution and countless horrors for Europe.

Ultimately this was the Enlightenment's undoing. For as well as reason and observation serves us, and as much as progress can be made by indoctrinating the acquisition of knowledge, it didn't explain the fact that human beings had been painting seashells for 40,000 years. That is to say, there are aspects of the human experience that are separate from reason - some would even say transcend reason. People knew this intuitively, but the Enlightenment rejected it.

Romanticism

"I had therefore to remove knowledge, in order to make room for belief." - Immanuel Kant

The backlash against the pure reasoning of the Enlightenment manifested itself as a movement of its own, Romanticism. Romanticism embraced emotional experience as the relevant experience. The romantics believed that the Enlightenment had gone too far, that not everything could be explained with "cold" reasoning. Romantics pointed to intuition and imagination as the means to attain truth. Romanticism was marked by Revivalism, Gothic Resurgence, and a general nostalgia for that extinct and now Romanticized Theological Epoch. Unfortunately, the world was moving forward, not backward, and soon the cold realities of the American Civil War, The Crimean War, and countless colonial rebellions across the globe undermined the romanticized worldview. As with all movements, Romanticism went too far. Obviously, every truth couldn't be derived by mere imagination. Surely, some reasoning was necessary. Thus the next major movement, Realism, was born.

Realism

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Frederick Nietzsche

Realism rejected what it felt were the overly emotional sentiments of the Romantics, embracing instead "truth", be it good or bad. This was subtlety different from the Enlightenment in that where the Enlightenment sought ideals in every aspect of human experience, realism simply sought one ideal - the ideal of knowledge, "truth". The realists weren't trying to save the world through reason like the Enlightenment thinkers, or embrace it with emotions like the Romantics, but rather understand all the "truths" of it, whether those truths be ugly or beautiful, coldly and critically.

".......This is the sort of modernity that made us ill, --we sickened on lazy peace, cowardly compromise, the whole virtuous dirtiness of the modern Yea and Nay. This tolerance and largeur of the heart that "forgives" everything because it "understands" everything is a sirocco to us. Rather live amid the ice than among modern virtues and other such south-winds! We were brave enough; we spared neither ourselves nor others'......" - Friedrich Nietzsche "Der Antichrist" 1888.

One example of Realism, and it's fatal flaw, is the passage quoted above from Nietzsche's Der Antichrist. The passage articulates Nietzsche's and other Realists' belief that Christianity was undermining Natural Selection. Nietzsche complains that the tenets of Christianity, principally compassion for the weak, prevents Natural Selection from weeding the weaker races from the stronger ones, thus undermining the evolution of mankind. Nietzsche, himself frail and a bit of a loner, went to great pains to explain that weak individuals in a "strong" race were counter-intuitively a blessing because they could make out-sized contributions due to their "time to think". (You've got to love Nietzsche. If you find yourself quoting Nietzsche, however, I suggest you read him thoroughly first).

In Der Antichrist he uses the term "Hyperbolean" to describe the stronger races and the plague of religion as originating "in the south". What Nietzsche was writing in Der Antichrist was that it was an unpleasant fact that Natural Selection exists, but being a realist meant you accepted that fact. Furthermore, since "compassion for the weak" was in direct opposition to Natural Selection (Survival of the Fittest), it was a blight and a hindrance of Human Kind's progress.

Therein lies the difficulty with Realism. It starts with a truth and uses logic to reach a conclusion. Unfortunately, realism never double checks the truth it starts with. It assumes that truth to be correct and never revisits it.

Compassion for our fellow human beings isn't a "blight". Our compassion for each other isn't in opposition to natural selection; it is the result of natural selection. Scientists now have found that it is our high altruism that separates us from even our nearest primate relatives, who themselves are fairly compassionate for animals. Our ability to empathize, our compassion, our altruism are the very traits that make us so successful as a species. In fact, our species is defined by our ability to cooperate. Nietzsche misunderstood natural selection, specifically "fittest" in the phrase of "Survival of the Fittest", but he wasn't alone in that misunderstanding. Many of the Realists made the same mistake; it was called "Social Darwinism". It took two world wars and several holocausts for the world to yearn again for a little idealism.

After World War II, the world was irreversably changed. The horrors of the last few decades demanded a change in thinking. The world needed idealism again, something to save humanity from itself, and they knew exactly what could do it.

End of Part I

Click here for Part II

Register to Reply

This discussion was "closed" on 04/20/2010 9:34 AM. No new comments are allowed.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#117
In reply to #115
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 3:17 PM

In reply both to 112 and 115.

That history is often written by victors is a question to be considered, and adjusted for. But even as far back as Thucydides there was history from the largely losing side. A good historian will seek out all voices, and will try to delve into what makes the best sense.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#116
In reply to #112
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 2:44 PM

Proof of your premise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z2vU8M6CYI&feature=player_embedded milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#121
In reply to #116

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 12:33 AM

so bizarre! ga

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#119
In reply to #112
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 12:21 AM

I've never heard of Stonehenge being seriously considered as anything but an astronomical observatory. There is still a great deal of lost knowledge that the builders had that has not yet been rediscovered.

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#122
In reply to #119

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 12:50 AM

R2-D2 and C-3PO are standing on Salisbury Plain, looking at Stonehenge. C-3PO says, "Just think, R2, of our glorious heritage. They say this was built by the ancient Droids."

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#123
In reply to #122

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 12:55 AM

The force is strong with this one!

Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#124
In reply to #119

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 1:41 AM

"'ve never heard of Stonehenge being seriously considered as anything but an astronomical observatory" Exactly my point...

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#149
In reply to #112
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 12:03 PM

Actually it is more appropriate to state history is writen by the survivors, especially when considering late Roman History. Obviously, frequently the Germanic tribes were the victors repeatedly, but since the Romans knew how to write they wrote the histories.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 581
Good Answers: 15
#103
In reply to #78
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 10:42 AM

Your analytical approach and analysis is similar to mine. I postulate that all life forms are driven primarily (exclusively?) towards greater comfort, where comfort is contextual. I wrote recently that engineers and scientists should learn to thrive on cluelessness, which I believe is a minor contradiction to the natural desired state of humans: confusion is uncomfortable, knowledge and understanding is safe. We want to rest assured that there isn't a panther lurking in that low brush over there, and are reassured by knowledge that the rain that makes us cold and wet will lead to thriving crops later.

When our scary unknowns are "answered" at low cost, we get some security without risk. This makes thinking creatures unfortunately vulnerable to deception, and allows those of the P.T. Barnum, Karl Rove, Bernie Madoff and Rev. Ted Haggard ilk to thrive. All that has to happen to embed faulty reasoning into a thread of society is for the shysters' predictions and explanations to remain unchallenged. When our belief systems are challenged, that means more work as we have to find or synthesize new explanations or theories. Usually, that means less comfort and some cost. Thus, we hold onto them longer than is logical, useful or even safe.

As our world becomes more complex, as it undeniably has and continues to, fortunately there are many people working to manage the complexity. This is why Google is so phenomenally successful, and why people can make decent money merely managing things. Incidentally, I'd like to know where your claim of the rate of the doubling of human knowledge comes from. It's an interesting theory or off-the-cuff estimate, and has some use, but I doubt that even the more refined "Moore's Law" has been rigorously examined.

Another nit: Of course there was never a man who could honestly claim to have read all the books ever written. This is a big world, and how the hell is he going to know that there isn't a vast library on the other side of the mountain, let alone the other side of the world? In other words, what was that guy selling?

__________________
Ignorance is no sin. Willful ignorance is unforgiveable.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#104
In reply to #103

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 10:52 AM

Someone wrote the very first book. ;-)

Register to Reply
4
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 2963
Good Answers: 93
#71
In reply to #66
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 5:55 PM

Having come out of a family where religion may as well be a family racket, along with sailing, or engineering, I've had cause to think about these things.

Some things I've simply heard, and taken as good explanations as to why rational people maintain irrational beliefs. One explanation is that intelligent educated people become open to abstract thinking.

-not tangible or concrete is part of the definition in my Oxford. Surely the ability to think that way has utility in science and religion and art.

To measure an idea, I myself ask, what harm does it do to believe this?

Generally I believe it is good to help your friends live life. But then it is true that blindly helping your friends do anything they want to do, is not a good idea, if what they want to do is hurt people.

Even if there is only one life, and no afterlife, I am awed enough at this life to be grateful for it and don't discount the here and now.

Had my own vision, and my own taste of death.

I do say that if your spiritual life inhibits you more than it inspires you, it is useless.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#72
In reply to #71

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 6:26 PM

I like your thinking, well stated. GA

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#77
In reply to #71

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 10:37 PM

I do say that if your spiritual life inhibits you more than it inspires you, it is useless.

Well put, and good words to live by.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 122
Good Answers: 6
#150
In reply to #71

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 12:04 PM

I do say that if your spiritual life inhibits you more than it inspires you, it is useless.

I'm glad you said that. Beliefs don't have to be religious, and although mutable, can still be prisons - ones wherein you've willfully slammed the door on yourself.

__________________
Out of the nursery, in old age, ants war and forage. Seeking take what they can find - manna comes in many forms.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3523
Good Answers: 146
#73
In reply to #66
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 6:37 PM

"The belief or faith in an afterlife is counter to rational thinking.".

I'm with Roger on this question.

There is a reason why the law provides for freedom of religion. We have no proof about the afterlife - nobody has. So it is overstepping the bounds of reason and fair discourse to insist that there is or is not an afterlife.

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#74
In reply to #73

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 7:25 PM

I'm with you. I gave you a ga. there appears to be no evidence.

There is however, variation in love, variation in intelligence, and variation in life. There is also apparent infinity in the universe... so we could say there is a spectrum of life, love, and intelligence. (positive and negative)

my particular pov is that the only evidence is the universe, and nothing less, and of course, the universe is arguably infinite.

Therefore God, if she exists, is not the fact that there would be a positive end to the spectrum, (or negative for satan) but that there is a infinite spectrum. That is the astounding part... more astounding that just a point on the spectrum at an extreme level. Infinity is beyond measure, and therefore God, if real, is beyond any understanding of what we can possibly conceive of, because of the fundamental nature of infinity. One would be just as well off to say God is Infinity. We will still know nothing.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#76
In reply to #74

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 8:46 PM

Thanks for the GA at least I think it was aimed my way. This whole God thing reminds me of old catechism class where the first question was "Who made us?" and the given answer was "God made us." That always conjured a second question, even as grade oner, "Who made God?" Of course the answer can never be final as if another god made the God we think we know, then that implies an infinite number of gods. Hmmm... maybe there is a second universe filled with gods created by an ever greater god. This thinking defies logic as I know it and leaves the origin of everything up in question.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#81
In reply to #73

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 11:06 PM

I'm with Roger on this question.

How is kevinm's statement degrading? He is not insisting that there is or is not an after life. He is voicing an opinion that it is a stretch to consider a belief rational (i.e., based in reason) if you cannot produce reasons or evidence for that belief. Irrational, in this sense, is no more a "bad thing" than it is in its other sense re numbers: irrational numbers are just as useful as rational ones (and in practice, probably more useful).

So it is overstepping the bounds of reason and fair discourse to insist that there is or is not an afterlife.

If there is any insistence, it is Roger insisting that there is an after life and that anyone who voices a different belief is degrading Roger. Deeply religious people (as well as others) disagree on the nature and existence of an afterlife. By disagreeing they do not degrade one another.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3523
Good Answers: 146
#100
In reply to #81

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 8:35 AM

Not to take this any further, but in my opinion kevinm's statement is incorrect, and that was my point (forget about 'degrading' - that is a side issue we should not pursue).

Rational thinking involves conclusions drawn logically from premises. In the case we do not have empirical data to serve as a premise, the premises and the conclusions are hypothetical or theoretical. However there may be rational thinking to support either POV on the 'afterlife', depending on what premises you accept as valid starting point.

The problem in debating this is that "awareness" and "life" itself is poorly defined or undefined from an empirical standpoint and the question hinges on the definition of life/awareness chosen as a premise.

Anyway, as Roger pointed out, this forum isn't the place to discuss it, so best put it aside.

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#101
In reply to #100

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 10:06 AM

Not to take this any further, but...

Wait! Didn't you just take it four paragraphs further?

I agree entirely with your second and third paragraphs.

However, for me, the central issue re Roger's response to kevinm is the use of the term "degrade". The side issue is the logic or supportability of kevinm's statement. On that point (the centrality of one or the other) we disagree, and I propose that we should fight endlessly about it.

Of course, I'm kidding, and appreciate your feedback.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#156
In reply to #101

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 4:30 PM

Blink,

If I were to write the sentence "It is irrational to love a Jewish person", by your definition there would be nothing derogatory in my statement. Love, after-all, is irrational. To love anyone is irrational.

However, would a Jewish person be out of line to take offense? Of course not. Because following that logic, it is equally irrational to love a Christian, or Muslim, or Albino for that matter. The specificity is what makes the statement above offensive. By only mentioning Jewish there is an implication is that the "irrationality" has something to do with that particular example.

In the same way, both belief in and not believing in an afterlife are equally irrational as there is zero evidence either way. By only singling out religion the implication is that only the religious view is irrational. That is what I found offensive and degrading (and he retracted it and we're cool, I don't think he had malicious intentions are was a bad person, I just don't think he realized what he was saying, prejudice is subtle that way).

You argument that technically the statement is true and should not be offensive is ridiculous. For instance, here are perfectly true statements:

Black people are sometimes dumb. (all races are sometimes dumb, but the specificity makes this derogatory)

Homosexuals can be promiscuous. (again, so can heterosexuals, but the specificity makes this derogatory)

Conservatives can be racist (all people can be racist, but again specificity....)

American Conservatism have radical elements (So does liberalism but the specificity indicates....)

Hopefully you now can reread the original statement, your take on it, and reconsider your position on my response.

Roger

PS. I hope everyone understands that the examples I picked were what I felt were obviously derogatory remarks. I in no way condone or believe any of those statements, I just wanted to undermine Blink's argument that a sentence that is technically correct shouldn't be considered derogatory.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#157
In reply to #156

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 5:02 PM

Actually, even the statements you used as examples are not necessarily derogatory in and of themselves. There are cases where such statements may be made and not be derogatory, depending upon the context that precedes them (or possibly follows the statements). thus it is the context in which the statement is made that makes it derogatory, not the specificity. Otherwise, all statistical results that relate specific groups or categories would be derogatory solely on the basis of specificity.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#159
In reply to #157

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 5:29 PM

If your suggestion is that in this particular instance...

I am a serious agnostic leaning towards atheist. It had been my intuition that a majority of people of science would feel similar but maybe I am wrong based on this thread. The belief or faith in an afterlife is counter to rational thinking.

... that the context absolves the comment, then please say so explicitly.

Otherwise if you are merely making a pedantic observation, then I'll extend it further by pointing out that you can make any derogatory remark acceptable by prefacing it with:

"A vile person once said (enter any derogatory statement you want)".

See how fun and useless Pedantism is?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#161
In reply to #159

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 5:43 PM

See how fun and useless Pedantism is?

Semantics can be that way also. The case here, instead of useless I would use futile.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#165
In reply to #161

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 6:00 PM

with the amounts of comments, and the trailing off of the initial enthusiasm, I can't wait for part two.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#163
In reply to #159

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 5:48 PM

And again you demonstrate that even in that statement it was not the specificity of the last statement but the context of the statement in the preceding paragraph.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#164
In reply to #159

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 6:00 PM

Success is planned and the outcome expected. One learns more in the mistake than in the success. Mistakes are therefore good if it helps to get at the truth. I do not consider myself vile nor predjudiced even if it is read in the mistake. No offense has been taken but I thought I needed to respond.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#166
In reply to #164

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 6:03 PM

ga about the mistakes

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#168
In reply to #164

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 6:22 PM

hmm, something to consider then. This would imply that a man who makes a lot of mistakes continuously would gain knowledge more rapidly, than one who uses some forethought and is considerate of potential pitfalls, which allows him to account for those mistakes and make appropriate adjustments. Mistakes are only good, if the person who makes the mistakes: a) learns from them and b) lacks the mental capacity to foresee the potential for such mistakes to occur. It seems more frequently I hear people using this learning from mistakes kind of statement as a way to try and minimize to the consequences to themselves due to failures. Back to the drawing board only works until the money runs out, the clients get fed up, and no one wants to pay for any more learning mistakes. I rrally suspect that when you wre to hire someone, you would want them not to make mistakes and be learning on the job, but rather capable of foreseein pitfalls and addressing those beforehand thus not making any mistakes, at least when they are being paid from your own pocket.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#172
In reply to #168

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 6:43 PM

now you getting into the semantics. I believe the point he was trying to make is, One does not go out to make mistakes. It is only from reflection. no matter what prepartion you do to avoid it or make it managable. Even having it managable can be considered a mistake. When a mistake is made, learn from it. Don't chastise it.

As far as hiring a bumbling idiot, which everything he touches turns brown. That would be a bad choice.

with this thread now spinning its tires in this muck, and taking away from the op. without farther adue, I think I'll wait till part 2

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#177
In reply to #156

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/20/2010 3:52 AM

Hi Roger,

On a great many things (including issues that can be contentious), we agree. This is not one of those things.

Kevin wrote:

I am a serious agnostic leaning towards atheist. It had been my intuition that a majority of people of science would feel similar but maybe I am wrong based on this thread. The belief or faith in an afterlife is counter to rational thinking.

I bolded "thread", because I read his remark to mean that the many posts prior to his seemed, to him, pro-faith. I'd agree with him. He was not speaking about you, he was speaking about the tone of the whole thread. His use of "majority of people" supports this.

If he and I were sitting at a bar, I would first admire his courage, because atheism is not well supported in the US (especially) nor in Canada. In the last two places I've lived in the southeast, he could be at high risk, in a bar, of getting ridiculed or punched. So if we were in a bar, I would offer support, not criticism. Why criticize in writing? It would not be the Christian thing to do, would it? I'd have hoped CR4 would be a step or two up from a bar.

He went on in his post to write:

The most honest and devout man who I know is my own brother, a deacon in the Catholic church. He is always seeing positive things in life and works hard as a community giver.

From that and other things in his post, I'd conclude this is not someone out to insult people, he is simply speaking from the heart and describing his own belief system.

The last thing I would do is to tell him that his remark degrades me, or degrades my brother (a Yale divinity PhD), or degrades religious people in general. "Degrades" is a very strong word, not synonymous with derogatory (you seem to use the terms interchangeably), and even derogatory is too strong a word for Kevin's assertion. Calling Sarah Palen a slut is degrading. Calling her dumb is derogatory. Questioning her faith, by saying "Speaking in tongues and faith healing seems over-the-top." is neither degrading nor derogatory. It is simply an opinion.

Kevin's assertion was an opinion.

I cannot imagine anyone of true faith to be slightly bothered... let alone insulted... let alone degraded by Kevin's remark. Of course most of what we take on faith is not rational -- that is very nearly a definition of faith, for many people.

Your examples have no logical equivalent to what Kevin wrote. He did not pick out any person or group for criticism: he did not write "Religious people are sometimes dumb." He did not write "Religious people can be promiscuous." Nothing he wrote was insulting (let alone degrading) to any individual or group.

I don't believe in reincarnation. Do you think that insults Hindu's or my wife, who does believe in reincarnation?

You argument that technically the statement is true and should not be offensive is ridiculous.

Where are you getting this stuff? Are you writing this just to be insulting, just to get even? Are you saying that I am arguing two independent points (the statement is true, the statement should not be offensive) or are you saying that I am arguing that because a statement is true it should not be insulting. I have not argued the second sense. I know plenty of stupid people. Calling them stupid is insulting.

I just wanted to undermine Blink's argument that a sentence that is technically correct shouldn't be considered derogatory.

You imagined that I made such an argument. I made no such argument. But nevertheless, I certainly appreciate your willingness to undermine it.

When did you give up being a criminal?

It is your prerogative to be as abrasive as you want. My advice was only this:

Perhaps I am being a buttinski here, but your statement "That is your opinion, and one that degrades someone who believes differently from you." seems unfair.

I don't share all of kevinm's beliefs, but his opinion does not degrade me in any way. Your suggestion that his opinion is somehow degrading to another could turn the discussion in a direction that none of us, I think, would want to see it go. "Degrade" is an emotionally loaded term that seems confrontational.

You'll note I didn't characterize your response as ridiculous.

You wrote:

and he retracted it and we're cool, I don't think he had malicious intentions are was a bad person, I just don't think he realized what he was saying, prejudice is subtle that way

So what, now Kevin is a moron who didn't know what he was saying? First, he did not retract his statement to which you reacted so negatively. He wrote this: I will retract the pro-faith tone after rereading this thread. It seems most of the thread entries are advocating mutual respect between religion and science.

He went on not to retract, but to reiterate his statement: In no way do I mean to disrespect anyone who believes in an afterlife. It is only my opinion that there is a lack of rationalism in an afterlife.

Roger, you are making up things that you think I wrote, making up things that you think Kevin wrote, and imagining that simple opinions degrade you.

I'm not so sure I'm looking forward to part 2.

Hopefully you now can reread the original statement, your take on it, and reconsider your position on my response.

I did that. My position has become more entrenched. It seems that you are being intentionally insulting, whereas at first I thought you were just being careless.

PS: Frankly, I think your choice of wording of the post to which I am replying is in very poor taste. One patently offensive example would have much more than adequate. But that's your choice.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#179
In reply to #177

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/20/2010 7:38 AM

I never said he was trying to insult anyone and yes my examples are exactly equivalent. Atheism is no more or less rational than any other faith based system. By singling out religion, by that specificity, he implied that it isn't. No matter how you want to spin it, the statement:

The belief or faith in an afterlife is counter to rational thinking.

Is not an ok statement. This statement implies that belief in no afterlife is rational, that is of course incorrect. Both beliefs are irrational. The only rational belief is to say "I don't know if there is an afterlife".

Yes, religious fundamentalism is a problem. Any faith based fundamentalism is a problem. The minute someone believes their faith based system to be inherently correct to the exclusion of others (in this case "more rational") all kinds of negative consequences can occur.

Blink, you are wrong about this, I'm sorry you can't see that, it doesn't mean you're a bad person, but prejudice is subtle and insidious and has a way of expressing itself in seemingly innocent ways. There exists today a prejudice against religion born in response to the irrational religious fundamentalism that exists today.

See, I wrote "irrational religious fundamentalism and you knew I meant it in a negative way.

You get the last word, I won't comment on this subject again.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#180
In reply to #179

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/20/2010 9:19 AM

I would agree.

To paraphrase, I believe in those that are seeking the truth, but I doubt anyone that claims to have found it.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#181
In reply to #180

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/20/2010 9:28 AM

"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."- Wilson Mizner.

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#144
In reply to #66
Find in discussion

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 7:47 PM

GA Roger, I agree wholeheartedly

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#79

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 10:43 PM

Roger this is thoughtful, reflective, and engaging work.

I would like your permission to use in my critical thinking classes, As you show thought through time as a process, not merely fashion.

I am saddened that the conversation devolved into the Science vs Religion thing.

That diversion didn't really add any value.

I am looking forward to part 2! milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 11119
Good Answers: 918
#80
In reply to #79

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 10:54 PM

"I am saddened that the conversation devolved into the Science vs Religion thing."

My previous post asks the question of what fills the vacuum when people loose their trust in science.

Genetically we are predisposed to reconcile that which can not be explained. When science becomes too cryptic and/or the scientific leaders are looked upon with suspicion, where do people turn?

Maybe religion (or any kind of "faith") isn't a bad explanation for things that are too hard for many to grasp because it supplies a plausible explanation to bring order to a perceived universe where chaos appears to rule.

My use of the term universe is not necessarily cosmological, but can be construed in many ways.

I am looking forward to part 2 as well. Roger has outdone himself with this blog. Bravo!

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#82
In reply to #80

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 11:14 PM

The comment that you quoted was not a result of your contribution, AH;

I am not especially impressed with explanations that make things easier to grasp if they are merely plausible. "Vulcan screwing up my flight to frankfurt tomorrow" isn't especially helpful.

Santayana said it best: "It is helpful for a system of philosophy to be fundamentally true."

I am comfortable with knowing that as a human I have an essentially limited tool kit. I'm ok with getting there one step at a time.

And participating in a profession and culture were lessons learned can be peer reviewed, challenged, and held to rules of evidence and procedure to prevent false doctrine from ascending merely by power of advocates/institutions.

When you put 2 moles of H in and one mole of O in, it always comes out the same.

I'm quite OK with enjoying/appreciating the mystery.

Dancing over the abyss (my "location" )has been my tagline since I joined CR4. It shows the positive joys of our human condition.

As the lyrics of one of my favorite Santana songs exhorts: "Dance, sister, Dance."

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 859
Good Answers: 33
#83
In reply to #82

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/16/2010 11:21 PM

Great message at this point in the journey--Thanks for some clarity..

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#110
In reply to #80

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 12:27 PM

I believe the religious discussion was inexorably linked to the original topic. In the past severe penalties were paid by scientist for opposing organized religion. Even in our enlightened society religious opposition impedes certain areas of research. It is unfortunate that religion vs. science has been excessively dwelled on.

I believe Rogers separate box example is the proper approach for the scientist, unfortunately science still has to deal with religious extremist. Certainly religious extremist are not the only factor impeding scientific progress. Hopefully in the continuing discussion other areas will be more thoroughly explored.

You wrote: Maybe religion (or any kind of "faith ) isn't a bad explanation for things that are too hard for many to grasp"

I use Newtonian mechanics, thermal dynamics and ohms law in my profession. I have a basic understanding of a variety of physics topics. Even if I had a more substantial background in the other areas I couldn't possibly verify every new or existing theory.

A certain amount of faith is a necessity,at least for me.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#114
In reply to #110

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 1:59 PM

There are a number of similarities between "science" and "religion":

1) Virtually all logical processes begin at some point with "certain unassailable truths"- i.e., assumptions that must be accepted on the basis of faith, because they can not be disproved.

2) Both "religion" and "science" are motivated by a desire to understand the world we live in.

3) Both "religious" heretics and "scientific" heretics (i.e., those that challenge the commonly accepted theory of the day) are, at best, socially ostracized, or possibly imprisoned or worse.

4) Political powers will indiscriminately draw upon whatever "religious" or "scientific" theory best suits their purpose.

5) Both "religious" and "scientific" dogma are subject to change over time, as new evidence/new relationships/new needs develop within society. Except the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That one is unassailable...

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cypress Calif
Posts: 741
Good Answers: 23
#136
In reply to #114

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 3:09 PM

You said: "Political powers will indiscriminately draw upon whatever "religious" or "scientific" theory best suits their purpose.

Your post was quite thought provoking. Politics and science are intrinsically linked on multiple levels. A prime example would be the "Space Race" of the fifties and sixties.

Far from being appalled the Eisenhower administration was elated the Soviet Union was first to orbit and artificial satellite, sputnik established space as open territory allowing Eisenhower the opportunity he desired to orbit spy satellites. The Eisenhower administration was completely unconcerned with space exploration, or manned spaceflight.

You said: Both "religious" heretics and "scientific" heretics (i.e., those that challenge the commonly accepted theory of the day) are, at best, socially ostracized, or possibly imprisoned or worse.

The politics of science and industry as well determined the direction and application of science along with creating heretics.

The running conflict between Edison and Tesla is a prime example. Certainly Edison's "political clout" delayed the implementation of AC electrical service and contributed to Tesla's identification as a scientific heretic.

__________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man" George Shaw
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#88
In reply to #79

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 12:16 AM

I am saddened that the conversation devolved into the Science vs Religion thing.

I am not sure that it has devolved. Theology and religion were both brought up early in Roger's very good composition. I think that any discussion of current philosophical trends is empty and incomplete without discussion of religious trends. Most people's individual philosophies are informed by their religious views, and most philosophical schools of thought have a clearly identifiable religious perspective (e.g., "God is dead.").

Many people go through life nearly unconscious. But others make conscious decisions regarding the course of their lives, and many of the scientists who have consciously decided to pursue science (rather than simply pursuing science because it is fun or interesting or easy) do so for what are essentially religious or religio-philosophical reasons.

I too am looking forward to part 2.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 12:18 AM

I want to thank each and everyone of you for responding to my post so far.

With regards to Part I, I left a bit of a cliff hanger. What should our current philosophical age be called? I have my own opinion, which I will present and attempt to justify in Part II, but I would be interested in your own opinions. Plus I think it would be great to get away from the religion/science discussion for a bit if possible (I'm afraid that discussion may lead to this post being shut down).

If you had to describe an overarching philosophy spanning 1950 to present, what would it be called? Perhaps you think that there has been more than one since 1950, if so, please tell us.

Renaissance
Enlightenment
Romanticism
Realism
???

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#91
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 12:34 AM

I would call it the Age of Fear.

starting with the cold war, and a bunch of other pointless and expensive wars, skirmishs, genocides, and a massive amount of poverty, crime, corruption, murder, gangs, mafia, drugs wars, child soldiers, WMD, global terrorism, global inflation, natural disasters, child abductions, idiot-savants-presidents, climate change, bad food, obesity, no health care, government mandated insurance, armageddon, the end times, etc.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1790
Good Answers: 87
#146
In reply to #91

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 9:33 PM

The dawn of the golden age...

Peace movements, the end of communist Russia and the cold war, fewer and fewer lives lost in skirmishes, occasional genocides but nothing like the past, massive increases in the standard of living-all around the world, radical reduction in crime, murder and corruption, countries that are self governing enough that it does not matter if their leaders are idiots, plentiful food, cures for obesity, radical improvement in health care resulting in a radical increase in life expectancy, transitioning the benefits of these advances to the general population, peace, and after all the birth pains, the birth of something so bright I gotta wear shades...

I am a great believer in engineering solutions for real and perceived problems. Climate change and many of the others outlined in Chris's post are very solvable. As we solve them, the standard of living of all humans will increase.

If Moore law applies across technology, and assuming that it still holds. By the time I am a very old man, say 40 years from now, I may well become a young one again, and move off to Mars or further to give up some space for people here.

Again, the future is so bright I gotta wear shades!

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#147
In reply to #146

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 10:50 PM

would you believe I'm an optimist?

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#94
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 1:39 AM

How about "The Age of Pragmatism"? I.e., "if it works, don't fix it."

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#95
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 1:44 AM

At some point, we may want to think about postmodernism, social construction, "deconstruction," moral relativism, etc. These concepts (or anticoncepts, as the case may be) seem to underlie a lot of current discourse. I don't know if that is the direction Part II may take, or what else may be perceived as a current philosophical trend.

In the CR4 venue, philosophical issues are more interesting to me than religious controversy, which seems not to be your intent. I will be glad to save my wildly truculent religious opinions for various Amazon forums....

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#97
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 7:28 AM

Technological Materialism. The "mostly demonstrated" belief that technology can solve our existential problems. Better technology= better quality of existence.

Or Technological Triumphalism. The best technology wins. He or she with the best technology wins. (Perhaps its greatest investigation is Jared diamonds "guns Germs And Steel, which explores why the western "CARGO CULTURE" prevailed over other non western non cargo cultures. (until they hit AFrican tropics...))

Until we run up against the limits of carrying capacity, which is the real cultural conflict now between greens "the planet has reached its limits" vs the technological materialists' "Our technology can mitigate whatever consequences."

What has changed,I think, is the recognition that western standard of living is not 'sustainable' if undertaken by every human on the planet.

I would caption the Next epoch as informed by, if not the thing itself, "consequentialism." A singular focus on the negatives of and repudiation of the prior epoch of Technological Materialism. Its Defining statement is probably "The Precautionary Principle."

Thanks for asking for the contribution, Roger.

I'll not sully the thread by arguing one side or the other... This thread is one of the jewels that makes CR4 a great forum.

And kudos to whoever mentioned ken wilbur earlier, he sheds great thinking on this topic from cultural theme perspective.

Great job!

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 3523
Good Answers: 146
#98
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 7:54 AM

If you had to describe an overarching philosophy spanning 1950 to present, what would it be called?

Drat, Roger, I was counting on you to reveal that in Part II!

My impression about it as of now, is that the expectation of science to provide the answers to all questions, spanning the practical to the mystical, is a distinguishing feature of our age. Downside issues (logical extremes) I would describe as the fragmentation/compartmentalization of knowledge - the creation of specialists who are separated from each other's knowledge: the absence of synthesis or at least the slow rate of synthesis and translation of science from narrow experimental contexts to general truths. (Also the disinformation produced by translating single experiments into public beliefs, and the disillusionment that comes afterwards).

A second issue (maybe dominating the later half of this age) that produces disillusionment with science is the involvement of industry as the driving force behind research, at this point to the exclusion (or near exclusion) of pure research funded in the public interest. It's obvious to me that your take on this as a physicist may be different from my POV as a biologist, so I'm looking forward to your insights from that perspective. But the existence of motives other than getting to "the truth" in science is very troublesome in an age that is very much centered on science as the provider of answers.

I also think that 'realism' and the social darwinist issue is far from dead. It is a corruption that lurks behind the veil of biological/medical science, and scientific culture is poorly equipped to deal with it.

The science of emergent phenomena/complexity theory holds the promise of leading us out of the 'fragmented' condition, but as yet it has not done so (IMHO).

__________________
incus opella
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#102
In reply to #98

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 10:20 AM

You Wrote:"Drat, Roger, I was counting on you to reveal that in Part II!"

I will give my opinion in part II, and why I believe what I believe, but I wanted to get everyone thinking along those lines.

By the way, Part II comes next week.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#118
In reply to #102

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 8:13 PM

Dear all

What a wonderful place CR4 is. Just take Roger for example and the effort, determination and original thought he has put into phrasing an idea (in two parts) and then posting it. Kudos Roger, I just have to say it again.

Not only has this opened my eyes to the intellectual abilities of the participants on this thread but has encouraged me to take some time out and ad my own thoughts. As we all know the man that has read every book does not exist and even if, he would have a new book to read every few seconds, that is, if all of us would publish that book one has written but not yet taken it out of the closet.

I know, that if I read what I have stated bellow, in a couple of days, I will kick my self for not being more thorough in trying to avoid misunderstandings. The context and the style of this is opposite to what I am doing on a scientific basis since many months (really years) now, so, what ever I write will be on topic and off topic at the same time. "Dicotymistic" in all parts, just not avoidable, in any discipline one could think of. The paradox rules.

The topic/sequence I have chosen is "Is there life after death?". I am aware that many other subjects mentioned here would be of some nit picking value but I thought I should stick to this little pet hate of mine.

That must be the most arrogant question of all time. ( Arrogant, the act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption. Closely related to the act of arrogating.) Can't remember were I found it and sorry if I sound patronizing in even supplying this definition to the so well learned participants in this thread.

Who does Human think he is? In my eyes, definitely not some thing worth while enough to be born again. I mean the individual, who is afraid to die and clings to the hope that he will get another chance, to go where ever any religion suggests and take up the same physical or spiritual space. If the attraction/promise/aim is a world full of virgins or a hell or heaven, it does not make a difference. The completely irrational tendency to believe in such unfounded crap (Can one say crap on CR4?) is a form of organized crime. Poisoning some one is a crime, isn't it?

There is no doubt that the great spirits, the "true humans" (thanks Friedrich) in the past have left their mark on our world. Be it the authors of any high spirited text or their followers who can then, at their own whim, rewrite history, usually asked for by the bosses of the prevailing belief systems. Enslavement of the minds and spirits of the undereducated and not only when it comes to postulating religion.

The intricate, formalized explanations in all the science disciplines have to be ranked as such: high spirited discoveries of truth and the repeatability of such. Any time, every time. I will obey to that and bow my head before the giants of science but not before the ridiculous attempts of any religious leaders who I have no time or sympathy for. We have proof of science and the richness of the possibilities/combination's to use those laws, particles to our advantage, to be able to do any thing I wish, unless proven wrong/absurd or deemed to dangerous to test, which would stop everything in its tracks, no if or buts. Scientific fraud will be found out, were as a spiritual crime can linger and influence decisions and acts of history for generations before and after they have been put into words.

Back to life after death. Why would nature suddenly become as stingy as to not allow for a new creation all and every time. Why would some one have the audacity to claim that he/she would be worth while to be recreated, reincarnated? That is a completely arrogant position but so typical of the delusion some people in the past or even nowadays postulate. It is not about the individual but the legacy he leaves. Some will live forever even without being supported by organized crime.

There is no need for nature to even recreate a field of daisies or a snowflake the same, so how dare one person would want to be that same infinitesimally small configuration of (still purposely) aligned molecules? Until and up to what stage? Perfectness? What a load of self centered thinking and at the same time so castrating and limiting. The praying for a life after death is a waste of time. One should pray that more people contribute to the now and then and not waste time with illusion, delusion, fantasies, even if they have been postulated for thousands of years.

I am not saying that there is no spirit; this thread proves that there is and not only this thread but the many other soap boxes around. When I was a child I saw a man standing on a soapbox and admired, not what he was saying, (I was not educated enough to understand) but what he endured willingly to keep his voice on air, no matter what the hecklers where throwing at him. That was my first encounter with braveness and it has stuck.

The time we have in the now and then is what we have, all else is in the realm of Maya. We should treasure the cleanliness of science and not have it influenced by childish anecdotes, miracles, or plain untruths of past times, at all and never. A well performing humanly engineered system will interest me more, any day. Nature will do what ever she wants, were, when, with who and at what time. I'll keep studying her and pick up some tricks on the way.

The insights and discoveries, even if they prove to have been discovered before, are more worth to me than any enlightening religious experience and I have had those, or better one, so, I am in a position to compare. A religious experience comes as a surprise and can not be asked for or repeated. A discovery experience can be achieved and repeated if one puts in the studies to have one again. Inspired by what, I don't know but it must have happened to all of us at some time, I think.

I hope I have not made a fool of myself, (lack of time for editing) which has happened in the past, but I was encouraged by all of you. To just let go and take the time out and do my deed. I feel better for it and can now get back to splitting the atom, although it has been done many times before. It is just more productive than splitting hairs and comparing texts of religious or other thought programs. I am a free man and seek knowledge not forgiveness or heaven or hell or the virgins thrown in by some.

Thanks again for creating this thread Roger. Like the others I am looking forward to part II.

I'd rather spend my time here than in church, that's for sure, Ky.

PS: You thought I would "do a Nietzsche" on you Roger, didn't you?

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23647
Good Answers: 420
#99
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 8:17 AM

What to call the period in one word. is there a word for the definition of "Progress fueled by Suspicion" or does one have to make a word up for it?

Progress and Suspicion

It seems to be a synergy between the two feeding off of each other.

And there were two possible outcomes.

Either the two destroying each other or strengthening each other

p911

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 581
Good Answers: 15
#105
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 11:05 AM

The Age of Management? (Mundane and somewhat unsatisfying, I know.)

The primary driver of thought and decisions in the current era is growing complexity, and growing, well, everything. As a species, we're starting to push against the entire planet's capacity to sustain us, the result being conflict, misery and frustration on unprecedented scales. At the same time, I feel this age has really crossed (or is crossing) some important threshold(s) in understanding. I feel we humans are in the process of making another Great Discovery, similar to codifying gravity, harnessing electricity or casting off geocentrism. But that could just be my reading diet of science fiction talking.

At the same time, all this thought both high-minded (philosophers and academics) and "in the weeds" (engineers, tradesmen, military strategists, researchers) - both flavors being variously correct or incorrect - is an effort to Manage what we have wrought and are producing.

Thus, in order to continue to prosper a large fraction of us is devoting thought to solving really big real-world problems - I could vote for the Age of Pragmatism, too. In a few hundred years, I find it plausible that philosophers will identify the need to manage our specie's entire world as the most important activity we're engaged in, and, if we're successful, our most important accomplishment.

__________________
Ignorance is no sin. Willful ignorance is unforgiveable.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#107
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 11:50 AM

What should our current philosophical age be called?

I think it is hard to avoid the term postmodern, nebulous though that term is. Realism, modernism, and postmodernism all relate to philosophy and to art -- in cloudy, sometimes contradictory ways.

There are "postmodern" philosophers who reject the notion of postmodern. However, for this discussion, I think the term carries with it a connotation that is important to this discussion. I think that the Wikipedia definition is pretty good:

Regarding postmodern culture (i.e., postmodern in a more general sense) a key part off the Wikipedia article on that subject applies:

  • Postmodernist thought is an intentional departure from modernist approaches that had previously been dominant. The term "postmodernism" comes from its rejection of the "modern" scientific mentality developed during the Enlightenment.

Particularly as regards the philosophical underpinnings of anti-science, (but even in a more general sense) I think it is counter-productive to avoid the discussion of the influence of religion on culture, philosophy, and science. I note that we have gone for 100 posts so far in this discussion, that your original post mentions religion and theology, and that several posts have brought up the influence of religion on science. The fact that very few post have been voted off-topic and that many have been given GA votes, indicates to me that we can debate issues in which religion has an affect without the discussion dissolving into name calling. (Your well-thought-out original post perhaps attracts people with some patience and tolerance.)

For me, at least, I cannot think about anti-science and fail to think about the stickers that were on my kids' textbooks. Nor can I think about stem cell research and fail to think about religious influence in that area. The same is true re AIDS research. If large segments of a population view AIDS as God's punishment for living with a particular gender orientation, then funding for AIDS research is affected. One cannot pretend that religion and science exist side-by-side, without tension, if one wants to understand the many causes of anti-science, I think. In Wikipedia's article re the Enlightenment one can see the difficulty in separating philosophy from religion:

  • More broadly, the Enlightenment period is marked by increasing empiricism, scientific rigor, and reductionism, along with increasing questioning of religious orthodoxy.

For your discussion, I prefer the term postmodern, because in its rejection of modernism (or realism, or the extension of the enlightenment) and its embrace of globalism and cultural relativity, it has put everything on the table for review: science, religion, ethics, morality, etc. Walking among us, there are Pagans and Wiccans, who in many settings are treated with respect. (Contrast this with the early enlightenment and modernist age, when the Salem Witch Trials took place.) Science has gone from a central position to one option among many for understanding the world.

Postmodernism connotes (for me) a "throw the baby out with the bath water" school of thought -- which is probably not a completely unfair (albeit oversimplified) assessment. It also, I think, suggests for many people (I have no evidence for this -- its gut feel) a certain temporary, transitional quality -- it's a phase we are going through: if it's after modern what is it before? Integral philosophers might call post modern, pre-integral.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#137
In reply to #107

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 3:22 PM

Although postmodernism is widely accepted as the generic philosophy descriptor of our time, (as I said in my novel above) the term is nebulous -- it means different things in different contexts, and even in a given context, it means different things to different people.

The rate at which we acquire and disseminate knowledge keeps increasing, and as a result, the rate at which we churn through philosophies (both local and global) also increases. Some people will dig in their heals to retain their existing philosophical approach, while others will actively study the new philosophies presented to them through increased contact with others throughout the world. They will take what they like from other philosophies and discard what is uncomfortable in their previous. Christians meditating in the style of Tibetan Buddhists is not uncommon.

(This process is a phenomenal luxury of the developed world -- for most people, simply having food and shelter is the whole struggle of life. For most people, a philosophy is imposed upon them. That can cause tremendous resentment. [Imagine you are a Puritan in Massachusetts in 1700. A bunch of 2010 LA folks sweep in and impose their values upon you, and want to sell you their Lexi and thong bathing suits. You'd hate them, no doubt to the point of wanting to kill them to save your children from life in hell.])

The time when the US led in commercialization of the world has drawn to a close. The time when the best-selling Buicks would be designed in the US is no longer, with the new LaCrosse having been designed in China. It is a dramatic (and uncomfortable) new world for the old guard, and an equally dramatic new world for the new guard.

You can now pull into a McDonald's in NYC, and have your order taken by a call center in India. You are a teen in NYC looking for a summer job. For you, is globalization good or bad?

We have choices and challenges that have come about largely because of globalization, and globalization has exposed people to all sorts of philosophical alternatives. Depending upon where you are and where you have been, there is a lot to love and a lot to hate. Globalization started, arguably, with the jet plane, so there is no small irony in the use of jet planes to react against globalization.

Those who feel disenfranchised by globalization can join hands and sway to "We are the World" or they can take up arms as our forefathers (in the US) did. They can fight the things they hate: commercialism, conspicuous consumption, science, godlessness...

So... perhaps a better name for this period is (Friedman's) Flat World. I'd guess that there is no more widely read book on the subject of globalization.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#145
In reply to #137

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 9:19 PM

Great Stuff Blink,

except for this one; "Globalization started, arguably, with the jet plane"

Transatlantic Zeppelins, Transatlantic Radio, Transatlantic Cable, Strategic intelligence, war and money. (especially the 'waterloo' section) Ocean-going steamships

my point being, communications, business, war, and banking were all being conducted on a global scale long before the jet plane.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 2963
Good Answers: 93
#111
In reply to #89

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 1:41 PM

The era is the second Bottleneck.

We were nearly wiped out once before, before we knew much more than how to make a shelter from weeds, start a fire, or kill with more than a club or a rock in our hands.

Now we know how to fly even to the Moon, but so many are poor and uneducated, and there are so many of us on this little place that the graduation from animal, to big time species is in serious doubt.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#113

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/17/2010 1:51 PM

Wow lots of fodder in this thread. Thanks Roger. My Names:

The Age of Consumerism. We have more...more...and still more of everything and are quick to chuck out the old (for better) even if it is not broke. (just a slight shift or backlash with the hippie movement)

The Age of Communication or Globalism. This is partly when the rest of the world discovers consumerism. But also its an age when news is now, our friends are at our fingertips, and I can communicate with CR4ers from around the world. Globalization will lead to a much larger middle class worldwide.

And finally the Age of Environmentalism . Environmental issues will become an imperative as a result of consumerism. (I think environmental issues will be very important sooner than we think)

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#120
In reply to #113

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 12:27 AM

Kevin,

When you consider that ~75% of the world's population lives on a dollar a day or less, and have been like that for some time, I'm not really sure its appropriate to say we have more more more... but certainly that is true of first tier economies. (for which I am grateful to be part of)

Communicationalism & Globalism & Environmentalism = Yes.

However I don't think Globaization will lead to a larger middle class. We are definitely reading different materials on that. Globalization has nearly killed North America imho.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#125
In reply to #120

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 1:43 AM

North America has nearly killed North America. Globalization has very little to do with it...

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#140
In reply to #125

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 5:10 PM

I'm replying to you, and Chris, and Kevin, when I say that I think you are all correct... or not, re the spread or shrinking of the middle class.

I helped Ford globalize their production of car radios and clocks, several decades ago. At the time, the same radios were being built in Landsdale, PA and Sao Paulo, Brazil. I came in to describe how to go about training the operators and maintenance people in a new factory under construction in Mexico. At the time, the labor rate in Landsdale was $12.50; in Brazil it was $2.50 and in Mexico, it was going to be $.50. ( I remember these easily because the ratio was 5:1 from place to place.) The Landsdale plant was shut down soon thereafter, and it was easy to imagine a time in which the Brazilian plant might be shut down too, or have its production reduced. Lives were (to an extent) wrecked in Landsdale, with workers once making $12.50 lucky to find $5.00 burger-flipping jobs.

If I were working for Ford PR, I could have shown what a great thing the plant in Sao Paulo had been, providing really excellent jobs for people who might otherwise have to live in the cardboard boxes that stretched for miles just a couple miles from the gated mansions of Sao Paulo. (I'd say that sewage flowed in the streets, but there were no streets for that.) Every expectation would be that the jobs provided in Mexico would be a great thing too. Per Henry's original idea, these workers would be able to buy his cars... but of course the math doesn't work -- at $.50 an hour, you'd have no money left after buying food.

Who's exploited? The workers in Mexico lined up by the thousands for the jobs. Could Ford pay more? Not if they wanted to compete with GM, who were doing the same thing. Not if they wanted to honor their commitment to their stockholders to deliver the best stockholder value. Corporations have, by design, limited liability, and no conscience.

Capitalism is an easy game for those with capital, and a very rough game for those without. Horatio Alger stories are myths. Don't expect thanks when you tell someone on the unemployment line to just work hard and make a fortune.

I have often pondered, did I do good work for Ford? I certainly received plenty of kudos -- but not from anyone in Landsdale. In the Brazilian plant, people were beautifully dressed (far better dressed than those in the Landsdale plant), were proud of what they were doing, and did it well. Virtually every worker there would say good things about Ford. The future Mexican workers would say good things about Ford. Being part of globalization could be seen as a very good thing.

But the Landsdale workers were pushed out of the middle class, and the Mexican and Brazilian workers were not making enough to enter.

What I hope is that Mexicans will be able make a living wage, and that Americans will be able to adjust to lower wages, to be able to compete with the rest of the world. But what are all these lower middle class people going to be making, and who will buy this stuff? And if we continue to crank out endless tons of stuff we really don't need, how quickly will we run out of resources and how quickly will we make the world unlivable?

Unfortunately, the math does not work for a large percentage of the world's population making a living wage.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#141
In reply to #140

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 5:46 PM

Years ago, I was involved in an analysis to determine whether to open a new plant in Mississippi or a new plant in Mexico. This was for a company building wiring harnesses for Ford. I don't remember the wages exactly, but the hourly rate in Mississippi (non-union) was the same as the day rate in the chosen site in Mexico (the company had operating plants in both regions, and the new facility was intended to expand production, not displace existing facilities. We had access to actual production figures from both plants). After all was said and done, the delivered cost of the finished product at the Ford plant was exactly the same. The main issue was that quality was better in the US plant (less rework and scrap), production levels were higher, hidden costs (taxes, social security, etc.) were actually higher in Mexico (as a percentage of wages paid), and, of course, transportation costs differed. The new plant was opened in Mississippi (utilizing a building that had been abandoned by some other manufacturer years before)- construction costs of the facility was the deciding factor (less to refurbish the old building than to build new from scratch). The difference in direct labor costs (salaries paid to workers) made no differrence at all in the final delivered cost of the product. I do not know if these plants are still operating...

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#142
In reply to #140

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 6:06 PM

Jeez USD$12.50/hr is not much more than min wage in Ontario now CDN$10.25/hour. The average auto worker wage in Canada is $30-35.00/hour. As our dollar is currently running par or slightly ahead of the US dollar, it does make one wonder. Is the plant in Landsdale old and in need of upgrades? Our autoworkers have been losing jobs but still hanging in there despite higher wages.

One aspect of removing jobs to places of Mexico is certainly a lower job cost but if their infrastructure is bad enough to allow sewage into the non-streets then as part of NAFTA we should insist that the health and environment be a part of the relocation package. These demands will force places like Mexico (not sure about Brazil) to conform to a standard and raise the workers value. Municipalities in these countries should also place demands to help in making life better. Where does the sewage from Sao Paulo discharge. If they are major polluters then we should force these companies to stop playing the bottom line and using these countries as slavery was at one time. I suspect there is always an opportunity to negotiate changes in these countries at the time of relocation. We need political backbone to stand up and tell the large corps who hold out their hands at the public trough. They are using the workers as pawns to negotiate. The government can place high tariffs on import vehicles from countries causing pollution. These tariffs should offset the company profits gained by using a lower less trained manpower.

All it takes is balls.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#148
In reply to #142

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 1:14 AM

Jeez USD$12.50/hr is not much more than min wage in Ontario now CDN$10.25/hour. The average auto worker wage in Canada is $30-35.00/hour. As our dollar is currently running par or slightly ahead of the US dollar, it does make one wonder. Is the plant in Landsdale old and in need of upgrades?

You may have missed the part where I wrote "several decades ago". This would have been in 1986 or 1987. Even then, $12.50 would not have been great pay for the auto industry in general, but these people were electronics workers, where the small fingers and better dexterity of women were advantages. Women then, and to a lesser extent now, did not command the same pay as men.

The plant in Landsdale was fairly old, but the equipment was modern for its time, with vision systems to check circuit board population, etc.

One aspect of removing jobs to places of Mexico is certainly a lower job cost but if their infrastructure is bad enough to allow sewage into the non-streets then as part of NAFTA we should insist that the health and environment be a part of the relocation package.

The plant, the area immediately around it, and the other factories in the area looked much like industrial areas in the US or Canada. It's the living conditions of the people in the area that are so poor. Companies like Ford can afford to invest in the infrastructure around the plant, but cannot create the extensive infrastructure needed for the people. I think that Ford and other multinationals generally improve the local economies, just as the Kia and Hyundai plants not far from where I live have improved the local economy (in areas where the textile industry had dried up, having gone to China). Even the "bad guys" like Nike, who have employed child labor in Pakistan and Cambodia no doubt have a positive influence on the local economies -- those practices were not invented by Nike or brought to those countries by Nike.

A company like Ford would argue: Hey, we're investing a bunch of money and going to bring good jobs to this country. Isn't that enough? The US government does not want its corporations to be at a disadvantage relative to the corporations of other countries, so they don't want US corporations to invest in additional infrastructure if German or Japanese or Korean companies are not required to do so also. There is no broad-reaching international treaty on how to ethically exploit the cheap labor in third world and developing countries.

It seems likely that as China's and India's middle classes continue to grow and create demand for more products, those countries could follow in the footsteps of Japan, looking for cheap labor and other places to build things. Perhaps the Chinese owners of Jaguar will decide that it makes sense to build Jaguars in the US.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#158
In reply to #148

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 5:18 PM

Thanks Blink,

I did miss that time line and thought of it only after posting, drat. I like your logic and contribution to this thread and feel free to YELL at me if needed.

It is too bad we do not have a number to fix a tariff when cars are made in third world countries. Wait, maybe we do, the UN uses an index to describe a countries progress and its called the human development index HDI. It is based on literacy, health, longevity, and well being on individuals. I wonder if that index could be applied to large companies relocating to take advantage of another country's woe. If the corps don't spend the money in the relocated country the equivalent tax would be collected at the delivered country. I am sure the company would likely want to spend the money in the third world. That could be in higher wages or developing sewage, water, or other worthwhile investment that would edge up that country's HDI. In other words the cost to the company would be the same if they want to sell it to the home country or other group of countries that subscribe to this type of tariff. I am sure there would be lots of bellyaching from China but in the end they would accept because it would move the technology towards them anyway. Cars in China would be cheaper and the market is huge.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#126
In reply to #120

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 2:41 AM

When I was in high school, I remember reading a book by Pearl Buck called The Good Earth. It was about China in the 1920s and 1930s and the way of life that normal people lived. It was about survival in desperate times without anyone to help. People boiled grass for making soup and scrounged a meager day to day survival. The desperation Pearl Buck portrayed never left me.

Today the Chinese are a very fast growing economy. I think there are now more billionaires in China that America. I will try to find the support for that statement but it was recently reported in our local rag. A friend of mine runs an import business with China and raves about the way of life they enjoy. It is quickly moving towards consumerism such as we in the west lived this past 60 years or so. I think we can look at China as one example but Japan, Korea, the Asian Tigers are all areas of the world moving to consumerism or are already there. These economies are growing as a result of globalization. These are the areas where all our manufacturing jobs are disappearing. This geographic area encompasses nearly one third of the so called poor.

Emerging economies like Brazil and India are not far behind developing the same consumer demands. It may take time but another 50 years is a short historical time.

I truly believe that with all the communication available a movement towards consumerism has begun that is unstoppable. And yes it will affect western jobs and we in the west must adapt or we will get creamed. We need to be smarter and invest in education and research to hang on to our global position. The Mars mission is a good bet if only to spur R/D.

It will take a little longer for places like Africa and parts of South America to catch up. Mostly it will be an aspect of poor government, corruption, and global apathy. Places like the middle east are squandering their wealth and that raises another topic I will not dwell on here. Still there is vast wealth and poverty simultaneously existing in the Middle East.

All in all, the world is mixing economically, culturally, and philosophically. As the world gets smaller; economies, cultures, and religions will tend to blend. The middle class will not look quite the same and may be a bit poorer than we know. So might the west blend globally as a middle class. The forces creating the mixing are great and short of war or natural disaster, unstoppable.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#128
In reply to #126

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 11:33 AM

Excellent Kevin,

but all of that is part of what I call Globalization.. dissemination of knowledge to 3rd world countries by hook or by crook. Outsourcing of manufacturing tools and labour to 3rd world countries, and the participation of cheap labour in 3rd world countries to service 1st & 2nd world economies. etc. Communications is a commodity and a driver. Consumerism is an automatic function of people having disposable income and awareness of the products. (media again)

ga.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#127

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 3:18 AM

Looking back to the beginning of the thread, there was an introductory bar that said:

Roger's Equations

This blog features weekly an equation, formula, or constant that occurs frequently in Engineering or Science. I will try to present the subject matter in a nonformal, conversational style that can be easily followed. Criticism and corrections are encouraged, as are suggestions for future discussions.

That too could have been intriguing (e+1 = 0; ΔxΔp ≥ h/4π; ΣE = ΣI = Σp = 0; etc.), but the present topic is even juicier.

Then follows a heading: Philosophical Extremes; A Defense of Pure Reason.

I have some doubts about "pure reason"; that seems to be an ivory-tower fantasy that often involves mere logic-chopping. Instead, I think the real game might be better conceived as "empirically tethered reason." I won't develop this right now, but I suspect it may later be brought to bear on the strengths/weaknesses of Plato, Aristotle, Kant, and others.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#129
In reply to #127

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 11:40 AM

"Empirically tethered reason" vs. "pure reason". Excellent!!! What a wonderful way to phrase it!

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#130
In reply to #129

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 11:55 AM

well logically speaking, in terms of defining knowledge, I think its kind of upside-down, as I understand it... When something is Empirically obtained, that means it is found by a Top Down approach, from first principles. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Experimentation on the other hand, is the Bottom Up approach (grass roots), because it claims to know knothing before hand, even a principle, and then proceeds to synthesize knowledge from repeatable results and general agreement.

Both are needed in society, because while experimentation provides an ongoing engine of discovery and development, society makes abundant use of principles, rules and tradition in things like raising children, defensive driving, law creation, marketing, etc. where inductive knowledge will be a long time getting there to substantiate practices that have been shown IRL to basically work, however imperfectly.

but I agree with you, it just creates a picture in my mind of an idea with a balloon and an anchor. interesting. I need a few of those anchors from time to time.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#131
In reply to #130

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 12:14 PM

Chris-

In my experience (which is, of course, limited), the bulk of humanity would prefer to receive their knowledge "upside down", i.e., with first principles derived from the "experts". Leave the experimentation and actual work of verifying the validity of the "first principles" to others. This is, I believe, true for both science and religion. And virtually any other human pursuit. This is why we still have people promoting HHO and free energy, and others actually buying in to these schemes with hard-earned cash...and lotteries.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#135
In reply to #131

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 2:33 PM

HHO ?

I tend to agree with Chris on this point. We are the observer and the the theorist develops the reason we see what we see. The cosmos, traffic patterns, civil law, criminal law, etc.are developed from the bottom up. Rules of the road are derived bottom up. We may want a top down order but we need the bottom up to start it. However, I don't think I am the best one to argue the point. Perhaps a physicist may develop a theory and then develop experiments to prove it. Beatlemania happened because the music was right to fill a void that was needed in that era. The Beatles were opportunistic to take advantage of a ground swell that recognized something they needed. They were also a very talented group of lads. Is that top down or bottom up or something of both?

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#138
In reply to #135

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 3:36 PM
__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wolfe Island, ON
Posts: 1357
Good Answers: 109
#139
In reply to #138

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 4:14 PM

34 GAs phenomenal!! I was more familiar with HOH not "fools water" called HHO.

I once had an opportunity to join a consortium of people to help them develop hydrogen gas from hydrogen sulfide. They had read a short paper I prepared on H2S in water and liked what they saw. The energy to separate hydrogen from H2S is considerably less than trying to split water to get H2. The hitch was that they wanted to use H2S laden water wells. It really sounded good on paper and some large companies were interested. Water is saturated with H2S at around 200 mg/L. You can do the arithmetic on the volume of water required to pump a well saturated with H2S. Needless to say the cost of pumping exceeded the H2 obtained. The same issue happens if methane is the gas used.

Anyway thanks.

__________________
If they want holy water, tell them to boil the hell out of it.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4484
Good Answers: 246
#132
In reply to #130

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 1:25 PM

I think "empirically" and "experimentally" are effectively synonyms.

The term "first principles" has somewhat different meanings in math vs physics. In math, first principles are not thought to be derived from other principles, nor thought to be developed by experimentation. In physics, first principles are slipperier, I think, because they are empirically derived... but perhaps these laws have been around so long and proven and re-proven so many times that they appear irreducible.

Now, without blinking or thinking, everyone simply accepts the eleven dimensions of string theory as a given... a first principal... of course.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#133
In reply to #132

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 1:57 PM

Is it eleven now? I thought it was 18...no, wait. It was 7...or was it 23?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5916
Good Answers: 204
#134
In reply to #132

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 2:14 PM

my bad.

I went and empirically checked, and you are right!

I learn.

Chris

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#143

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/18/2010 7:44 PM

Hi Roger,

I am a latecomer to this thread. I think the current direction it is going was brought about by you quoting from a book on religion. That is unfortunate.

"Then, with the ascension of the first Christian Emperor, and later the fall of the Western Roman Empire to Germanic tribes,..."

This sounds like you are saying a Christian was an emperor rather than an emperor who ruled over the Christians. Is that what you meant? Is this the one you were referring to?

-S

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#173

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/19/2010 7:15 PM

Pheonix911, I will present part II when it's done and if that means everyone loses interest and leaves, that's fine. I'm not here to cater to ethusiams, I'm not a reality show or some tabloid, I'm here to put in writing a well thought out set of ideas. I will take the time I need.

Also, if I've hurt any of your feelings, I apologize (though please read my comments more carefully before you jump to conclusions). My interest is in the truth, as it always is. My degrees are in Physics, not Communications. I will fight those who imply a rationality to atheism as vigorously as those who oppose the idea of evolution. One of the important things in this world is being able to distinguish between what is knowable, what is probable, what is not probable, and what is not knowable.

I would think you all would know this about me by now.

Register to Reply
The Engineer
Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Physics... United States - Member - NY Popular Science - Genetics - Organic Chemistry... Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Ingeniería en Español - Nuevo Miembro - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albany, New York
Posts: 5060
Good Answers: 129
#182

Re: The Antiscience - Part I

04/20/2010 9:32 AM

I'll put up my part II in a couple of weeks I hope.

Also, I'm going to ask that the comments section on this blog be closed.

Roger

Register to Reply
Register to Reply Page 2 of 2: « First < Prev 1 2 Last »
This discussion was "closed" on 04/20/2010 9:34 AM. No new comments are allowed.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Alaskan Dad (2); Anonymous Hero (7); Apothicus (3); artsmith (3); Bayes (18); Blink (24); BlueAussieBoy (1); C-Mac (6); chrisg288 (25); cwarner7_11 (13); DaveD (1); Duckinthepond (3); English Rose (1); ethobil (1); ffej (2); Jaen (1); kevinm (13); ky (2); Lynn.Wallace (3); Mikerho (1); Milo (7); MRH620 (2); palinurus (1); phoenix911 (9); RCE (10); StandardsGuy (2); Steve Melito (1); Steve S. (2); Tornado (8); tpiecora (1); Transcendian (4); varun_achar (1); YWROADRUNNER (4)

Previous in Blog: The Chemistry of DNA Part 4   Next in Blog: The Antiscience – Part II

Advertisement