Are You Thirsty?

... and if moonshine don't kill me, I'll live 'til I die.

Your GP probably doesn't consider tea as a way to hydrate as it is a diuretic. I am not sure that is true, unless you drink a lot of it. If you are thirsty, that is a good sign that you need to drink. If I'm hungry, I want food, not a glass of water.

What I have yet to learn is, does a caffeinated drink hydrate you or not? Yes, caffeine is a diuretic, but it's in a DRINK. I've gotten conflicting answers from medical professionals.

(In my own experience, the sugar in a Coke - for example - is energizing, the cold and carbonization is refreshing, and if my body needs the water in the drink, I don't pee it.)

As I understand - a cup of coffee/tea is diuretic - 10 cups are a different ball game and the effect is lost.

Russ

I generally feel my best when I drink 8-10 glasses per day (2-3 bottles at work and then 2-3 glasses at home).

When I don't drink this amount for a few days because of traveling or whatever, I have more frequent headaches and feel more lethargic. I have read that the amount of water you require depends on your weight, activity level, and the type of foods you eat (as mentioned in the blog). I'm probably also thirsty because I suffer from dry mouth as a side effect of some medication (and just in general).

I tell my exercise classes that you usually have to work hard at it to drink "too much" water. If you're exercising for longer than 90 minutes, straight water will be hazardous. You should start drinking sports drink (NOT "energy" drinks).

When you reach the point where your drink sloshes around in your belly and doesn't refresh, you're probably close to hyponatremia.

Water is the best sports drink. Straight water hazardous? Come on!

More or less every year, we hear about the death of a novice marathon runner or two from hyponatremia. For long efforts (hard hikes, bike rides, distance running), drinking straight water results in the loss of minerals and electrolytes (calcium, potassium, phosphorous, magnesium, etc.). The body's processes start failing as a result. Death can and does occur.

Again, if you're working hard for more than 90 minutes, you must supplement your water intake. A sports drink (Gatorade, Powerade, your own similar concoction) is necessary to keep your chemistry balanced.

Avoid the so called sports drinks unless you want the sugar. I have worked in really hi temp environments for many years(oil refineries and power plants) and take electrolyte tablets with large amounts of water - I prefer Seltzer or Club Soda. These tablets are sold by one of the national vitamin chains as " Electrolyte Stamina Formula" and are manufactured by a company called Trace Minerals in Utah. In the past I would get severe cramps in my legs, arms and hands at night after a long day of heavy fluid loss. These tablets really do work. The US Army publishes a survival guide that has a good section on water consumption. Some of our combat troops in the middle east are consuming 4 to 6 gallons per day. Ed

To investigate two viewpoints:

http://www.watercure.com/index.html

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/5/f/blwaterintox.htm

When I am really, really thirsty, I find sugar drinks (sodas, "sports drinks", etc.) aggravate the situation. If I need to rebuild mineral content, I prefer beer. I have no "scientific" proof that this is a better choice- but it is more to my liking. Also, beer has been around a lot longer than soda or sports drinks or coffee or tea- apparently, humans were brewing beer in Paleolithic times...

Don't get me wrong - I preach water intake all the time. Keep it flowing - you're not going to overdose. But I've also been three hours into a hot weather bike ride with only water to drink and electrolytes low. It sucks and is dangerous. In such situations, Gatorade tastes like *exactly* what you want. It's absolutely delicious because your body needs the salt, etc.

It's best to stay out of that situation at all. Drink primarily water, lots of it, but if you know you're going to be exercising for hours, don't drink just water. Half-and-half works well for me.

What did endurance athletes do in years past before sports drinks were developed?

Just roll over and die at the end of the event?

That's a good question. I have only theories or speculation in response. There used to be a culture of salt tablets, probably still is in some backwaters. Maybe they just under-performed. Perhaps their life was hard enough that they were better adapted to extremes - that's something that's easy to forget.

Most significantly, there wasn't the culture of casual athleticism we have today, so there were far fewer people attempting long periods of high intensity exercise. The only people who ran marathons were elite athletes until about the 1970's. Riding a bike hard for three hours just for the hell of it (or the good of it)? Unheard of until relatively recently. Life itself provided enough of a workout.

Performance-enhancing substances were not well regulated then either, and may have contributed.

The "culture of salt tablets" was very much a part of the military experience in the 1960's and 1970's- dispensers everywhere, an actual regimen dictated by regulation with regards to taking so many salt tablets per day during hot weather...I don't know if the modern military still adheres to that philosophy or not...

Was it all sodium chloride, or were there other electrolytes jammed into the tablet?

"Was it all sodium chloride, or were there other electrolytes jammed into the tablet?" I haven't the slightest idea. When in the military, one does as told, and does not ask questions that are likely to stump the Drill Sergeant...

I expect that they serve gatorade in the middle of the Afghan desert! I can see that - someone calling Medic! and someone else screaming Sports Drink!

To me this is like the 'brain freeze' and a thousand other now named symptoms, illnesses and conditions that everyone wants to get worked up over. A doctor or researcher wants to go on TV so he invents a new name and bingo! Nobody can prove him wrong as the condition is nonexistent anyway.

If a person can't handle an hour and a half of a hard go (which is no more than many laborers do for 8 hours daily) without a crutch - maybe they shouldn't be doing it.

Russ

I do believe the US Military pays due concern to the health of soldiers, and that this includes proper hydration with electrolyte components. I'll ask the next one I meet for details.

I served a tiny amount of time as a wildland firefighter before I decided I was too darned soft for that kind of work. If it hasn't shown up on Dirty Jobs, it should soon. I took plenty of water to climb that mountainside on a 100-degree day, but no Gatorade. Fortunately, an experienced crewmate had some extra Gatorade that he brought and I guzzled down. I would've been in a physical crisis if he hadn't.

This is real stuff I'm talking about. (Just as the brain freeze is a real phenomenon that not necessarily everyone is prone to.) Heavy labororers are accustomed by definition to their workload, and they hydrate themselves as needed. Whether they supplement pure water with specialized drinks or not, they get their electrolytes some way. Keep in mind that their heart rates aren't kept elevated every second of their day, unlike those of endurance athletes engaged in their sport or activity.

Back in my gliding days I found that you could lose about a litre of fluids an hour dependant on the temperature and altitude you were flying at. The altitude part is interesting because it gets colder as you go up so you wouldn't' think you would need as much water. However, the reduced atmospheric pressure more than offset the reduced temperature so the net effect was increase in the rate of fluid loss.

As for the symptoms there was definitely a drop in intellectual performance which considering the time you need to concentrate the hardest is at the end of the flight when landing can be a real killer.

Headaches were also a problem and the only way I found that I could combat these was to drink the sports type drinks so I would have to say that they contained something that was missing.

8-10 glasses of water daily? I would be worn out from zipper fatigue!

Someone should make an app for my Garmin with all the restrooms on it. Us old farts get MRSA (Men's Room Separation Anxiety).

Go back a hundred years. There were no TV dinners, frozen foods, sports drinks or Burger Kings. People worked hard, hard enough to work up a sweat. People didn't worry to try and be skinny. Weight control was pretty much automatic. A rural farmer ate nutritious foods (that's what was available). If thirsty, he drank water or beer. What's different today? We are not physically active every day. Therefore we engage in exercise, sometimes strenuous, but we try to do it all at once to make up for lost activity. Replenishment of liquids is done only when we feel the need, instead of an automatic response to thirst. As others have wisely said; drink when thirsty and eat when hungry. I don't see a problem with that; makes common sense.

My doc says that any fluid is good fluid,

but don't overdo the coffee, tea, soda, juice, or even milk.

She says that if you drink 8 oz. water with every meal/snack IN ADDITION to anything else you choose, and "as much as you feel like" when you are 'thirsty', you will recieve more than enough to offset any other related issues.

Having been a semi-pro and pro athlete, I agree that it is not a good idea to simply drink away your 'thirst' after strenuous exercise. The problem is the same as your brain/stomach communication failure when you realize after the fact that you ate to much. People rarely die from overeating, by do die everyday from 'overdrinking'.

And I do mean alchohol AND plain ol' water.

ga and thank you for as you put it, 'a medical perspective'.

I don't know what laborers I saw working in India had to compensate for the loss of salt (either in the water or food) but I saw some small guys and ladies doing fantastic amounts of work for a long day and with no complaints - no one would have listened anyway.

As you pointed out it is loss of fluids and not whether you are on a bike or marathon. I have seen that I normally lose about 1 kg in a good run - that is all sweat.

The modern sports drinks are mainly marketing hype and high prices with the possible exception of extreme endurance athletes such as the Tour de France guys etc.

I actually bought a couple of bottles today just out of curiosity caused by this thread. One for me after my run and one for my wife after her workout.

Tomorrow I will ask about salt tablets at the pharmacy.

Russ

The modern sports drinks are mainly marketing hype and high prices with the possible exception of extreme endurance athletes such as the Tour de France guys etc.

You certainly are correct with the marketing and profit margins. I buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf, because when I need it I don't care how many "empty" calories are in it or whether they come from high fructose corn syrup or not.

But one assumption you're making that is key, and it's another thing I tell my exercise classes all the time:

There is no way on Earth that Lance Armstrong or any other world-class athlete can out-work you or me.

That is to say, I will never ride a bike (nearly) as fast as Lance, but I damn well can push myself as hard as he does and push my limits as far as they can take me. In that regard, there is NO DIFFERENCE between an elite endurance athlete and you or me.

So, having pushed ourselves to our limits, we find that these health issues that only occur at the limits do in fact apply to us. Water toxicity is real and is "easy" to stumble into if you're not aware of it.

Pushing yourself to your limit is fine, but pushing yourself past that point on a regular basis is definitely a no, no.

The adage there's no gain if there's no pain is total crap.

Pain is the body's way of telling you that whatever you are doing is causing damage and that you really need to stop doing it RIGHT NOW.

However, in a crisis situation when stopping would potentially be worse than continuing the body has an emergency backup system that allows you to continue by dumping a whole lot of pain killers into your system. These pain killers both act and are very similar to morphine and block the pain that would normally prevent you from continuing. This is what is often called the pain barrier.

Unfortunately these chemicals are also just as addictive as morphine and if you push yourself through the so called pain barrier on a regular basis it's possible to become addicted to the effect to the point you need to do it several times a day. It is rare bit I have seen a fellow worker that started to go through what looked very much like narcotic withdrawal symptoms if he didn't go for a run three times a day. Pushing himself like this even when the temperature is close to 40°C is plainly idiotic but he had no option.

Anyway, when you are in pain you are damaging your body and if you do this on a regular basis then the damage over time will mount up and cause irreversible damage that could have severe life long consequences.

Push yourself to the point that it starts to hurt is fine but no further, when it starts to hurt then it's time to stop.

The rub is, what does "hurt" mean?

I hear bike racers talking all the time about how much an effort "hurts." But I've never really experienced pain on the bike. Lots of self-induced suffering and discomfort, yes, but the only real pain involves road rash or too much time on the saddle (that goes away with more gentle adaptation). If you follow up with most of these people, it seems that their use of "hurt" probably refers to forcing themselves to work much harder than is comfortable.

The example of your exercise-addicted coworker is extreme and seems to speak of a real psychological issue. But I suggest that exercise be put at the top of the list of substances or activities to get addicted to, if you must be addicted to something. I've learned to enjoy hard physical work.

The basic principle behind fitness and performance conditioning is Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands: your body adapts to support its workload. If you don't stress your body physically, it will not be able to do anything more than what you've been doing with it. But if you work up to it, you can climb that mountain, swim that river, run that trail, move that pile of rocks, etc.

G'day Lynn

"if you work up to it, you can climb that mountain, swim that river, run that trail, move that pile of rocks, etc."

You're absolutely correct but you have to do it slowly in small steps so that the body can adjust itself to the changing conditions.

What I am talking about is when people push themselves so hard that the say they have their second wind, or reach the point that they feel they can continue forever. That feeling is because they have just had a thumping great hit of narcotics that will pretty much block any pain so you won't feel it if you damage yourself either by going too far or just plan injury.

That's what you shouldn't be doing not going a little further each day, just stop when things start to hurt not when they stop hurting.

PS: I love your avatar.

I am on perscription diuretics and strive to eat a fairly low sodium diet. It is the potassium I must suppliment, not sodium. From what I have read anyone that is not on a meatless diet almost never needs more sodium, you get plenty from the meat in the average (USA) diet; veggie diets are a different thing. I think most of the sports drinks contain mostly sodium, they shy away from adding potassium due to the fear of giving people too much. They are not all that good for electrolyte depletion. Check out the fluids that are suggested for rehydration for babies that get dysentary like diseases for a good rehydration drink.

Drinking 8 to 10 glasses of water is way too much for the average person in a temperate zone, unless one is doing prolonged physical labor, especially one is outdoors.

On the other hand, you'd drink a heck of a lot more water if you're out in the desert during the spring, summer and fall months (northern hemisphere of course). Before my unit returned home from Desert Storm in mid-June of '91, the troops under my command were drinking bottled water anywhere from 8 liters per day to 12 or 13 liters per day. A lot of consumption depended on the ambient air temp of a given day, and some days the temps reached 125 to 130 Degrees F in the shade. The humidity usually was close to Zilch. Replenishment of water was under strict orders; there was no questioning of this order. We ( a Reinforced Engineering Company, US Army Reserve) were extremely active throughout the daytime hours clearing minefields and unexpended ordinance in the Kuwaiti desert. Just something you cannot do during the nighttime hours.

BTW, at least when I was in the service, the "Daily-Daily" salt pill is just that, strictly a salt pill that contained no other electrolytes. Electrolytes were usually provided by drinking a bottled sport drink like Gatorade that had been donated to the troops.....we had lots and lots of that stuff, thank you! We also had a sport drink powder contained in our MRE's (which we jokingly referred to as "Meals Rejected by Ethiopians", or "Meals Rejected by the Enemy"), where you just added water to the pouch.......truly disgusting stuff!

I hope that clears up some confusion....

Have a great sunny day, and don't forget to drink a good amount of natural water containing trace elements, like a good source of well or spring water!