Introduction to the New Moderators

Welcome aboard to the new team. I see some familiar names who have participated in the general run of threads. I hope everyone joins in on topics of interest, rather than remaining only as a hidden referee.

Excellent questions!

I would like to add one additional....

By what guidelines shall they moderate and have all agreed to do so?

Moderation rules are the same as they have always been. It is basically that moderators weed through threads and promote the ones with good or original content (not content that has been brought up several times) to the daily digest. Comments that are not applicable to the original posters question or content should be off-topic-ed, or in the cases where it is degrading, inappropriate, or involve religion or politics, it will be deleted. These are the biggest rules by which moderators abide by.

Moderation rules are the same as they have always been.

?

See the comment to which you replied to, it outlines the major rules to moderating. Believe it or not, but moderating rules have been the same before, during, and after the new team took hold.

The new team was selected based on the following criteria.

(a) They have to work at Globalspec.

(b) They have to volunteer time out of their schedules (some during work and some outside of work)

(c) Have an interest in the CR4 community.

As far as how long they will serve, it depends on the specific person. People may come and go as moderators. For example, if someone moves on to another job, they may leave moderating behind and other moderators will pick up their slack.

Thank you for reply. I would suggest you to paste an additional title "moderator" with those CR4 members who are part of the team.

It is not more then a suggestion.

Thanks.

We have definitely been considering ways to visibly know which members are moderators, but until we get more resources to make such changes, for now we can only give members a list to peruse.

oh thats easy.. just make them all have the same avatar!

Globalspec logo with national flag is an another choice.

OH NO CR4 IS OUTSOURSING!!!

Welcome aboard.

Hello Moderators, thanks for your continuing efforts to keep CR4 functioning smoothly.

I hope you don't weed out all the discussions on religion or politics, they're often interesting and they definitely draw the largest crowd of corespondents.

Very generous to even name them. Welcome to all.

It is a pity we can't click on their names to find out what their interest are. Or what their field of expertise is. Never mind, the next time I notice one of the above I will go to their profile, if any.

Another thing I have noticed is that there are hardly any more than 200 people logged on at any given time. Maybe its the time zones and I am not logged on when the proverbial hits the fan. It should be 2000 at all times or are there just not enough interested people around?

I have become a more complete person since spending time here so all is good, Ky.

Thank you for all your efforts, keep up all the good work.

Hi Moderators,

Good to see the new line-up.

The requirement that all moderators must be employed by Globalspec is perhaps the weakest and least attrctive aspect of the panel. Afterall you recognise the breadth of knowledge that benefits the CR4 community through the participation of individuals from all walks of life and nationality.

I would recommend that in your internal forum that consideration be given to introducing a small number of 'lay' moderators who being from outwith the ranks of Globalspec would bring some added dimensions to your criteria.

Otherwise, I am happy with the work being done and the variety of dialogue available through the forum.

Massey.

If You had someone who did not work for globalspec act as a moderator how would they(global spec) be able to control the content of the discusion? Globalspec would have to have a moderatotr to mederate the moderator. See where this is going?

oilcan13

Right now it works this way because we have some internal tools that are not accessible outside our network. If this changes we could consider adding outside moderators.

We do have quite a bit of variety within our current moderation staff - all backgrounds ranging from various engineering disciplines to management and more. The interests have quite a broad range too.

Congratulations, All!!! Good Luck! I wish you all success!

Congratulations, ALL!!! Good Luck! I wish you all success!

Hi, nice to meet ya'll. Have a bagel and some coffee.

Take an ATTAboy out of petty cash

Nice to see you all and thanks for the time and effort spent for our benifit.

How about a short note from each of the new team?

Some of the future blog entries in the CR4Admin Blog will feature a moderator or blogger. They will answer 10 random questions and we will post them in this blog. We will try to bring content to the blog weekly and a "Meet the Moderator/Blogger" will be a part of that.

Thank you for devoting your time and efforts. Although many may not say so , your supervision is I'm sure appreciated!

Dear Admin,

Perhaps a few statistics would help with some context.

• How many posts are posted each day? (avg)
• Is there a 'prime time' of posts/moderating?
• How many hours are put in by individual moderators on a daily basis?
• Are moderators schedule in shifts?
• Are there no longer any programming resources applied to CR4?

Chris

Chris,

Most of the numbers I don't have for you.

Moderators are scheduled in three-hour shifts. Hours vary by moderator.

If something breaks on the site we can get programming resources to fix it. There are no current plans to expand or improve the site. I have a list that I add to whenever I see suggestions for improvements. I note the requestor, date, and suggestion, along with a few other details that will help us internally in the future.

Dear Jaxy,

It's a good one seeing the names of current moderators and I join other posters in welcoming you folks on board.

Since all moderators work for Globalspec, I hope they're all on special/extra allowance for the job on CR4.

Cheers,

ethobil

You would be responsible for your own Blog I would imagine?

Not necessarily. If a comment that is 'bad" comes up during someones moderating time slot in another persons blog entry, it is the responsibility of the moderator for that time slot to moderate it. Although, I will moderate my own blog if something or someone gets out of hand regardless of whose time slot it is.

Are you guys like EMS

& have a target response time?

is a moderator responsible for the entire site or is there preferred turf?

I know none of my business

I like the study of the area where management & the real work intersect & the different thinking [or lack] that lead to the prevailing reality.

You're right, none of your business.

But the moderator is responsible for the entire site as opposed to a segment. Often there is more than one moderator on at once since peope will check in periodically throughout the day if they are active in some of the threads, their own blog, etc.

I have seen comments moderating advertisement for forums outside of CR4 and as I understand it, advertisements should be in the advertisement space (and in my humble opinion paid for if a commercial venture).

What about this member and their repeated blog that does nothing but advertise their product? Is this company affiliated with GlobalSpec? If so, the miracle cure-all quackery listed in the advertisement makes me wonder why GlobalSpec would sponsor such a product. The web page linked by the blog does not contain enough scientific fact for me to consider it an article, it is merely an ADVERTISEMENT!

If this is allowed to continue unabated, you will have many other members who feel this is favoritism or biased. Being a Moderator is a tough job, not only must you spend hours filtering through posts that may not interest you, you must also perform your duties without bias (or seeming biased), you must also deal with members frustrated by double standards they observe.

My point is if CR4 is going to give someone grief for linking to another forum that is NOT in competition with CR4 but allow blatant advertisements like this it is hypocritical and unethical.

Drew

If the "advertisement" is in a blog, they have gotten permission to blog about their product on CR4. If it is a forum blatantly advertising a product, then it will be removed or repositioned in commercial space.

If it is a blog from a certain person that is making your blood boil, I suggest that you avoid it.

It has nothing to do with he person, I have not noticed algeax submitting a post yet. The problem that bothers me is the hypocritical methods I see used. I feel that perhaps it was the member on the BBT thread I observed chastised for 'advertising' another forum where members would be allowed to speak unmoderated.

I didn't understand the chastisement in the first place because the member was looking for a solution for the problems encountered in the BBT with moderation. He was chastised for advertising and instructed to put future advertisements in the correct place, but you tell me that it is fine for the algeax blog to continue to advertise its product? That is the hypocrisy that will alienate the members of CR4 from the administration and create strife and conflict. At the moment, I like CR4 as an entertaining diversion, I enjoy learning and reading the comments of intelligent and / or educated minds. What I don't like is hypocrisy and repeated blogs advertising products that I and several other members feel is a modern snake oil attempting to rip off suckers.

If I am wrong in my assessment of their product, let them or others post scientific data backing up their claims, THAT is what I became a member of this forum for; not for bickering with moderators or scam artists determined to rip off consumers.

Drew

Drew,

You make valid points. Feel free to post a comment asking the blogger in question to provide some data. That seems like a reasonable request.

Keep in mind that moderators do not make decisions about blog entries and do not moderate their content - only the comments in response to blogs. The content of the blogs are up to CR4's editorial staff (a separate team).

Members are welcome to participate in as many forums as they'd like although we welcome you to spend time on and contribute to CR4. The particular member you're mentioning had asked repeatedly for a clarification of the rules so I provided one. His post was not moderated.

Just as a general tip - if you see something written by a user you don't like or that you know causes you irritation - don't read it. That's what I tell people who don't like animals. Why waste your time on my blog when it's only going to make your blood boil and possibly cause you to generate an angry/hateful comment? Why waste that 5-10 minutes or more out of your day?

Members are welcome to participate in as many forums as they'd like although we welcome you to spend time on and contribute to CR4. The particular member you're mentioning had asked repeatedly for a clarification of the rules so I provided one. His post was not moderated.

Still waiting

I never did get a definition of what CR4 considers "redirecting traffic"

while in the instance you are referring to you did warn me not to redirect traffic out side of CR4

I gave some examples, including members who directly link to their own businesses within the text of the post.

I post links to other sources of information, including sources that could be considered competitors of GS & CR4.

I actually have less understanding of CR4's expectations than ever before

Just as a general tip - if you see something written by a user you don't like or that you know causes you irritation - don't read it. One of the most common reasons "I don't like" a member, is that from my perspective, they consistently don't have an accurate grasp of the facts.

Drew you & I both know that algicides are band aids for bad fuel,

proper storage ='s no water ='s no algae

More restricted conjecture

the blogs go along with the newsletters, which go along with the searches [gs]

probably get a free blog [or entry] with an ad or featured search result.

There are some editors who are responsible for the content of the blogs. The moderators are responsible for the comments to the blogs in addition to new threads and comments in response to those.

I think I know which blog you're referring to - is it the one you posted a similar comment on? An editor followed up with you there.

Who are these Editors? I've never heard before that CR4 had Editors, or an Editor, and was under the impression it only had "Moderators".

Real Editors actually assign reporters or writers to news or topics.

Moderators are more similar to what I used to call a "Line Editor".

In one of my careers there was a distinct difference between the Producer, and the Line Producer, for instance.

I myself am fond of a few titles, like Chief, or Director, or Founder, and on occasion take them up, or bestow them on myself.

Who is the Editor in Chief now?

In Feedback, or on this, or the list I have said repeatedly that I'd like to see the "rules" changed to reflect the full range of thinking that makes CR4 a Community. I do prefer to discuss "ethics" instead of religion, but they become serious issues in direct relation to technology everyday. Politics are intertwined with theology, and technology, and we are mostly adults around here, sort of.

I'll continue to hammer on this issue with all Editors, or Moderators as important for the community as a change in rules as long as I am either a member, or until I give up.

I'll continue to suggest a Political Science and History Section so as to complete the Community Forum, if not give it a head. I'll continue to provide as much technical info out my my odd set of experience and education as I can to old friends or newcomers alike.

Still I will push here for growth, and completeness for those here who are here simply since it is a place where the philosophy of William James, the Pragmatist is vieing with enforced blindness and enforced skitzophrenia.

"Hey! We only want part of your brain! We don't like your mind!" - Really that is what CR4 has been saying for years now to volunteers, and veterans of the Forum.

No wonder some Moderators have burned out. What makes you think that the way things are, won't burn you out too?

Ohh brinksmanship

I have to make a couple of points

I assume a good answer vote is a vote for Russell to stay

the thread in question is http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/14144/Can-We-Design-A-Better-Government

The reasons I was given [by PM] are:

Inactivity

& that it was a "political" thread

I wrote a couple of PM's asking for the thread to be left open as an example of the polite conversation, that is the goal of the new moderation team

All of you can draw your own conclusions about the reasons behind closing this thread at this time

"However I will leave if voted off, and will never darken your door again."

Russell,

I won't be voting for you to stay or leave. It has nothing to do with your value. I think it is just a wrong position to take.

As contributors and authors, it is we who create value. All CR4 admin is saying is that they wish to adhere to the original mission: "The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion."

This site is in support of a commercial venture, and is therefore some honey to attract potential customers. If it is a crazy and obscene site, then that will not be attractive, so they have implemented a policy of no politics or religion. I had the same sort of rules growing up around the dinner table, as it was considered impolite. I can abide with that, and it is no reflection on me, or my values.

I recommend that you don't take it personally. Find another venue for political thought. Perhaps a blog on transcendia.org

"Be the change you want to see in the world."
Mohandas K. Ghandi

GA. I don't always agree with Transcendian, but when I do, I have to think twice about it. I love verbal fisticuffs, and don't generally shrink from a tussle. But this is an engineering forum, and on it I am more restrained than on Amazon religious or political threads. I have pushed (or maybe crossed) the envelope here, but at least not too often, I hope.

In fairness to the moderators, it may not be easy to draw the best lines. The new team is at least speaking more to such matters, but I can't yet tell who's who, what's what, and what the real rationales are. Perhaps time will tell.

For evidence of the flaw of the edict that politics are verboten runs throughout CR4s history. Engineering solutions simply have had, and will have profound effects on civilization. We have "discussed" machines, building techniques, cars, guns, and etc. for years often covering what these solutions have meant.

Any attempt to divorce technology from politics is simply doomed.

Shipping Container Housing for Haiti is another example of this reality. It did not start out as a Political Discussion, but inevitably becomes one.

The Engineering Place for News and Discussion ought to eliminate "Discussion", if in fact political comments are to be prevented. I'd posit further that a description of the place as a Forum ought also be eliminated if "Discussion", is not allowed to take its natural course.

I told my daughter years ago, that the sooner you grasp that life is hard, the easier it will be. It is hard to deal with change, or face reality. It is my thesis that realistically attempts by the CR4 administration to eliminate political comments make the job harder on them, than is necessary.

Far as a community or a forum, I have suggested for years now that the leadership simply face the facts, and make it easy on everybody for all to get what they want from coming to CR4. Simply provide a Political Science Section, or allow comments to be marked as political, and forget about it!

Us veterans for years simply marked our own posts as Off Topic, as a euphemism. For us it was a polite way of skirting the rules of the paid Editorial staff.

Apparently the new administration doesn't yet grasp that we generally have a great deal of respect for them and each other, and attempt day in and day out to help each other, and enjoy the life of the mind for its own sake.

There has long been as a part of the culture of CR4, voting rights, which right there contradict the edict against politics. Voting itself is a political act, and part of the fabric of CR4. Built into CR4 from the get go was a political element that naturally has led to a confrontation with what is desired, and what is a reality.

"We wanted to make a Community." A Community will naturally have a political element, and there simply is no way around that reality.

& P.S. A permanent section in Electrical Engineering titled Everything You Need To Know about Grounding and "Earthing" AC and DC systems, the CR4 International Electrical Code and Instruction Reference Book, With Pictures and Illustrations, has great potential as a Textbook, which we know are about as strong a publishing pursuit as you are likely to bank on, next to pornography. The voluminous posts concerning Grounding and Earthing likely rival Bath Breaking in their number, though often in waves under different Original Poster, Questions.

very well thought out and written! I like it.

Although it wouldn't fly with my father at the dinner table, I agree with your premise. I can't see a simple way to moderate it. Politics and Religion frequently get nasty, and people storm off and leave the table.. and maybe don't cook for us again.

so we have to keep it civil. Any ideas on how else to do that?

Chris

You can't actually publish

CR4 International Electrical Code and Instruction Reference Book, With Pictures and Illustrations

with out stomping all over IEC's intellectual property as they define it

as far as IEC is concerned you must pay them to reference or publish all or part of the "code", even though the establishment & revision of the code is financed by governments around the world

is having a thread about grounding

political in light of this?

last night in the daily digest there was a thread about Blockbuster

any link this thread may have to science & technology is tenuous at best, I haven't noticed a business section...

Why this is the featured piece is another mystery?

Blockbuster is a business which rents out an outdated piece of technology. It is a technology based blog. It brings the question, how long can an old piece of technology last before it is replaced with newer technology.

Better to use the adjective "Mature" than outdated. No matured technology is ever completely abandoned. In fact there is one shape that is optimum for cars. One shape that is optimum for airplanes.

What you really want is a good system that uses a tool set that may well advance beyond the tools available when the system was created.

As a harbinger of technology as far as cameras are concerned, Panavision is the company to look at.

Money to make Blockbuster came from trash hauling and processing.

CW is correct overall that Blockbuster rented out content in forms that conformed to the ascendent hardware. I myself find the interplay between technology and businesses of interest and don't necessarily object to a bit about Blockbuster, or some set of Headphones, or the difference between a brain, and a mind.

Course I have simply suggested appropriately titled or labeled sections. I'm nonplussed as to why Administration or Globalspec would require professionals who contribute freely to strictures appropriate if you are working for the boss.

Far as the Blockbuster, or Headphone blog threads, or my semi fluff question about whether or not you can really train cats the yeah or nay question becomes, "What harm does it do?"

Back in the past I pointed out that some of the great professionals that contribute to CR4, can only say so much professionally due to contracts with whomever they professionally work with which may well rightly call for secrecy.

Long called for a Political Science Section, but haven't fully addressed how to deal with religion. I was just going to leave it in Poly Sci as a section or a judgement similar to off topic markings, but think Theology may qualify as a mark, or section.

My points essentially amount to the codification of the premise that we of CR4 like to have whole people hanging out in the community.

We are told we can go somewhere else, but why really? Why not just work a bit to change CR4. Why should we veterans jump ship? Frankly I have only so much time in a day, and don't like anymore starting over from scratch somewhere else all the time. Why not fix up where I am?

I do like history quite a bit, and have read books like Soul of a Machine, or Pushing the Limits, and did find the Blockbuster, and Headphone, Blog threads short on history. The Streetcar work of John Loz? put some of current energy and transport engineering and issues into context, and grist for thought. -No harm in that.

Course in the course of human events, to flee has been considered much wiser, and a reflection of intelligence. Certainly Einstein was a smart guy, and simply left Germany, whereas Von Braun was smart, the US ended up with a smarter guy during the War.

Course I am of the impression that Einstein's work enabled the bombs made. I am also under the impression that he told Roosevelt such a thing was called for.

I just find the choice of featured articles unusual, to say the least

The effort to enforce a certain structure on the members, while the employee/bloggers post whatever

smacks of the do as I say, not as I do school of management

I spent a lot of time & energy trying to understand what the new order is to be

There are no rules, beyond some very general guidelines, which may or may not apply, depending some other factors & which won't be defined

there isn't much that needs to be written or said, the posts speak for themselves.

I'm still baffled by the moderation, but thankfully there seems to be much less of it

Not sure what harm they do. Think it good to point to them as bit odd. Certainly I've no particular objection in light of my own inputs.

"Simply provide a Political Science Section"

Trans, for me there is no such thing as Political science, let me explain while you keep your hat on, I don't mind.

We have all been confronted with the governments refusal to make public the documents which contain proof of some not quite palatable matters which have led to so much misery world wide over centuries. Not even after 2 or 3 generations is it possible to have a little peak into shadow diplomacy. Now that is not science but the complete opposite of it. Don't get me started on Religion.

The content of these secret documents must be so horrendous and or unveiling, that they can't risk the people to know what really went on. I am convinced that this is happening to us right now. How dare the government treat us like children and tell us that we are either too young to stupid to uneducated or what ever their reasoning might be, to understand the process of their decision making.

I have the ability to understand complex matters of all kinds and feel insulted that any politicians, at any level, should have information about matters which are withheld from us. Statesmen are able to understand something that he claims I can't? What, because he has studied political sciences? WALOC.

If a politician wanted to find the secrets ingredients of any other science, he would find that it takes correct steps and decisions to get a result. He would soon find that fixing a 40ton thingo to a substrate using an M3 brass bolt will not hold. There are laws to be obeyed. But not in politics, here they are made with out even proof of concept. Just built it and ride it out.

He and the other carriers of state secrets think, anticipate that we could disagree with what they are planning or had planed even 50 years ago. They must be very scared to let us see all of their manipulating affairs. This is just not done in real science and if it is, it would be called scientific fraud and be found out with in a generation. To come up with a solution and keeping the ingredients a secrete? How can one learn? Its childish really, expecting a result not knowing what the ingredients are.

So there is some information out there that we are not supposed to know about. Why not? Is it that we would be ripped out of our comfort zones? If that is the case, why do we have to watch war on TV and on a daily basis? No, our comfort zone is not their driving concern, it is their thriving for power also fed by the military industrial complex.

That (the military industrial complex) is not political science, it is a mathematical, mechanical, chemical truth.

What is the aim of our complete involvement and the next minute no involvement at all in legislated politics? Why are we subjected to the pictures of war? Is it maybe, to harden us up for things to come? Is it to show how superior our weapons systems are compared to undernourished foot soldiers that have never seen a school from the inside, and if, only to learn to become literate soldiers who can read a bomb making manual.

Are we confronted by this propaganda so that we can believe that we are winning the (a) war? And to give us hope while they show us "our" military superiority? It makes me uncomfortable to be part of a nation that has invaded another nation based on a lie. We are paying for the results of failed diplomacy with the good name of our great nations.

Becoming the whore of a more powerful war monger we all are the victims of the war machine, which created their own reason of being and establishing a "new" inhumane empire. So did every other country on this planet at some stage of their development. It has to be noted that no occupation, of any country, has ever succeeded in the long run. The invader has always been chased out. Always! It raises the question "why are they still trying?".

The answer is that politics is not a science but a mingle of confused goals and always reacting to things they (the politicians) have created by them selves, for them selves. Now you try and recreate such science in a lab. Any Professor would kick you out. Its worse than bloody HHO. Politics is not a science!

Maybe the holder of state secrets think that we would stand up and kick them out of office because what was hidden from us was/is so disgusting that we couldn't bear to be ruled by such methods of politics. Why is it that nobody stands up to this method of deception? Yep, we are all part of it, that's why. On the one side we try and buy (at least some) the car with the least petrol used per 100 clicks, to be part of saving the planet and on the other we bast everything to hell and back. In psychology it would be treated as schizophrenia.

If I would have a partner telling me that there are some things, now or from the past, which I am not supposed to know of, the partnership would be over there and then. My partnership with the modern dictators was never initiated (nope, no rings on me) because since the very early days of my youth I have never voted for any one. MLK and JFK assassinations did not help build my trust either. Choose the lesser evil? You have to be joking. The lesser evil will be the greater evil once in power.

Anarchy will be the result of my thought process I was told some times. What a load of rubbish. If the only response or alternative to the existing form of government is anarchy, then what about all the other solutions that have been developed by smarter people than myself. Black and white (no, not the racial) hysteria is one of the tools being used and we have to be extra careful not to be sucked in to this blinding state of ignorance. "If you are not with us you are against us", that kind of black and white.

To choose a good read has become more important to me than choosing a party or President. Solving a problem in any of the other sciences gives greater satisfaction than listening to a political speech. Most of it is not even worth being called stand up comedy. I mean, really.

Compulsory voting (like here in Australia) is like making the choice between two evils not the lesser evil. If some thing is flawed it is flawed and nature has a way to deal with that. Maths has a way to deal with it and so have all the other sciences. Only the so called political sciences are built on sand, drift sand for that matter. Where every thing can be twisted until it artificially fits. I would not call it science but mental masturbation.

We all know the result of masturbation and can conclude that there can not be real fertilization. There are no partners out there, just some lackluster symbiosis artificially created and for no ones good. I would be less angry about this whole matter if given the chance to discuss this with the culprits (just not here on CR4) but they are to busy pushing their cart either in to deep mud or they are trying to get it out of there.

With our help they usually get the cart back on track with all that time being wasted and us to blame, if it really bogs down. Maybe they don't want us to know what bogged the cart in the first place because we might not want to help them out the next time, if we find out that it was all some multinational scheme. Its obviously not a conspiracy theory but the real thing staring/bogging us down.

That is the reason, or part of it, that CR4 is not interested in letting the wanna bees (like me) of politics have their say. I find that a very good decision because politics has nothing to do with science, at all. If any one wishes to contribute and throw their hat into the ring, so be it. There are more appropriate places than CR4 to do that.

There can't be legitimate flaw's in science and politics is made up of them. What a fruitless journey, Ky.

PS: Dear admin, this is a plea to limit the presence of the pseudo science politics from discussion. A clear yes from me. I am against publishing the above in and during a meeting in Conference Room 4. I wondered if this was off topic but then found that it is exactly what this is about. I promise, again, that this is the last time I voice an opinion on this.

I like what my Govt. teacher said about government. It is about who gets how much were and when (or something like that). He also said it is generally (almost always) the elite in society that control the government.

I have thought about his alot and feel he is correct. I may not like it, but there is not much that can be done about it. Even if I were to work my way into the system without joining the 'elite' club, I would be so out-numbered my efforts would be fruitless. The trick is to pick the government you like the best (if you have the ability to choose).

Your comments on war on T.V. are misdirected and an example that the elite do not control everything. War is in the media because it makes money for the media companies. It makes money because people watch it. If news clips on people cleaning rubbish from roadsides were able to attract an audience with the power a few images of hostilities then that is what you would see on the news. You can't blame the media or governments for the violence you see in games, movies or the media; it is there because the public wants it.

Governments hold secrets to protect you as much as themselves. Without your money, they would be powerless. So they keep secrets as much as they can to protect what they have. The cotton gin attributed to Eli Witney was a tremendous invention that did not make him rich because its design became too widespread and he was not able to market it. If certain corporate secrets were lost through corporate espionage many companies would quickly become bankrupt eliminating jobs for the employees.

Some secrets do not need to be kept, but others do. I would not want to be the one making the choices for what to keep and what to release. It is not for a fear that the public will or will not understand, it is to protect what they have. But understand, some of those secrets are to protect what they have, and what they have taken from us. The only choice we have is as I said above, pick your government if you are able and willing (realizing some people don't have that choice for economic or legal means (North Korea)).

Your comment on invaders being expelled, is not accurate. Are you an Aboriginal Australian? I am not a Native American. Much to the detriment of the native populations here are two examples of 'invaders' who have settled to stay. I am sure a quick history search will show many more.

I agree that when one government is overthrown they are merely replaced by another group of elite who will adopt many of the same policies the former carried out. The best solution I can see is education of the public. Increased education leads to a population that is not as easily bullied or coerced. In a video on the Black Panthers I listened to one of their leaders who was talking to someone who wanted to financially support the cause. He made a statement that money, loans and support were all well and good, but if their people were not educated they would only replace one tyrant with another. Hence my belief in education.

Drew

Possibly you are engaged in what is called transference by psychologists.

We are not forced to vote in the US.

History and Political Science are the same thing.

So far your view is shared by the administration of CR4. Plea all you want. You will find eventually that your plea is the same as a prayer to God, answered with "No".

Sociology is a science. Psychology is a science.

My dictionary does allow that Politics are an Art, and a Science. I typically use the Oxford American Edition. It defines Politics as a Science and an Art.

It, the dictionary I use does not say Politics are "pseudo", or false.

My dictionary also says that art is a creative skill, or its application. I have spent a fair amount of time on university or college campuses, though often I just showed up and hung around, and did stuff. I was very fond of libraries.

I passed the Arts and Sciences building on my way to the radio station last time I spent a lot of time on a campus.

I know what is happening, why, and do what I can with the tools I have to affect the mental landscape.

Either I win here on CR4, or we all lose.

ky, your earlier post summed it up as well. This one was pretty lengthy. :) chrisg288 also did a good job of explaining why there are other places that are better for discussing politics and religion than CR4. There are plenty of other topics to debate here!

Transcendian - if the powers that be decide to add a political science section, you'll be the first to know. For now it's not in the cards.

That thing about the 4th amendment and Airport body scanners is another example of a Political Science discussion from the get go.

The factor as to what is approved as a political discussion or not is clearly who gets to start it, and not whether or not it is, or becomes political in nature.

While Ky and Chrisg may seem to agree with you, they know that they have often made political statements, either about international interests of ours, or about even Transcendia, and me personally as well, as far as Ky is on record.p] Every veteran knows that half the fun of CR4 are discussions that address both engineering, science, and the politics involved. Bet even you have to admit even you love a good argument.

I don't play cards much, but know who controls the deck. I was better than I was supposed to be a poker.

I WELCOME THE NEW MODERATORS and CONGRATULATE THEM. I AM SURE ALL THE MEMBERS WILL GIVE A GOOD SUPPORT and Co-Operation.

I am sure CR4 WILL REACH VERY HIGH STANDARDS FURTHER and CONTRIBUTE TO THE TECHNOLOGY and the SOCIETY.

DHAYANANDHAN.S,

INDIA