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Join Date: Mar 2009
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Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 10:15 AM

im a senior in high school. im taking an engineering class where we have to create anything that is needed, just as an engineer would. Our idea is to create a self sustained electric car. We have a few issues though and are looking for advice.

First, we have researched that by placing wind turbines in the front of the vehicle, that it will cause too much drag and cause the motor to work harder. We are not sure how this concept works. Also, we are curious about where the best place is to put wind turbines at on a vehicle, to produce as much power as we can. Lastly, we are also not too sure how much power a wind turbine creates, so if you could give us some advice, it would be very much appreciated.

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Guru
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#1

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:09 AM

You mean?

Motor driven by electricity from wind turbine-------Car driven by motor,-------wind turbine driven by air drag,----- electricity produced from turbine-------and again motor driven by electricity from trubine,

free energy??????????

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#2

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:11 AM

Here's some friendly advice. In order to make a car more energy efficient, you'll have to streamline it to minimize aerodynamic drag. In order for a wind turbine to be more effective, it has to offer maximum wind resistance, so that it can capture as much of the full force of the wind. Put these two diametrically-opposite demands together, and what you'll get is that whatever energy savings you get from streamlining the car, you will lose out due to the aerodynamic resistance from the wind turbine. Or in other words, don't bother: it won't work.

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#3

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:15 AM

Self sustaining is another way of saying for perpetual motion, which I would hope (as a senior) you would realise is impossible.
Please think of a sensible idea to expend your energy on...else you risk appearing gullible, naive or worse.
A wind turbine on a car may produce power to say charge a laptop, but you could simple charge it directly from the cigarette lighter socket...either way it ultimately takes some power from the car.

Del

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#20
In reply to #3

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:21 PM

Del Del Del,

Don't squash the idea of perpetual motion. We need younger minds to think way outside the box on this subject. I believe it can be done. If I had the R&D funding, I could prove it! This has been my dream for quite some time, I just never had the time or funding. Now I have the time, I don't have the funding yet.

I know, anyone else that has had the training are probably laughing their a$$ off right about now. Must keep an open mind.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:27 PM

Must keep an open mind? That must be the opposite of critical thinking, and understanding one's education...

No thank you.

milo

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:36 PM

It is inside Einsteins Theory of relativity.

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#41
In reply to #22

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 7:13 AM

I thought it was in the Bible.

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#23
In reply to #3

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:48 PM

Why is this perpetual motion any more than a vehicle with a sail? Is not the bladed turbine a sail? Imagine if the wind were blowing crossways to the vehicle, impinging upon a rotor, which will turn a wheel through a gear reduction. I can't see this as perpetual motion.

I understand that expecting a wind rotor to be powered by the wind of motion which comes from a motor, that gets its energy from the wind... is perpetual motion.. but isn't the entire case here.

I do think that it is simpler to employ a sail, and just as efficient. I doubt that any turbine will outperform a sail. But current state of the art in wind powered vehicles, the vehicle can travel 3-4 times faster than the speed of the wind.

eg... http://deviceinn.com/misc/greenbird-a-wind-powered-car-trying-to-the-beat-land-speed-record.html

Chris..

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:56 PM

Oops.. okay.. I see Del is right about what the OP is actually talking about.. sorry.

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#33
In reply to #25

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 3:35 AM

"a wind rotor to be powered by the wind of motion which comes from a motor, that gets its energy from the wind... is perpetual motion.. "

Right. And that's exactly what Takethislife85 is trying to accomplish. I've explained aerodynamic streamlining, wind resistance and wind turbines to him/her twice already. Others have done the same thing as well. All the best to you if you want to try knocking some sense into him/her head. Personally, I doubt he/she will listen: if he/she has been ignoring us all this time, I doubt you'll have better luck.

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#70
In reply to #25

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 4:54 PM

Hey Chris!!

Can you imagine tacking into the wind... going down the freeway? The police would have me pulled over in a minute... and be asking me to blow into this tube thingie which measures blood alcohol level.

"COMING ABOUT!!"

Bill

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#106
In reply to #23

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

05/25/2009 12:59 PM

You need the wind to slow down to achieve greater driving force, so if you use a savonius rotor pointing forward (preferably bowling pin helical) then the slower pass will have greater torque by travelling over the rotor longer. Also bringing the height down to a forward facing point could slip aerodrag whilst shifting on passing air. Alternatively put fan blades inside and on a tractoring belt pointed like a forward antenna or another idea is a series of spindled reversed dish direction satellite antenna with rotor cuts in the dishes. Consider wind calming and directing vanes that are still optimized for aero drag reduction. Also use bigger wheels with minimal contact patches and then you could use the wheels to both have momentum flywheels and catch anything but the oncoming direction winds. I'd consider bigger flywheels running extremely fast off the rotors on gearing that pulses the wheels into action instead of locked gearing that drags the momentum build up down, perhaps use an electric motor for the higher torque requirements.

And avoid people that say this adds nothing, because your really trying to bounce off the air that is already behind you and pushing you back which is now forward. By maximising those forces the aerodrag becomes easier to pass otherwise planes wouldn't fly.

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#35
In reply to #3

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 5:11 AM

Oh, crap....I really wish I hadn't said what I did 10 mintes ago.

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#4

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:48 AM

Q: Also, we are curious about where the best place is to put wind turbines at on a vehicle, to produce as much power as we can.

A: The trunk. Until the car is parked, then set them up, walk away; and hope they produce enough energy to offset what it costs to cart them along.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:51 AM

GA, brief and accurate.

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#75
In reply to #5

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 3:22 AM

It is indeed a GA, but not complete. I've seen some experimental turbines in use ;

....and try telling me this isn't cool !

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 12:44 PM

we want to permanitly mount the turbines. we want the turbines to create energy to recharge, and keep the battery of the car charged.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 1:08 PM

Guest There is certainly a communication problem here, either your question is being misunderstood or you are misunderstanding the answers. J.Conway

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#17
In reply to #8

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 10:15 PM

im sry, im just too lazy to log into my account, the guest is takethislife85. ok, so there must b a communication issue here. but this is out concept. we want to use an electric motor to power the car. no gas, but the problem with these motors is u can only go so far. so we are trying to develope a car where its completly electric, but doesnt need to be pluged in every 50 miles. we want to take a standard sports car, 2 doors. they offer aerodynamics, n they are light weight. but we plan on placing wind turbines, much like the ones u see powering cities, but on a smaller scale. the new electic motors being produced today take up very little space. they are located across the back axle, so we plan on using this concept, also the new lithium-ion batteries are being placed into these cars. they offer mor recharging capabilities, n also hold more of a charge. so that leaves the entire front of the car to place these wind turbines. their purpose is to keep the batteries charged while driving down the road. we are also considering placing a solar pannel on the top of the car to also collect energy. im hoping this clears things up

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 10:56 PM

Takethislife85, we know what you are trying to achieve. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand what we are all trying to tell you. Covering the entire body of the car with solar panels is one thing. If you're using flexible thin film panels and they're mounted flush with the car body they'll offer minimal drag resistance so that's just fine. But mounting a wind turbine is entirely another matter altogether. Cars, particularly sports cars, are streamlined for a very good reason, and that is to minimize aerodynamic drag. The blades of a wind turbine on the other hand are intentionally designed to offer as much wind resistance as possible in order to harness as much energy from the wind as possible. If they offered no wind resistance the air will simply flow around them without performing much, if any useful work. So installing wind turbines on a sports car (or any motor vehicle for that matter) will defeat the whole purpose of streamlining it i.e. any energy saved from streamlining will be lost due to aerodynamic drag.

You came here seeking help, and that's what we're all doing: helping you. However, the onus is on you to accept that we are telling you what you need to know i.e. scientifically proven facts and not what you want to hear. In other words, don't bother pursuing this idea because it won't work. I strongly urge you to research into both aerodynamic drag and the principle of operation of wind turbines if you still cannot understand the very simple English we are all using to explain this to you. If you refuse to heed our advice, at least do this. If not, well don't blame us if you receive a failing grade for your student project at the end of the year.

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#26
In reply to #17

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:59 PM

wraping the body of the car with flex solar cells would help.. dont weigh much... yes just the surface which would be exposed...

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#40
In reply to #17

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 7:05 AM

"im sry, im just too lazy to log into my account, the guest is takethislife85."

I think this statement tells us all we need to know about what we're dealing with here.....

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#48
In reply to #40

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 9:54 AM

u kno wat? im sry if im stil a kid, it was late, n im doing my school work at home. so dnt even judge me when u dnt even kno me. im stil i kid, i have a sense of humor.....

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 1:17 PM

we want to permanitly mount the turbines. we want the turbines to create energy to recharge, and keep the battery of the car charged
Ye
s we know that..we are not the ones who are (how can I put this kindly?) daft.
Your idea is daft and won't work.
Please think long hard and carefully...if you still don't see why it can't work then try lifting yourself off the ground by tugging on your belt.

I'll have one more try at explaining why.

If your car was perfectly aerodynamic and 100% efficient it wouldn't use much power, but as soon as you put a turbine on it, the aerodynamics of the car would be ruined and it's power consumption would increase by more than the amount generated by the turbine.

Do you get it now???

Del

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 1:54 PM

The best part of banging my head against a wall, is that it feels sooo good when I stop!

I'm outta here!

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 2:19 PM

Wait for me....

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 2:42 PM

against the spirit of guru's.

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#19
In reply to #11

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:03 PM

milo

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#27
In reply to #19

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 12:21 AM

Milo and the rest of my new friends. What is so disappointing to me is not that this young high school senior has an impractical idea to try and build a project around. It is that he is in a 12th grade "engineering" class where the teacher appears to not understand the concept of conservation of energy.

So I thought to myself that perhaps I could offer some explanation that takethislife85 would be able to follow. Being the lazy sort that I am I went to a Google search and found the Wikipedia article on the subject. Sure enough, there was a very scholarly dissertation complete with what would be to the average high school student a lot of mathematical hieroglyphics. In the next four pages of the search all I saw was more similar discussions. Maybe a simple explanation was there and I missed it.

Any of you folks want to take a crack at that? Or is this one of those "Houston, I think we have a problem" situations. Are we at a loss for the words we need to explain the foundation principles of science to most of our kids? Are we leaving the process for only the bright few that qualify for a college education in engineering or the sciences?

Hopefully I'm all wrong on this and that our young student will have already discussed his project with his teacher and now understand why the proposed project is impractical.

Ed Weldon

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#42
In reply to #27

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 7:34 AM

Perhaps the teacher does understand & wants them to find out why it won't work.

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#46
In reply to #42

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 9:24 AM

That may be true. I had teachers who would take this approach. Sometimes the best way to learn is to experience the failure of your design, and in the process of figuring out why it failed having that eureka moment...and suddenly you understand. On this topic imparticular, with all the scammers trying to sell over unity, 100% efficient, free energy devices, this may be a great education in why that junk science doesn't work.

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#63
In reply to #46

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 12:07 PM

Best 3 posts on this thread so far (along with the very first response).... It's a shame that so many have to compensate for their inadequacies by attacking a 17 year old rather than just explaining it to him and offering the best advice they can give to minimize energy loss.

For what it's worth, you all deserve GA's.

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#32
In reply to #19

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 3:24 AM

That's so nice of Kilowatt0 to pose for you right after he finished banging his head on the wall. Or did you just happen to pass by and see him in a Kodak moment?

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#16
In reply to #9

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 9:45 PM

Chill out, Del. That's exactly what I told "Takethislife", and he or she simply ignored it. The best thing for you to do now is to curl up in front of the fireplace with a nice saucer of cream and simply pretend you never read this thread.

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#12
In reply to #7

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 2:35 PM

What will rotate that turbine? Its an obstruction no matter what you do it will consume more then what it will give to you.

If you want turbine on a parked car then my question is why on parked car why not on your house roof?

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#6

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 12:30 PM
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#14

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 2:46 PM

As others have said, this won't work ever (the wind turbine always creates drag, causing the vehicle to use more fuel than can be obtained from the wind turbine). See previous threads on CR4 for more information.

Did you have any other ideas?

How big does the car have to be? If it is only a small model then you could build a little circular track fitted with a wireless power transfer system to power the model car around the track. This system is fairly efficient and demonstrates the principle of a self-powered car about as closely as is practical in the real world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer

Also try a google search of "wireless inductive power transfer" for more ideas.

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#15

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 3:13 PM

TANSTAAFL -- I like kilowatt0's answer.

Definition??? Acronym for There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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#24

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/18/2009 11:51 PM

examine the wind tunnel test to determine the flow over the proto - type car ...laminar air flow would not be interupted if the turbines were placed aft of the centerline as detmined by the chord line... see airfoil, aerodynamics..and as so many people are happy to point out wikipedia is an invaluable source of data

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#28

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 12:22 AM

I don't know whether to bite my tounge, pee on the carpet, or go bowling, when I hear students trying to get someone else to do thier homework.

Faced with a similar situation (over the phone), I asked the student what school he was from. Bingo! He got defensive right away. He just wanted to know the answer, so I asked what he had developed so far. He was reluctant but he gave me 'some' of what he had. I told him he was looking at the problem the wrong way. Now he's pissed because I'm not giving him the Holy Grail. I would have gladly sent him off in a better research direction, but by this time his attitude and reluctance to accept advice instead of a direct answer, put me off. I asked again what school, who was his instructor? A few snarling epithets and he hung up.

Best thing to do is ask what school they're from, then guide them in the right direction. Shoddy engineering can get someone seriously injured, or worse.

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#29

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 1:32 AM

Perhaps your engineering class should have an introductory physics class as a prerequisite.

Suppose a car takes 15 hp to move down the road at 50 mpg. Obviously, putting a windmill on that car will profoundly increase the hp required to move the car. Suppose you want a windmill that would generate 15 hp worth of electricity. A wind turbine that will generate about 15 hp requires 30 hp to move it down the road. That means, of course, that the car must now produce 45 hp to maintain 50mph. Your windmill has increased the required hp by 30, but returned only 15 hp in electricity. Thus, you have dramatically reduced your range and increased your energy consumption.

Suppose you think you can create a wind turbine that requires 30 hp to push it down the road but generates 32 hp. This is called an over-unity or perpetual motion machine, and not one such machine has been demonstrated to work... ever.

In this Wikipedia article, you can read about conservation of energy and the first law of thermodynamics. The Museum of Unworkable Devices might help get you oriented too.

A silly, but possible, use of a windmill on a car would be for a hideously complicated regenerative braking system. When you want to slow down, you press on a pedal which would cause the windmill to pop up out of the trunk, and your kinetic energy would be inefficiently converted to electrical energy to charge the batteries. The car would slow because the energy required to turn the turbine blades and generator would be extracted from its kinetic energy. Of course, this would not work anywhere near as well or as easily as the regenerative brakes often use on electric cars.

But otherwise, the only way that a windmill can be beneficial on a car is if the car is stationary, but mounted on a turntable so that it can face into an oncoming wind. Then the energy driving the windmill comes from the wind (which comes from the sun) rather than being extracted from the car's batteries. (Or alternatively, wind not created by the car's motion can be used to power a car with sails or windmills. Such machines are often called land yachts.)

If you are still unclear:

The simpler version of all the above is to ask yourself: What is making the "wind" that causes the windmill to turn? (Answer: the cars' motion.) Where is the energy for the cars motion coming from? (Answer: out of the car's batteries.)

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#38
In reply to #29

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 6:50 AM

On my trips over to Australia, on a Ferry, I was once asked by a traveler why the owners would not harness the energy of the passing waves that the boat was creating. He was suggesting a river boat queen in reverse. I gave up after a few seconds.

Later that week (by coincidence) we were on a little dingy with a 15 HP out boarder and he asked the same Question. I told him to put his hand in the water flowing past and the direction of the boat had to be corrected straight away. His unknowing hands had given him a real sense of drag and he got it, just there and then.

Suppose a car takes 15 hp to move down the road at 50 mpg.

Not to be pedantic but they will pick up on this and feel real smart about other people making mistakes. It just happens all the time and every where. The quality of teaching lays not in what one knows but how to bring it over to the pups. They really want to know and give you a flick if you are not consistent.

Giving the OP a flick would not be right because they really want to know. I am still a pup at my age and no wall is thick enough to not give it a try. The only difference is, I have less bruising now a day's.

I was going to contact you today about a matter some years back on CR4. It is in the pipeline, just haven't had the guts to take a run at the wall yet.

See what happens, Ky.

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#59
In reply to #38

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:53 AM

Thanks. Good catch on the mpg. If only I had some connection between my brain and my gingers! I could do some really freat things then!

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#30

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 3:10 AM

I think this is a joke question, just to get everyone at CR4 at odds with each other. It has been done before, it could be done again.....and you all fell for it!

If this is truly a scholar asking questions for his homework, he must have slept through large parts of this class and missed all the parts about perpetual motion and conservation of energy, amongst others....or he would not be asking such a question in the first place!!

This Blog reminds me of the joke about the Guy driving through the backwoods of England, completely lost. He stops and asks a farmer, sucking on a straw, leaning over a gate into a field:-

"Can you tell me how to get to London from here?"

Who answers him:-

"If I wanted to get to London, I would not start from here!"

This person has not got the background to attempt to do what he wants to do.

I'm off as this is just like "Flogging a dead horse!"

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#36
In reply to #30

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 6:15 AM

Hi Andy

I couldn't agree more. It is like thinking one could pull ones self out of a swamp by ones own hairs. No matter how long they are, it can not be done.

Like Chris has mentioned there are ways to be smart about the situation but that has nothing to do with the OP's inquiry.

Puberty can not be over come by intelligence! It just happens. Big Ideas are over come by laws. Let them try to make teaching a fashion statement, it is not going to make my blood boil over.

There is this wall that some have to run into, again and again. Sleeping and dreaming about ideas is OK but being asleep while laws are being handed out has not helped, ever.

I wish they would hurry up and get it done and over with.

Hope this made some sense, Ky.

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#39
In reply to #30

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 6:57 AM

Forgot Andy. GA.

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#31

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 3:14 AM

Takethislife85,

Is this what you are thinking of?

Wind power speed record bid fails

http://www.greenbird.co.uk/ice-record

History shows that wind power was used by boats and they were not "perpetual Motion" machines, like some on CR4 are suggesting.

To run a car on wind/solar would be a very difficult thing to do, but by no means a "perpetual motion" machine. There is a solar car race... why not wind...across Wyoming...going east...?

Sail boats have a keel that goes way down that produces stability against the forces of the sail, and the land/ice cars have very wide wheel bases to do the same job. Notice that they work on flat places... Why? Because they can use mass to add torque to counter the wind. Going up a hill is not good for high mass...

You would be limited to speed, on average, that would get the Sheriff upset, and to flat roads, unless you have energy storage. You would need a very efficient energy storage system when the wind is not available that would average it all out, and if the wind is straight ahead I don't think you would get away with tacking like a sail boat does. The real question is where could you drive it? In neighborhoods the wind is blocked, and on and on.

The world record for a car is 12,666 mpg. That is .16 flat plate drag and 200 lbs, for a 1.75 lb force at 20 mph.

I am sure most are familiar with wind surfing. So you would need to drive AND control the sail. Possible if you make it automated, or self trimming (see below).

A "self sustaining" car would most likely link your house (wind and solar) to battary storage and an electric car.

If you notice on the wind car link, they use a wing with a tail, just like an airplane does, but vertical. You would allow the wing/tail combination to rotate (like they do) and set the main wind trim to 6 degrees or so where L/D is max (read up on lift slope curves of wings...).

If the wind exceeded your tipping counter force ability you would just turn the wing into the wind. You can do this with the tail trim angle that sets the Angle of Attack of the main wing. If you set the tail to trim the wing to zero Angle of Attack, then it would produce no force regardless of speed and relative wind, and would turn into the wind. Such a thing is called a "freewing" airplane. You could link the trim to the stability wheel so that when it started to tip the car, it would move the trim to unload the wing... Free wings have been around for 80 years, but seldom used, but may be key to airplane safety...I am using one on my new design...in the horizontal plane (flat, not vertical, of course.

Turbines...it is just a rotary wing... Recently in "Sport plane Magazine" a guy showed a new prop design that got 90% efficiency. You would have to design it correctly for low speed (10-15 mph) and have it with a tail, like an old style windmill, or with a controller. Because of the circular motion, props (turbines) like to have the wind directly into them. If the wind comes from the side, the prop blade, as it spins around, sees a different Angle of Attack and the efficiency drops sharply. You would have to compensate for this as the blade moved around. I don't know of any props that can do that and it would be very complex. A duct would be needed, but that would be heavy, draggy.... Therefore, using a prop or turbine is not likely to be better than a wing/tail system.... You put a small electric motor in the wheel to generate some electricity for storage, instead of a turbine.

Where to put it? Look at the land/ice car link...

To make something work you would be on the cutting edge of research to say the least. Practical? No, of course not. Fun...sure... Costly? Depends on how smart you are....

I would suggest you use this "high school" exercise to learn something about aerodynamics, power, and energy. I was inspired to be a mechanical engineer (masters degree) because I learned to fly in High School. I decided I wanted to build airplanes (seaplanes now). I am still working on the dream, and in the mean time have learned a lot about engineering, especially after I got out of college.... It is lots of fun... Go for it...

_

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#55
In reply to #31

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:42 AM

Hi Seaplaneguy,

I gave your answer a GA for its positive tone.

I fear, however, the the term "self-sustaining" means that the student thinks that the apparent wind caused by the car's motion can used to recharge the batteries. (i.e., It's the equivalent of hanging a propeller at the tail of a plane to charge the batteries that power the electric motor. Boy... I'd love to have one of the electric sailplanes.) I'd like to see him clarify exactly what he has in mind. In many locations around the country, the windmill that can supply enough energy to charge a car while it is stationary, relying on the geothermal wind for energy input, has a blade span larger than the width of the car: better to mount it on a large, tall, tower.

I've been planning to post a thread on the "perpetual motion" aspect of fast land yachts and iceboats. (I built a soft water boat to go after the record in that category, and even it would sail at multiples of windspeed, and the same odd physics apply. Actually "odd" is not exactly the right word -- there is nothing magic, but it requires a bit of head scratching to figure out what's going on. Interestingly, there have been articles in the sailing literature showing that it is "impossible" to sail faster than wind speed -- obviously that's BS.)

Sheesh, isn't it typical that the thing that makes no sense at all regarding the failed speed record attempt is the thing that gets highlighted. The problem is climate change, they say... of course, what could be more plausible???. As you know, I am not a "human cause of global warming denier" but there is no way on earth that you can say that a particular weather event is caused by global warming and not sound like a total, babbling idiot. The models used to show a general global trend are almost impossibly complex. A model to show a local weather event would be phenomenally more complex. (You can say, "yes, as a thought experiment, we can see how butterfly wingbeats in Mexico could cause a tornado in Africa" You cannot say that there is any conceivable way that you can trace a particular tornado in Africa back to a particular butterfly in Mexico.) I spoke with the people from this team years ago, and I'm sure they are not that wacko -- he probably made the comment in frustration and in a off-handed manner, and the reporter presented it as if it was to be taken seriously. (It is as if I can prove that global warming is not occurring because it was unseasonably windy and cold here last week... arrgh)

In any case, GA. Partly because it is positive, but mainly because you are writing about stuff that I happen to thrive on -- the GA system is pretty subjective.

BTW -- took my 13-year-old daughter out for her first flight lesson last week. She was thrilled, and did really well. I think I will rely mainly on a hired instructor, because I think he could be more efficient. I found his explanation of lift, for instance, completely lacking from a technical perspective -- but it was exactly what she needed, given her experience. (By happy coincidence, she was studying flight in science class.) As you can probably guess (from my typically long CR4 posts) I have a tendency to delve into details that are unnecessary to be able to simply fly the damn plane. (For example, I could not resist the urge to comment on the little hole in the wing of the Cessna we flow -- which used to be used to feed a reed style stall warning -- which I have always thought of as way cool in its simplicity -- but which now feeds [pneumatoelectrically] an electric horn, which sounds exactly like the old reed -- although is doesn't waver.)

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#61
In reply to #55

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:56 AM

For those who crave well crafted detailed information, you are a goldmine. GA just for being here..lol

Chris

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#66
In reply to #61

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 12:59 PM

Dittos' chris. GA to Blink.

milo

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#62
In reply to #31

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:58 AM

Between you and Blink, I'm not sure who to bow to first. GA

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#34

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 4:06 AM

There is one way of looking at it: any car has some amount of drag no matter how aerodynamically perfect you make it. This is partly related to the frontal area that the car has, which is why a van or truck has more aerodynamic drag than say a ferrari. This amount of drag is always a loss so in theory you could use it to generate power. This could be done by putting a turbine through the center of the car (longitudinal) and would be driven mainly by the (wind) speed of the car. Of course this will affect the aerodynamic behaviour of the car "in flight" but maybe some advantage could be taken from this set-up. There is however one problem to this type of setup: for it to be in any way efficient I would be left without any room in the car to sit!!!

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#57
In reply to #34

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:48 AM

why does every one assume the turbine is 16 feet in diameter?

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#37

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 6:26 AM

Why not a land based wind turbine to charge a battery bank sited off the vehicle, then utilise the battery bank to spin up a gyroscope for initial motion for the car. For top up whilst moving down hill as well as imparting fresh energy into the gyro flywheel you could also run an alternator connected to the transmmission to chrage a small on board battery.

By using transmission power pick up you can avoid external drag issues and by having the main battery bank off vehicle you save a tremendous amount of weight

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#43

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 8:08 AM

takethislife85,

My suggestion is to ignore what you have heard so far and go ahead with what you have planned. When this does not work then perhaps you can come back and read through the posts and learn why - at least that way you will actually have learned something.

Just remember, you will probably learn more from failed projects that you will from projects that work straight away.

Best of luck,

Mr. W.A Snow

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#54
In reply to #43

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:35 AM

i find your answer a positive . it's easy in the world to see someone's attempt and dismiss it out of hand as either inane or at BEST A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME , as so many have pointed out.... it's a damn shame more people won't see : that a cry for help requires a lifesaver not a boot on the head

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#44

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 8:23 AM

What about the "Scalextric Solution":

  • Land-based wind-farm
  • Power conductors embedded in the road surface
  • Wiper or roller pick-up onto the vehicle
  • Battery storage and electric motor control on-board

Eh?

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#45

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 8:56 AM

Come on everyone, Ease up! Obviously this kid has taken on a very interesting topic, even though we have given several examples of probable failure, but as we all know there is alway's more than one way to "skin a cat" and who know's he might find an other way that know one has thought of! He is trying to learn and he has made it clear to us that he is lazy and he doesn't construct full sentences, but that is besides the point. Negativity will not help him, although we at the most part are correct we need to keep it positive for him for him to advance positively in his future!

Remember this quote, I will claim it as I don't know who said it. ;-)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement!" LOL.

Josh H

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#47

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 9:25 AM

I think I understand younger minds pretty well. I try & operate in a youthfull manner. Take your favorite turbine... measure the output at different speeds (place an electric fan or connect to a separate motor) for a set time. Then take your vehicle & measure how much energy is consumed at different speeds, etc. In addition- make sure that the test vehicle is fully armed with that 'favorite' turbine & 'running' against the total wind resisitance this arrangement entails. Compare these numbers.. By the way ... some of these measurements can be taken at the same time... or rather in the same set up. I apologize for the skimpy instructions- I don't have much engineering trng. Carlos

"The choices you make might be mistakes but it's never too late to turn around." Johnny Lang- musician

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#49

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 10:10 AM

alright. im sry that im a kid, still in high school. we were givin the chance to pick any topic we wanted to. so im sry that we decided to choose somthing that can challenge our minds. im just trying to explain this project in depth so that everyone that reads this, understands the project and we can get good feed back. we are not stupid little kids, were just not experienced. were still in high school and still kids.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 10:56 AM

Bang on! I applaud you for even attempting something of this magnitude. Don't be discouraged, as you actually got allot of great responses which already has expanded your knowledge and thought paths. A forum such as this is a great way to learn, you get different ideas and experiences which you can apply to this and future endeavors.

When I was in grade 7 (in the early '80s) We had to do science projects and I decided to get power out of a Lemon, used a galvanized nail and a penny stuck it in it, tried different alloy's and that seemed to work the best. I called it "SOUR POWER" and ran a hearing aid I made out of my electronic project kit. I came in 2nd because the teachers picked a grade 8 student and said I had another year to try again.

Although I was discouraged, I learned allot and carried that on to my later years and professional career.

Good Luck and don't give up!

Josh.

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:03 AM

Did you talked to your teacher before thinking in this line?

If not, I ll say you have great future.

If yes I ll say you still have great future,but not your teacher.

Good-luck!!

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#53
In reply to #49

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:07 AM

Listen kid, we understand that you came here for advice, but you have to understand that the Laws of Science are exactly that, laws. Right from my very first post I already explained to you why it won't work. I even suggested an alternative for you: use thin film solar panels molded to fit the contours of the car so as to minimize drag. Will it succeed? Possibly. Will it generate enough power to drive the car and charge the batteries? Honestly speaking, I don't know. Will it generate enough power to operate the peripherals? Probably. It will definitely succeed, if your definition of success is that the panels can generate power while on the go. But will generate enough to power the car without having to use the batteries? Well that's where experimentation comes in. Since this is definitely a lot more feasible than installing a wind turbine on a car, why don't you try it out instead? After all, experimental solar-powered cars already exist: they're just highly inefficient, but they still work.

Look here kid, I want to apologize to you on everyone's behalf here if we've hurt your feelings, but you also have to listen. I explained to you twice why it won't work. Others have also tried to explain to you the same thing. At the very least, acknowledge it. We're not trying to bully you or anything, we're just trying to reason with you. Why else do you think I showed such exasperation? It's because you kept saying that this is what you want to do, which would imply that you're ignoring our advice. If you want to find out the hard way that it won't work, that's your prerogative, but why waste all your time and effort on a fool's errand when you've already learnt that it will be a failure?

Chin up will you, and find a different project that's more worthy of your time. Once you've found a more practical idea, we're here to help you if you need.

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#60
In reply to #53

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:53 AM

Der Tkthslif85,

u mst accpt 1 fct.

u cnt psh a cr wth fuel u gt frm pshng. yr inpt is lss thn yr outpt. fll stp.

Chrs

bst wshs

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#58
In reply to #49

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:52 AM

oh btw, using text short hand to communicated with these people might not be in your best interest in the future

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#52

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:06 AM

A wind turbine on a car will only create more energy than drag if it is coasting down a very steep mountain. This is a well understood issue with aircraft pilots. When ever possible they will stop an un-powered propeller in order to reduce drag that slows the still flying air craft.

TooMuchFun

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#56
In reply to #52

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 11:42 AM

the only reason a pilot would ever feather a prop is to keep it from sperating from the hub.... all prop's in todays turbo prop engines have variable pitch baldes ...

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#64
In reply to #56

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 12:33 PM

A friend of mine who piloted B-17's during the second World War explained to me that props were feathered to reduce drag upon engine failure. One dose not need to be an aircraft engineer to comprehend that propellers produce drag. In fact it is this resistance to stable air that is over come by the powered propeller that causes the air craft to move forward. A spinning propeller covers more space than one that is "feathered" and horizontal feathering is preferred.

But lets stick to the thread, there have been cars pushed by propellers but no one has yet been successful at recharging batteries or otherwise providing enough energy to over come the resistance created by attempting to do what the thread poster is asking.

TooMuchFun

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#65

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 12:57 PM

Ha Ha, all I can picture is a Clown car with a whole bunch of colourful pinwheels atached to it! Perhaps the "Circus Clowns" are one up on all of us! LOL

Josh.

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#67

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 2:50 PM

Woh, this thread exploded overnight didn't it. As Dave Lister once said on that iconic television program "Red Dwarf", "Lets flag down a yellow cab and head for real street".

As others have said and explained here (and on numerous previous threads on CR4, some with a lot more detail) putting a wind turbine on a car to recharge the batteries while it is moving isn't ever going to be practical. Take it from me, I play with the big 2.5MW windfarm turbines with blades the size of Boeing 747 wings. What others have said (in various ways) is that if you attempt this project all you will get is a good practical example of the conservation of energy and real world physics, which may be fine as a learning tool if that is what you (and your teacher) are after (after all we seem to learn and remember thru failure as well if not better than thru our success).

As I have said in my previous post (#14), what about trying something else other than wind turbines. A vehicle powered by thin film solar panels is a good little project but as I (and others) have explained in previous threads on CR4, you don't get a lot of power out of them so vehicle design, weight and energy conservation techniques become very, very important (making the project quite challenging but possible for a high school workshop with a small team of eager students and some outside technical assistance).

Google "solar racer" for plenty of information on self-sustained purely solar/battery powered vehicles.

Also, you didn't mention what your budget, your vehicle size and your available project time. These will seriously limit what is actually possible (electric vehicles and their batteries and control electronics can be quite expensive). Can you let us know what these are for your particular project?

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 3:38 PM

by placing a wind turbine in the " slip stream"..seen em as small as 14" in dia...made from plexiglass..could be both practical & efficent...it's a good thing einstein , tesla , bell, wright bros , didnt listen to the people who told em thier ideas wouldnt ever work...

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#71
In reply to #68

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 5:20 PM

<sigh>

Thanks for the idea (it is by no means a new one by the way) but no. If in doubt, try it for yourself. The fundamental principle of electrical generators is that as you draw more current from them they require more effort to turn, hence increasing the drag. The reason turbines are used on planes is not to create extra energy to offset fuel usage (as you are probably aware). If the concept worked (as you think) then all planes would be fitted with them, saving companies millions (or billions) of dollars each year in fuel costs.

it's a good thing einstein , tesla , bell, wright bros , didnt listen to the people who told em thier ideas wouldnt ever work...

Please don't use this tired free energy babble argument instead of facts to try and justify something. They didn't break any physical laws doing what they did, and aerodynamics and motor theory are very well understood and proven concepts.

If you have any further questions on this particular subject, look at the numerous threads on CR4 explaining the subject FIRST. Many people (including myself) have spent hundreds of hours (combined) writing and explaining these supposed free energy, over unity and theoretical physical law-bypassing concepts and scams.

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#69

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 3:46 PM

Failure is the best way to learn.As long as you find out why it failed.

Now your wind turbine car will fail to recharge. What you try to do is the same as trying to use an electric motor to turn an alternator and use the alternator to power the electric motor.

On the other hand you can use the turbine and solar cell the recharge the batteries when the car is parked and motor not running.

I'll put pedal in the car which connect to alternator so passangers can help recharge the batteries.

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#73
In reply to #69

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 5:40 PM

... and the driver standing... with the steering wheel in one hand, and a whip in the other hand... screaming "Peddle Faster You Slugs!!!"

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#76
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Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 8:24 AM

<...Failure is the best way to learn.As long as you find out why it failed...>

Provided no-one gets hurt and there are no liability implications from the failure, perhaps?

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#72

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 5:25 PM

Interesting thread! A bit wacky in places but interesting! How about taking a two pronged approach! Use a light weight sail car with a small wind fan on the back! The wind fills the sail and pushes the car along like a boat. This forward motion forces wind through the fan which charges the batteries! When the wind drops, the stored charge in the batteries is used to turn the fan creating forward motion! Obviously, the sail would be stowed when using the fan! And obviously the fan would create drag when using the sail but if the sail was big enough to catch enough wind then..........Hold on, scrap the fan idea and just put a motor/dynamo on the wheels. It may work or it may not!

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#74

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/19/2009 5:50 PM

I have read the many responses regarding your idea. Only you seem to think that there is something to be learned regarding this idea! Sooooo! I think that you should construct an example of that which you dream about, "using your own allowance of course," AND; get back to us with your latest knowledge, " maybe "we" have something to learn.

Over the years, I have accomplished, completed work, on time, for far less than the Engineers estimates regarding the costs would likely be. Ex: I Bid $250,000 for a contract to construct a shell/grade road through a flooded Florida prarie. The next closest bid was $750,000, others topped a cool million. I made a $100,000 for the contractor I was working for. I was the Project Mgr. I did what the others didn't do. We all pre viewed the the area during the middle of the rainey season, when most of the area was under 12" to 24" of water. The project was stated to begin in 4 months. This was 1 month into what would be the drought season. We started work in the areas that were the dryest and by the time we progressed to the wet areas they were almost a desert. We were having to haul water into be able to compact the fill material.

If you can accomplish something that compares with this example with the subject of your thread, you will likely become wealthy, and surely ace the course.

TooMuchFun

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#77
In reply to #74

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 9:22 AM

Toomuchfun,

"Only you seem to think that there is something to be learned regarding this idea" - he/she might learn why it does not work. Now what exactly would be wrong with that?

Not really sure where the boasting about your expolits fits into the thread.

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#79
In reply to #77

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 10:37 AM

Experience is an excellent teacher, sometimes a little information regarding the responder helps one to determine the credibility of the response. Through out my professional life I have accomplished performances that other professionals said could not be done.

Now as for the subject of this thread. If this kid lives in the Sierra Nevada mountains and wants to mount an extremely efficient wind turbine on his vehicle that can be electronically stowed away internally, When motoring down these mountains he likely could generate useful power for resupply to his batteries. On the other hand, if he is located in the western area of the Great state of Texas where there is nothing but more of the same miles and miles of more miles and miles of very flat landscape, I doubt that his wind turbine assistance issue is going to function at all.

Or maybe this one blew right over your head too!

TMF

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 2:21 PM

"Experience is an excellent teacher" - quite true, but you will never gain experience by not doing anything.

"Through out my professional life I have accomplished performances that other professionals said could not be done." - but yet you will try and discourage the poster from trying.

It is quite clear that you are one to blow your own trumpet.

Not really sure what to make about your "Or maybe this one blew right over your head too!" comment.

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 4:12 PM

My late father taught me long ago that there is no shame in "Blowing your own trumpet" it is likely that no one else is going to blow it for you. Further the lesson went like this, I is no brag if it is an undeniable fact. Just make sure that you can back up your comments with the facts. That shuts the doubters every time.

The fact is that virtually every poster who has responded to this thread has advised the young man to look for another way other than wind turbines mounted on a car. These are Engineers and Scientists. Like them or not I feel that I am overwhelmingly in good company on this one.

TMF

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#78

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 10:27 AM

Dear takethislife85:

"Our idea is to create a self sustained electric car. We have a few issues though and are looking for advice"

You will agree that for anything to be self-sustaining, there has to be an "INFLOW" of energy in proportion to the "OUTFLOW" .

So there has to be an inexhaustible "SOURCE" of energy always close at hand constantly topping up whatever has been spent.

While you may generate some power from the turbine placed in front or back or wherever, you have yourself realised ;"First, we have researched that by placing wind turbines in the front of the vehicle, that it will cause too much drag and cause the motor to work harder.". This means, your stored electric energy will be exhausted much earlier than being without the turbine and its capacity to generate energy utilising the motion generated "relative" wind flow. Then also you have to contend with the "efficiency" of the generation.

If you happen to be in a "windy" zone, and you have given the wind turbine the freedom to face the NET component of wind force experienced by the vehicle, you may yet get some useful input to your electrical storage system.

"Lastly, we are also not too sure how much power a wind turbine creates,"

This will depend upon the overall design of the wind turbine and can vary from a few watts to megawatts depending of course on the AVAILABLE wind and conversion efficiency of the turbine.

Keep up the habit of thinking without bothering too much about right or wrong, to be determined by practical reality.

Regards

D.Ramakrishna Naidu

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#81

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 2:54 PM

Failure is still a learning experience. You now know another way NOT to do it!

Bill

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#83
In reply to #81

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 9:04 PM

Sure, failure is a learning experience. But how will our young friend know when he has failed in the pursuit of this efficiency improvement to automobile design?

One could flog this dream for decades (literally) experimenting with one or another new energy collecting, conversion or storage idea. Endlessly the cycles of failure to reach the goal and unwillingness to deal with root issues or admit that there are fundamental flaws.

I've seen this in the work of inventors, business people and especially automobile racers. In every case the projects are big and while the overall determination of success is easy (Did we make money, set the record, win the prize?) the intermediary metrics of progress or feasibility somehow get set aside if the news may be bad. All to often the very complexity of such efforts barriers to progress; the passing of which tend to mask the lack of real success.

You guys who are suggesting that this fellow put a lot of time, effort and maybe even money into learning a simple lesson of basic physics via a major automobile project are not doing him any favors. Better you put your creative efforts into framing a much simpler experiment to test out his basic ideas.

At the rate you are going all this fellow is liable to learn is that adults can be expected to string him along chasing a modern day variant of a left handed monkey wrench for their own entertainment; a motive that I don't really think any of you have.

Ed Weldon

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#84
In reply to #83

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/20/2009 10:01 PM

I agree that an early success in technical ventures is important. There is a good reason for beginners luck.. It is to help motivate and develop the enthusiasm for the longer run... GA.

Chris

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#86
In reply to #83

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 2:32 AM

Hi Ed

That was very honest and true and to the point. I wanted to give you a good answer but it was an off topic entry. There are now 6 GA's and one of them could have been mine. It would have counted to the off topic score and I did not want that. Just being the pedantic old bastard I am.

Now I know that one cannot vote on an "off topic". I bloody learn every day.

Very good reply, Ky.

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#85

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 1:55 AM

Takethislife85 Ok let's look at what level of efficiency you might be able to achieve. Anything close to what you would like is not possible with todays technology so let's see how close you might come. Start with the smallest lightest most aerodynamic body and frame you can build. Conventional tires and wheels are to inefficient so you will have to build some sort of alloy rim with a firm band of some high friction low drag material as a tire. Forget the fan or propeller type turbine for there's way to much drag created. Your vehicle should be a three wheel design with the single wheel on the back and your electric motor direct coupled to one side and a variable output alternator direct coupled to the other side. Anytime the grade of the road allows you will remove power from the motor and adjust power to the alternator to output only enough power to prevent a gain in speed. All breaking will be done by a load from the alternator. Another parasitic lose is from the bearings, they will probably need to be ceramic with a light oil for lubrication. This goes for all bearings. Your choice of storage batteries is of the greatest importance so do your research. Have only enough battery reserve for a practical distance between charges. Remove all the friction you can, keep the weight as low as you can, consider all the thin film photo cells you have room for. And if you just have to have a rotor blade let it be in the form of a fan blowing on the driver. Maybe this will help guide you in another direction and start asking more questions. The abilities to increase efficiency increase daily but I don't think we will ever see 100%, there will always be a need for something expendable to keep it going. Best of luck so now get off your lazy behind and study. J.Conway

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#87
In reply to #85

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 3:00 PM

could every one please look any picture of an f 15 from the front....there is one glaring source of energy collection device staring every one right in the face...." ram air "....as already stated...aerodynamics may MAY have lead to a search of pneudraulics... a 4 foot common house hold dryer exhust vent tube , some duct tape , although semi rigid 2 part 3m epoxy would be better, but lets stay within the budget of some high schools having fun building this car and learning, and having life long memories that no one should attempt to hinder, so what if fails??.. it's the experince of learning and growing thats the value here....i digress... a 1 lb. can of putty..and the face of your kmart special 6 inch fan/ heater .. scrap all but the fan and its rotor from the kmart special, every one has seen the ferrari's of the 50's with the scoops on it..? well behold ... aft of the door .. in the rear quarter panel .. on the leading edge of the panel cut and fit the hose and its common home depot adapter .. { bondo ..putty..} feed the hose to the area you want the fan placed.. mount the house and fan.. you're smart enough to determine that ..ensure that as your modeling the routing of this hose, that you shape the hose..Venturi effect..?Bernouli's Priniciple..?? hint in 4 foot run maybe one hump on the left one hump on the right.. once provided with a source of controlable air , well.. thats the whole story..yes, as soooo many pointed out PROPELLERS would be incorrect,, but impeller ... motor.. battery charger.....oh, yes dont forget to duct the fan exhust..also a potential source for a pneumatic storage system .. ? air conditioning ?;..

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 3:25 PM

So an F15 runs on air!! I guess the fuel tanks are just for added ballast, to keep it stable! When they refuel in mid air, are they just blowing more air into the system to give it a boost! Most of these style of fans have a system to drive them! I might not know much about jet engines but I do know they need a fuel source!

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#89
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Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 5:01 PM

rofl mao....

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#90
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Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 5:35 PM

ahuha --

For those of us that are still of limited literacy in this new language what does "mao" mean? (I understand "rofl").

Ed Weldon

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#91
In reply to #90

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/21/2009 10:08 PM

my comment?...it said the retort of the other person was so inane as cause to delerium...mao....my _ ss off

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#93
In reply to #91

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 5:15 AM

I'm so happy you enjoyed my 'inane' comment!

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 10:12 AM

oh , yes,, it's kept me entertained for daze now...

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#92
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Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 2:02 AM

My Ass Off.

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#95

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 12:58 PM

In response to takethislife85 and all responses postsed, I just ran across this:

Alternative Energy Inventions

Running a Car on Wind Energy News ยป Energy | Biofuels | Environment | Hydrogen | Solar | Transportation | Wind January 28th, 2009

A new power packed performance super car has been designed in California that can run at the speed of 155 mph without conventional fuel. For startup this car will use solar powered battery but later draw its energy from circulating air. An advanced alternating current induction motor will glide the Formula AE. This motor will have a power output of 212 kilowatts. Rory Handel and Maxx Bricklinas from Beverly Hills, California are responsible for the design of the sleek motor of the car, and they are hoping that the prototype would be completed in August.

To achieve an acceleration of 0 to 60 mph this car will take less than four seconds. A full battery would empower the driver to travel more than 200 miles or to race around a track for an hour. Four tactically placed air intakes will be built discretely into the car's bodywork. These air intakes will channel the airflow over the car's body towards the turbine. There are two intakes on the front of the car and one on each side towards the rear. The turbine is concealed within the car body and will be connected to an alternator. This alternator will boost the amount of electricity available to the car by 20 to 25 per cent.

Car's paper thin solar paneling can be recharged in 1.5 hours. But manufacturers will reduce this time six minutes with a new battery. The car will have a body of lightweight aluminum and super strong steel. The car is expected to cost around 100,000 pounds when it hits the market.

A RORMaxx spokesman says about its target customers, "The target market would be the sports car, track day, eco-concerned auto-enthusiast. In addition, those enthusiasts who support and would want to promote the future development of revolutionary green technologies."

Mr Handel, who used to work for a racing team as an engineer, said: "In today's world we need something to spark the imagination of our generation, the ones who will advocate change in this tough time - Formula AE has set out to do just that."

"The vehicle will demonstrate the capabilities of our creative ideas in synergy with the implementation of new alternative energy systems, also with a larger goal of setting the public's attitude towards green technology on a more productive path."

http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/running-a-car-on-wind-energy/

To takethislife85, keep working on what you're doing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: Someone has already proposed this idea on the thread, if I remember right, this poster also stated there would be no room for the driver. That is if I remember right... At my age, memory chips need replacement.

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 2:47 PM

Thanks for the link.

Well they have got the right idea, but their range extension figures using thin film solar panels and air-powered turbines are totally unrealistically high, which makes me suspicious that this is a scam (or just misleading marketing). There are also some glaring mistakes in the news article which should never have got thru such as the following

Car's paper thin solar paneling can be recharged in 1.5 hours. But manufacturers will reduce this time six minutes with a new battery.

I hope the reporter totally misunderstood and they are not actually trying to say that the solar panels will recharge the batteries of their car in 1.5 hours.

From their website they state a 15-40% range increase for thin film flexible (5-30W, likely 12V) solar panels for a 200kW sports car. No the math doesn't add up (even with the car covered in panels all receiving 100% light), it's out by orders of magnitude. I wonder if they mean leaving the car out in the sun all day, even then the math still doesn't add up.

See previous threads on solar-powered cars for the real world math behind them.

Still, something to watch however.

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#98
In reply to #96

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 5:44 PM

timely introduction of this " beakthrough" concept car?...in the 50's general dynamics f- 102 & f 106 used a pneumatic storage system to inject into the airplanes starter and 1st stage of compression.. the f - 15 is even more refined .. it's system uses the air to start a small jet engine which in turn provides the required electrical and pneumatic loads for starting engines and radio's ...airplanes as old as 1954 had variable inlets to control the airflow to the turbine... then of course the after burner concept .. to control the flow of the gases after " spending " their orginal purpose..

but as you see.. the information presented in that article appears suspect .. the math isn't correct..is that a scam or just a poorly writen article..?

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/22/2009 10:34 PM

but as you see.. the information presented in that article appears suspect .. the math isn't correct..is that a scam or just a poorly writen article..?

Both. The article is very poorly written, but the figures and claims I mention are directly off the RORMaxx website.

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: Wind Turbines for an Electric Car

03/23/2009 12:48 PM

i do find it entertaining that the concept car has " suddenly " appeared with the details that were pro-offered in the thread..? does that happen a lot? suddenly the high school project becomes a business and a cry for funding?

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