Motorcycle Accident...

Yes there are instances where laying it down is the best course of action & yes make as much separation as you can manage paying special attention to the leg on the down side [imagine kicking the seat with it].

Practice guess what that moron [no offense Mr. Bumble] is going to do & looking for escape routes [you can play this game in the car too]

Rule #1 is when the going get tough point towards less danger

oncoming traffic being at the top of the dangerous scale, drive way of your house at the desirable end

so what about rocket ejection equipment and parachute class of ideas that can both remove the rider from collision, and perhaps redirect the inertia of the bike? (plus a shutdown cord)

On that note, what about engineering methods to help overcome the centrifugal forces of the wheels, so that turning is more responsive at normal highway speeds? (ie, other counterrotating gyro rotors that operate horizontally, but can be differentiated to assist the turn)(could also be part of braking system)

I have no words after watching...

http://www.snagtube.com/watch-video/i-have-no-words-after-watching--/699433

I have words

Oh look another segment of the driving population that is more dangerous to the public than motorcycles

Wow, I couldn't even finish watching that, ugh. Back to my old high school drivers ed class. Doe's have a visual and conscious impact no doubt, and yes, Garth, agreed!

one reason I complain less to my daughter about her bike is that she is a paramedic, so I'm fairly certain she has seen the dangers of stupidity on a bike close up. On the other side of the coin though, is that the job is an intense one, and being wired for a bit of adrenalin, she likes things that go fast. She has also jumped out of airplanes, bungy-jumped etc.

Chris

one of the reason it's so hard to get riders to wear gear, is the cool factor, Kevlar jeans or chaps are a good example of safety, being camouflaged with a cool veneer

I can tell you that when it's hot

a vented full face helmet is more comfortable than open faced or no helmet. The wind in your hair might be cool, but a blast furnace on your eyes ain't

things have changed over the years, there are many more effective choices for gear...

in the off road world I saw chest protector/shoulder pads go from being for sissies to being standard equipment.

GA..good advice and I'll add do not out drive your headlights

There's another story when I was tackled by two five foot diameter tumble weeds rolling together one dark night go figure how do you prepare for that thankfully I was going less than 20 mph with no other traffic. It was a Santa Anna wind condition evening and these two sticker monsters attacked the gas tank an handle bars and took me and the bike to the curb .

I recall a late night ride through the desert outside of Tucson Arizona and as I topped a whoop-dee-do into a sand-wash; wet season creek crossing the road, the road ahead was filled with cattle . Image being a cow when suddenly a bright light and the thunder of a 1973 XLCH appears , those cows sure got moving but in every direction .

Thanks for the memory run I may return to south western USA...

Hi Chris, I think your framed in mc is a good idea.

(Having come off myself a couple of times, and also seen my son's
leg crushed by a turning car. MC's are not to be used lightly.)

A lift-up "cage" with "style" could catch on, and hopefully become
compulsory. But it would need careful thought & design. Importantly:

The legs need protection, - as was partly afforded by the old "mudguard"
style; they were fixed upon a "bull guard" type of mounting, which
unfortunately would not be fashionable today. (should be wrap-around)

And, some "screen" effect - for being thrown over the handle bars.
These I think would go a long way in reducing injuries to the riders;
subject to testing. (helmets and suits may cover the rest.)

What I am suggesting here is "back door" evolution of a safety frame;
intending to appeal to, and not to enforce, the enthusiastic riders.
Considerable skill is required by the manufacturers to "sell" these ideas;
and, like seat belts, when their worth, following their appeal, is found,
compulsion may become acceptable. (for everyone's good, naturally.)

jt.

I had a job in archeology; but gave it up when I realised my life was in ruins.

The major rider groups in the US & EU think leg protectors are a bad idea

The write-up on that link did not impress me. Including:

"The Federation achieved many other successes such as the rejection of compulsory
motorcycle clothing, and most importantly: the victory against the incoherent and
dangerous leg-protector or airbag proposals."

All I do know is that the "mudguards" saved my legs on occasions and,
my son suffered terrible leg injuries, without any such protection.

May I recommend the writers visit the hospital surgery wards; - and watch the
regular daily flow of young men, healthy young men trying to recover from the
various degrees of leg injuries.
The hidden pain of the parents, as they console their once healthy young men,
leaving to try rebuild their lives, on crutches, and wheelchairs. This I do know.

jt.

Experience can be a profound teacher.

In some sorts of accidents

sure, reinforced lower fairings will offer some level of increased protection

in other types of accidents feet & legs will become trapped in the "protection" & the severity of the injuries will be increased.

leg protectors certainly shouldn't be mandatory.

one could argue against the feet forward riding position favored by cruisers

handlebars that are very tall [ape hangers] or have excessive pull back, also reduce the riders ability to control the machine

the best protection against injury is to avoid them in the 1st place

I also don't agree with the theory that at a certain point it is better to lay it down...

Always better to try to ride it out, slow down & or avoid a crash....

In my experience as a rider and accident investigator leg injuries most often occur when a motorcycle is hit from the side and when an improperly/inadequately trained rider refuses to dismount when laying the bike down is necessary.

Rule #1 when the going gets rough let the bike go, get away from it and properly laying a bike down is in no way aided by any protective bars.

My condolences for your agony about the boy...

Thank you Bwire.

I would like to see the mc's being legally severely limited in power
and weight. This would make them transports of convenience,
and not the glamour speed machines of self destruction.

jt.

How about an air bag(s) in the suit that protects vital areas upon impact?

The one in the steering wheel is very compact, but one designed for a cyclist could be even smaller/lighter.

Eh?

I think it would work well inside a roll cage. NaturalExtraction (Tim) showed a video with a suit-mounted neck-based air bag.. very interested.

There are a number of "airbag" jackets available. Looked at one today. Has a ripcord to attach to the bike that inflates a protective cushion around your chest.

There are helmets, neck braces,, chest protectors, shoulder pads and braces, spine protectors, kidney belts, hip protectors, knee pads and braces, leather riding suits, bike boots, all engineered to the highest degree of the latest carbon and kevlar compounds.

The only thing that has not been developed to protect the rider are Pills for Stupid. And boy have I needed them some days!

What a great Post!!

In Germany, a motorcyclist has about 2000 times more chances of dying on the road than any car driver, no matter what or who is the cause.

I have not regularly ridden a bike since the early 60's, it was dangerous enough then, now we have 30 x the traffic.....

In my youth almost everyone went from Pushbike to motorbike to car and knew what a bike could and could not do and were more aware of them.

Many of the 1st class idiots behind the wheel of a car today have never ridden a bike....they do not have a clue.

Any motorcyclist on a bike today who does not know and understand the "score" today is simply being at best stupid......or has a death wish.......sorry, but thats how I see it.

Having a car resting on your chest and croaking " I had the right of way!" simply does not cut it for me.

Here is a video clip of the scene. I was told that the bike rider was charged in this incident. (even though he was behind the van) and apparently the van driver was male.

last week there was another rider killed...(red deer advocate)

Good question. Unfortunately, any bike will come out last in a collision with any 4-wheel vehicle because of the weight difference and lack of metal protection. I rode a long time ago when I was young and foolish and had my share of spills. Better sense prevailed in later years. Accidents happen when bikers try to accelerate out of a potentially dangerous situation. Braking is usually not an option. Education is probably the best that can be hoped for in making biking more safe. Many accidents are caused by auto motorists. In day to day driving, my observation is there are just not that many bikes on the road. The occasional single biker I encounter on the road seems to come up from out of nowhere and can surprise or even startle me as I'm tooling down the highway. I can look in my rear view mirror, something I'm constantly doing and all of a sudden, a biker will appear. As long as I know he's there, I won't do anything stupid. If he gets too close to me, I will slow down to allow him to pass. I just don't like anyone on my tail.

I think anything that can be done to make bikes safer has already been done. Bikers tend to be aggressive on the road, something that is a negative factor.

"You can't engineer stupid off the highways."

too true... not within the highway paradigm. I hope the paradigm changes in the future, and something like monorails replace highways. In the meantime, we are stuck with continuous and incremental improvement.

The followíng is a dumb idea, but should cause some laughs here!!!

You are not doing it right.

You need to aim the car ALMOST at the Guy and then turn round and make like as though you are shouting at the kids, but keep a sly eye forward and just "skim" by him....if you can drive slightly erratically left and right as well.......he'll move to be safe!!!

I have never tried it personally as we do not have such rude/dumb Bikers taking the crown of the road......seemingly!!

Airbags ...... the answer is airbags. But putting them on the bike won't work so how about a suit constructed of air bags attached by a rip cord like device. If the rider is thrown the rip cord is pulled and the bags inflate. The next thing you see is the Michelin Man bouncing down the street.

Don't know if it would protect anyone but people would probably pay to see it.

http://www.rotaryeng.net/dual-air-bags.jpg

"Do any of you have ideas, mechanisms, or suggestions, other than 'training', that can make these machines safer to the rider? (and public)"

Excuse me,it's not the motorcycle that is unsafe to the rider.

The public,also,is barely at any risk from MC riders.

"Perhaps the motorcycle industry isn't aware of all the fatalities and injuries, and continue to engineer for the enthusiast?"

Chris, what could you possibly be up to with this statement?

You really want answers? Start riding a motorcycle.Otherwise be advised that you truely don't know of what you speak.

As a start go visit "BayAreaRidersForum' (BARF.com).

Be forwarned,this is a segment of society that will shock you,enrage you,intrique you and if you allow, educate you in matters motorcycle.

Skies.

Jay.

Jay,

I was being facetious... er..

again.. I really did not want to go on a rant about motorcycles.. I just wanted to have a discussion about what might be done engineering wise to improve the situation for motorcycle safety. (other than extensive training)

thanks.

Chris

But Chris why is the most effective tool [training} off the table?

why not focus on developing better methods & technology for training?

technology can be an integral part of education

because everyone else was already doing it. (training)

and this is an engineering site.. not necessarily a teachers or training site... so... I thought... "engineering + motorcycle safety"

What about a riding simulator that would give electrical negative feed back for bad decisions

Possibly even apply it to the source of the testosterone

got to put in enough hours of good decisions to qualify for Ed's special license

much of being a safe rider is about making good decisions quickly with out hesitation.

maybe a heads up display/audio device that bitches at you when you do stupid things.

A passenger with long finger nails can have the same effect, applying instant feedback

Garth -- Go back to my post #29. Training is a great idea. But first you need to motivate the riders to go through the training and later on to "toe the line" What better motivator for the young male full of testosterone than a special privilege license and the ability to display it for all to see?

Nothing new about this. The animal kingdom, with which we share most of our DNA is full of examples of show off characteristics in the males, the better for them to select the best mates. It's a hugely powerful instinct. I'm suggesting a way to direct it into a positive result.

Ed Weldon

Sorry Jay, but many motorcycles are downright dangerous by virtue of their poor design compared to the design execution of the current leading brands. Many so called "Custom Bikes" should never leave the workbench. Their builders caring little for ergonomics and even less for principles of engineering, are putting out un-roadworthy crap. The much lorded OCC tv show has been doing a great job of promoting pure junk in the many wanna be copy cats that try to emulate their artistic (seldom engineered to safety standards) creations.

As for motorcycles not posing risk to 4wheel motorists, yet again, too many accidents are CAUSED by stupid motorcycle rider exceeding the speed limits, their own abilities, the machine/tyre ability and not being considerate to other road users or taking road/weather conditions into account.

Sorry to say, but we as bike riders are not seen as saints for good reason.

Chris, thanks for a great topic....hope we have not gone off topic too much. Hope your kids read the thread as I encourage mine to. There has been some great advice in these posts, thanks guys.

The correct link for Bay Area Riders is: www.bayarearidersforum.com/

Brings back to me a vivid image of an 'incident' I saw, late-ish one evening about ten years ago.

I was travelling on the section of the Gold Coast Highway which is in fact a suburban street section, when I came across flashing red, blue and amber vehicular lights, with said vehicles loosely corralled around a crashed bike in near proximity to a stout wooden power pole. Attempting to carefully thread through this and not getting a really good look at the bits lying around, I remember thinking at the time that the hapless victim looked to be a little guy. There was a pair of legs and a 'crumpled' mess. A couple of car lengths further on was a jacket and two arms, kitted with a helmet.

What the?

Turns out that the bike and the fool had hit the pole with enough force to tear the torso in half at the waist.

What the?

Estimates of the closing speed in the vicinity of 180-200 kph. In a medium busy suburban street.

Andy beat me to it with the mention of Darwin Awards.

Chris, no amount of engineering is going to stop this sort of thing happening.

Just very glad the 'incident' didn't take out anyone else as well.

I've given up 'tut - tutting' them to stop the stupidity.

Let 'em get off the world, as soon as possible.

And I'll attempt to keep out of the way.

I like a good 'blat' from time to time. The Buell is not the best bike I've ever had, but it can be satisfying fun, especially on the run up to the Mountain, where one can become at one with the machine, swooping through the bends, and with it's enormous torque and braking.

The self preservation instinct is too strong in me to stray out of my personal limits on the roads. The gorges are too deep and the trees too unyielding, and I do want to see my grandkids grow up.

Enduro on the dunes when we were kids was good training, and no-one got hurt seriously, except when my brother busted his collarbone headbutting a dune, but only he could do that.

I like all the previous posts. Seems to me the consensus agrees with me, or I agree with it, whichever.

Don't allow over legislation nor complication of an industry which seems to me to be doing just fine in its evolution.

I still reckon the idiots couldn't get into too much trouble with the 100cc 25lb flywheel unit.

'till they get grandkids.

Cheers,

Stu.

I used to ride them as my only mode of transportation and have been through several accidents. I gave them up a long time ago. I miss them sometimes, but certainly wouldn't think about getting another one, especially here lately, I always seem to be pondering a CR4 post, a sure recipe for disaster.

Ah, just picked this up.....

http://www.gizmag.com/bmw-adaptive-headlight-tilting-k1600gt/15606/

At last someone seems to have come up with the greatest (I've yet seen) night riding solution to the darn blackout cornering problem. Really hope that it can be successfully developed.

The only time I intentionally laid my bike down was discovering a huge truck across the road halfway through a corner, slowed as much as I could and then managed to slide through underneath, not without wrecking the bike and severe bruising. Thankfully no fire. Thereafter I worked rather strictly to "not riding faster than I could see". Those BMW Lights won't be able to change the rule, but will make for smoother riding in the twisties. One of the problems I face all the time with slowing to "I can see" speeds in the corners is that 4wheel motorists don't expect the biker to slow as much as I do going into the corners and cars often get uncomfortably close to my back wheel, some even blasting their horns at me.

That will help a lot.. great one.. ga.

The motorcycle did not cause this accident! Statisticly 90% of multible vehical accidents that involve a motorcycle, the automoble driver is found to be at fault. Most are for failure to yeild the right of way. Motorcycle Awareness training on the part of automoble drivers would help. Also Motorcyle Rider training is essencial to dropping the accidents satistics. These combined programs have lowered the accident and fatality rates in states that have enacted these requirments. It has in states that require Motorcycle Rider Education in order to legally opperate a Motorcycle and Motorcycle Awareness training to the Automobile drivers are part of the questions on the drivers test and is posted though out the state on the highways. However you can not legislate stupid when it comes to operators of any motor vehical. So I beg for everyone to "Look Twice and save a life as motorcycles are everywhere." The life you save can be mine! Robert Sleepy Laurin, Retired COB of Modified Motorcycle Association of CA. and Principal Mechanical Designer.

I have road bikes all my life.The best defense is common sense. I have a sticker on the tach. It reads..."STUPID HURTS" It is a '83 R100RT, seems to be working!

Stuey et al,

Perhaps we should approach this from a different angle. Stuey triggered an idea with when talking about "self preservation instinct". What if we were robotics designers, and were tasked with building a robot motorcycle... an accident free robot motorcycle... Then we could design a motorcycle that would be safe, and would be able to operate within necessary road conditions, and perform at a reasonable rate of speed. Also, in this day and age, we would have access to gps, internet, and some pretty thorough mapping..at least here in North America, so why should there ever be such a thing as a "missed corner" in the robot scenario?

with that point of view, we can:

1) Limit the speed to 20 km/h over speed limit.
2) plan and monitor position with gps & maps. (especially all intersections)
3) apply some robot assisted braking (based on maps, esp. intersections)
4) allow speeds over limit only when 'passing' button is held down. (also requires a move into passing lane within 20 seconds or reset)
5) on board computer reset at every maintenance.... 'bitching betty' at startup when overdue.
6) alcohol test for start.
7) heart monitor built into handles/gloves. (required) If heart rate goes up, bike slows down.
8) build more race tracks and develop a safe but exciting culture like whitesands.
9) bike monitors to record excessive accelerations, wheelstands, etc..

I think police wise, the emphasis needs to be to hammer those who think public roads are their own personal speedway or circus... especially in urban areas. (ie, in excess of 50km/h over speed.)

just my 2 cents and some ideas.

chris

And this would stop a four wheeler driver from running a stop sign or red light, and broadsiding the bike, and keep the biker safe?

How? <rhetorical question>

And how will this prevent the bike from being rear ended at a stop light by an inattentive car driver, as often happens? <another rhetorical question>

IMO, a large number of motorcycle accidents are not preventable from the bike driver's perspective and a robotic two wheel cage would just be a waste, or at best, a quaint curiosity. Might's well drive a car. IE, why even bother designing this thing. The very attraction of driving a motorcycle would be gone.

A need for safety is not the reason I've been riding bikes for 40+ years. I'd just as soon stay in bed.

Respectfully (as in, I didn't see any smilies or winkies)

Hooker

Respectfully... always. I'm obviously not an expert on this stuff. I'm just having a conversation, and promoting the development of greater safety, because people are still dying.

I agree that it would not be the most fun. Safety isn't always fun.

Still.. you can go to a theme park, go on a ride that accelerates you to a 100 km/h or shoots you straight up 100 meters.and then fall back down (on rails).. and it is pretty safe..

safety is not the antithesis of fun or exhilaration... but it seeks limits and controls the variables.

Lots of these variables are opposing this or that, that someone wouldn't want to give up. I realize that the cage may not satisfy a lot of people... I'm just putting my ideas out there... and realizing that they will get shot at or down... and that is what I like about this place. I like doing the brainstorming and maybe one day, one idea will work out.

who knows.

at this point, roads are risky and dangerous for everyone. you are right. and with the statistics we are hearing, the bikes are not the causes of the most of it, but for sure if you are on a bike, and you get in an accident, you will in all likelihood, be hurt. Therefore, regardless of fault or fun, I suggest we keep on throwing every crazy idea into the ring.. and then shredding it.. to find even one good idea.

cheers

Chris

As in riding a bike...everything counts! If we all agreed, only one brain would be doing the thinking. It's more important to educate, as in the girl on her cell while your pumping gas on the other side of the isle at the mini-mart!

I might have to frame this one... it is great.

I guess this is one reason I'm not a huge fan of regulating safety.. and want to create threads like this one, to engineer safety, without removing all the fun. (hopefully) so that the freedom of expression doesn't have to mean the end of a life.

I think things like jumping out of airplanes with parachutes is safe enough, and scary enough, to provide the kind of exhilarating experience, without the statistical numbers showing how deadly it is. I think there are alternatives, is what I am saying.

I'm also suggesting, that while your points are well made, and perfectly true for a healthy psyche, that a public shared roadway is not the place to challenge the grim reaper. I suggest that a racetrack is an excellent alternative. there are many thrilling activities, that are not illegal, that don't threaten the public. (example)

As a military pilot, you should know that while the military appreciates the testosterone and adrenaline of high velocity, (sales pitch) they actually spend a lot of time teaching those pilots safety and awareness, so they can come home again. (or back to base) It is, and always will be, a tradeoff of safety and speed, to the limits of human performance.

I have no wish to limit your appreciation of life.

chris

I think there are places for the type control you've described. Though the controls should be applied to all vehicles in school zones for example; any vehicle enters a school zone and a chip is activated so controlling the motoring aspects that safety is the norm, proximity devices are active and safety is a done deal almost You could still fall at the light because forgot to put foot down

I agree there... interdiction zones...

and like in star wars.. where the Empire has Interdictor class ships, (basically police vehicles) you could have your chip listening for a designated frequency, and that way you get a warning to slow for police, accidents, construction crews, etc.

Where the speed for schoolzones here is 30 km/h.. (20 mph) perhaps the interdiction should only bring you down to 50 km/h max (30 mph). that way you can negotiate the zone with your own intelligence, if there is no school, or the construction doesn't warrant 30 km/h.. etc.

and parking lots too...

chris

Chis,

I agree, again in general. A controlled environment, like a racetrack, would be a great place to work out risk taking while limiting the possibility of bodily damage or death. Unfortunately, from what I've seen in the places I've lived, every place like that (skate parks, motocross tracks, etc) that's been set up to attract teenagers eventually has an accident and gets shut down as too dangerous. Then the kids are back out on the street doing the same things with zero supervision.

BTW, I've seen that winged suit video before. What a hoot!! But I've never really had a hankering to jump out of an airplane or off a cliff. Not enough control for my satisfaction. Down is down, eventually you're gonna meet the earth. The only real variable is how quick (or slow) are you gonna get there.

Now, get me in a sail plane and it's a whole different story. With the ability to catch thermals or ridge waves to gain altitude (and the requirement for learning the skills to do that) adds a couple of dimensions to the sport that really attracts me.

Hooker

PS - I once owned a 1972 Plymouth Fury III with a 440 Magnum (ex Virginia State Police car). I buried the 140 MPH speedo one night on an interstate with the car still accelerating. That was the last time I went over 100 MPH in a ground vehicle.

Why would any one jump out of a perfectly good airplane?

If you want automated controls take the train

while there are plenty of motorcycles here

the plague against safety are the bicycle riders, riding in packs on narrow 2 lane roads. not wanting to get flats tend to ride in the lane or even 2 abreast. completely unable to ride anywhere near the speed of even the motor homes [it's the pedal on the right grandpa]

I suppose I should advocate their removal based on their lack of speed

naw

what they are doing is just as potentially lethal as any kid on a sportbike, breaking the speed limit.

Their choice,

not my idea of fun...

ah, I do love trains... I remember this one time...... oh.. [snaps back to reality.]

I agree about following ... [anyone slower than I like to drive..] [especially when they park in fast lane]

I just.. .probably wishful thinking, but hope that bikes could be safer... mechanically... I'm trying my hardest to pull that out of all you real engineers. (I'm not one of those either)

chris.

Chris,

I know you're trying, and I commend you for it.

Unfortunately it's only guys (and gals) our age who'll rise to the discussion of the subject, whereas it really needs to be the ones who ride with the STUPID pedal hard to the floor who'll maybe carry on this momentum into the their peer group.

It really boils down to poor toilet training in the end.(give me a child 'till he is seven, etc.)

As in farming, there is always the odd seed which won't germinate.

Cheers,

Stu.

well I agree that the safety discussion needs to start pretty young. but I disagree that there is no hope. At this point, all the money is demanding open, fast bikes, with only a helmet and thick clothing (armored?) for safety.

As with everything else, the flow of money determines the product lineup. (unless by government mandate, but that also requires a pile of money/lobbying to accomplish)

cheers,

chris

Chris,

I think that the demand will continue along the currently indicated path. The kicker is that the new issue will have more and more computer capacity to controll the emissions and 'safety' of the vehicles.

The new Duke has three dedicated computers handling specific tasks, each with much more capability than that of the first Moon shot. Heck, the modern mobile phone does that too.

With telemetry etc, and GPS embedded in the computers of the upcoming vehicles, bikes, boats too, I have been predicting for some time that 'the state' will eventually controll the performance of all vehicles, obviating much of the need for mechanical add-ons to 'protect' the riders of bikes (and jetskis).

Witness some of the security systems installed in cars these days. Car stolen. Mobile phone connects to the vehicle's computer bringing it to a stop. (Murphy will have it happen in a damn stupid place too.)

Same capability for bikes. School zones, roadworks zones, disaster areas, and just plain any place 'they' want, your vehicles performance will be 'shaped' to the local requirements by road or roadside pole embedded RF transmitters. (While BB watches on his millions of cameras) Rider attempting to press the STUPID button on a bike, accelerometers embedded in the electronics will 'shape' the performance envelope so that he(she) won't be allowed to mono at 150kph, or indeed exceed the posted speed limit more than a couple of times, and only for the briefest of moments to perhaps get out of a 'tight' spot. Stopping the engine would reset the performance.

Imagine. Bikes capable of 0-110kph in 3sec flat. But won't go any faster untill the 'intelligent' computer lets you.

But only twice per ride and for limited seconds only.

We have the technology.

I might have to give it away then and take up knitting.

Cheers,

Stu

Hi Stuey,

Oddly enough was talking to you in my sleep (a dream)... and lo and behold, here you are shining brightly. There is a side of me that agrees with you wholeheartedly. When I was young, my first car was a 1970 440 magnum plymouth GTX... with lots of add-on parts. Sadly the six-pack carbs were missing... but I really loved the vacuum powered hood scoop. It still had plenty of snort left in it, and for a few years, I really enjoyed the rumbling, rubber screeching, sex on wheels. I did grow up in the time of 'easy rider' and think that the open road was freedom... I hated speed limits, smokey bears, and all that. I definitely have a heavy foot, and rant at drivers who won't get out of my way. I have ridden motorcycles, trikes, quads, minibikes, etc, and enjoyed them all.

I've been blessed to have avoided any accident resulting in injury to anyone. I've crunched one fender, had a near head-on with between snowmobiles when I was 15, had a couple of paint scratches, and run over a couple of determined animals. In 30+ years of daily driving, that is a reasonable record. all accidents. all indicators or clues that one moment of lost focus can result in catastrophic damage. I regularly exceed the speed limit, roll stop signs, over accelerate, take my eyes off the road, tailgate, flash lights, run on the rumble strips, try to communicate with slow drivers in the fast lane. I've only had half a dozen speeding tickets in my life, and one 'no insurance'. All in all, I probably wouldn't rate 'excellent' as a driver. I have taught quite a few kids to drive. in summary, I really enjoy driving. I'm blessed to be able to live in a time where big powerful vehicles rule the road and are such fun to drive.

As I said, I've been driving almost all my life, so my perspective on driving has had some time to evolve. I've mentally, while driving, thought of myself as a snow plow, trying to psychically push slow vehicles out of the way on the congested highways. I've worked in Ottawa on tight deadlines, and had to endure crushing traffic congestion, so my blood pressure was raised considerably. I've worked in Toronto, and commuted on the hwy 401 where 'traffic speed' was 140 km/h (80 mph) at times.

so I would say that the real problem with roads, is... TRAFFIC.

As the number of vehicles goes up, the number of potential collisions goes up. Without a corresponding increase in awareness, skill, improved traffic management solutions. As in Toronto, collisions are a certainty during rush hour. I would hazard to say that there are NO days that there are no collisions in that city during rush hour. It is a massive fuster-cluck. I'm grateful again for having avoided any damage there.

So If I was given the sacred duty of reducing collisions, streamlining, speeding up, and improving traffic flow, and keeping people alive, and if money was no object, and if I was starting from scratch... I would:

1. Keep all pedestrians away from traffic
2. Start with a massive public transit system to concentrate more riders into fewer vehicles.
3. Where possible, design all intersections to be 100% flow
4. Design all vehicles so that there 360 degree awareness.
5. Implement more 'intelligent' safety features into each vehicle.
6. Mandate a superior bumper and collision absorption system on every vehicle, so that collisions do not shut down traffic for hours to clean up.
7. Keep police off the roads. No tickets in live traffic. Police would not be the moderators of traffic... If they are, the system is not working.
8. Design and Implement separate transportation methods and roads for rapid emergency response.

etc, etc, etc..

my plan would be to organize traffic work like one big machine, and the goal would be zero collisions, 100% flow, minimum interference. I know, its impossible, idealistic, and unrealistic. you don't have to tell me.

so my thoughts on motorcycle safety really are just a subset of my frustration with traffic, collisions, police, etc. overall, that I've dreamed up in 30+ years of driving in that sh*t.

If we (anyone) were designing a machine, there is so much that we (you too can be big brother) would not tolerate in terms of the chaos. It simply doesn't make sense, in designing transportation systems, to allow such disfunction. At least, I can't fathom it. Perhaps I've been too narrow and idealistic in my understanding of things?

It is human to dream of better days and better ways.

Chris

The problem with mass transit is the loss of personal space, no one wants to share their space with the riff raff [everyone else], Given the opportunity few will choose the public option, given the personal transportation option.

Motorcycles pack more densely in traffic than cars or trucks, reducing congestion

100% flow bridgeless intersection. (lane changing only, like a traffic circle)
one primary axis (right-left) and one secondary axis (less traffic) top-bottom

"T" boned a car on a road very much like that in New Orleans

there are lots of roads with very wide neutral grounds, the canals were replaced with concrete culverts & buried.

lots of very exciting rear end crashes too

the lay out entices drivers to jump across the right lane to be in the left....

I agree that it needs heavy guidance. I just think that because it is a larger and better suited to instruct traffic to their direction of choice, that it would be an improvement over traffic circles (roundabout)

my girlfriend says that I will spend eternity trying to outsmart human behaviour and still never win.... probably true _{^{grumble grumble...}}

chris

the most clever & effective systems, always make it easier to do the right thing

I used to ride through an elevated roundabout

east west through traffic passed underneath

worked ok, the 8" wide metal expansion joints got my attention on the bike, early in the morning when they were covered with dew

You may not have seen this... http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u90/snopesbinary/Accidents/?action=view&current=windmill1.flv#!oZZ5QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs166.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu90%2Fsnopesbinary%2FAccidents%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DRedLight.flv%26

Yes. Very interesting. You see this one?

Maybe a spotter would have been a good idea...I'll bet that left a mark...

I just figured one does not have to look very hard to find the ID ten Tee error. After all, one swallow doth not make a summer and one inattentive rider (or snowboarder) doesn't make a big issue.

That is the future

making legacy [old] much more attractive

there will be a nice little market for work arounds, just like there is for performance mods, that don't quite meet smog regulations or haven't been approved...

how about a nice simulator that plugs inline to feed the recorder "normal" info?

At this point in the thread you must find that to try and engineer any further safety devices or ideas to the motorcycle itself is bringing it back to an automobile.

That is why, even in cars, at our current levels of operational technology integrated in our current modes of transportation, its all about the operator. Plane and simple. More money could be spent, and is to some degree, on driver safety awareness on either end. Just like any other inanimate object that can kill, it's always going to be the operator of such devices. It can't much be put any simpler.

We're trusting in an surprisingly wide spectrum of people in general, with a huge wide spectrum of psychological, social, cultural backgrounds, and intelligent levels to operate one piece of heavy, powerful, potentially deadly machinery. So where does the engineering lie? With re-engineering how we educate, communicate with a consistency in the importance of, all that is safety related to operational characteristics from the human element.

At this point in our century, yes there will always be different ways to do something with a continued means for improving on existing ideas. But the best brakes in the world don't work if they're not used or properly. Let's see who's using them, oh right, a human being. Sorry, it's all back to the operator.

SO, bring in the element of the vehicle utilized, that's a completely different variable in the human condition of driving. Most vehicles driven are pretty damn safe unless neglected, built incorrectly, etc., oh wait, more human intervention. Back to educating and making aware the issues RELATED to safety in their operations and taking care of their vehicles.

The gory videos linked to earlier, sent them to a few friends, and became a really good reminder! In today's society in just about every country, we are bombarded every minute of every day with "Stuff" that will or can keep the subconscious operations sidetracked. Yea, worrying about business and personal relations, texting, talking on the phone, eating, radios, other people in the car, reading bumper stickers (yes a friend ended up in the hospital trying to read a bumper sticker while driving) just tons of distractions that make operations and consciousness of serious harm to other humans less than conscious.

There were a lot of good ideas suggested in this thread from even a technical basis. But as Engineers, we will always want to improve on existing devices and ideas. That is what makes this site so much fun! So unless I want to drive a car, what the best designed motorcycle is today, suits me just fine. I will always continue to improve my skill level in it's operations. In fact, I can say without hesitation, it has made me a much better and safer operator of a four wheeled vehicle on so many levels!

Hi Tim,

I realize that safety vs enjoyment is a tradeoff.. but I do think that engineering and improvement will not stop today.. sorry.

but... even though I still drive 4 wheels, and my vehicle (kia sorento) has similar performance characteristics to my car of 30 years ago, I think I enjoy it more.. all the improvements are worth it in my opinion. some may argue that the differences are negligible. I would have a hard time arguing it.. it is simply a different arrangement of the pieces.

I have not had a life threatening accident in 30 years of driving, and I attribute the early and solid training I had as the reason. My brain, however, really enjoys scheming up new engineering ideas... hard to stop that. (I believe you are the same)

so... maybe a complete rollcage is a bad idea.. but perhaps a roll bar, with visibility equipment attached.. could help riders from the collisions with other vehicles, that are not their fault.

With all the videos from car manufacturers about collisions, with crashtest dummies.. why don't we see the same from bike manufacturers?

example.

Hmm, sorry if you got that impression from me. Your right it never will stop, thank god!

I recap from above:

"But as Engineers, we will always want to improve on existing devices and ideas"

also:

"At this point in our century, yes there will always be different ways to do something with a continued means for improving on existing ideas. But the best brakes in the world don't work if they're not used or properly."

The bottom line is your training regardless of the vehicle has helped in keeping you without incident for 30 years!

why don't we see the same from bike manufacturers? Can't answer that directly, but my best stab: is that we have developed a subculture with these motorcycles, as with many personal styles developed on other vehicles that we share the road with. Open doors and tops on Jeeps, changing the geometry on many types of cars for the sake of being a lowered (cut springs) ricer street racer, or worse, low riders (as in my area) with really small tires and horrible suspensions, yet still street legal. Some states have better control for those modifications than others.

But bikes, as with other vehicles, are in their own category and come with expected risks for what makes personal freedoms of discion making a desirable trait. Why there are so many different types and characteristics and styles of cars is because of those individual differences.

Some amenities of comfort for your car are more or less than others but with the basics of operations up to standard with any other make of that year, for the most part. Again, can be said about motorcycles. Building in some kind of roll bar is going back to bringing it back to a enclosed automobile. While implementing any kind of a roll bar past what is used in bikes today regarding crash bars and the such, is removing it from the basis of a motorcycle and design, in-fact, more danger to the design. The design to be utilized safely is, moving it entirely into a enclosed motorcycle. Thus no longer what we enjoy, making that personal decision to, drive a motorcycle. Sometime we can over engineer something to death to the point it isn't what it was anymore. (in this case a motorcycle.)

Chris,

Now that IS dangerous.

Unless it is made from a hitherto unknown super strong material which is imported from a planet afar, and includes the attachment points of the bike, it will be just another thing to become entangled in, in anything more than a mild bump. At that time it would be unnecessary.

Quite apart from the attitude of invincability/immortality promoted to the untrained, inexperienced rider, wearing such devices.

Too much, modern youth ride as they don't know that a mistake is gonna hurt, or worse, involve good folks who have to clean up the mess.

Cheers, Stu.

so just for context.. here is an interesting goverment (ontario) report about driver training and safety. In it is an awareness raising graphic of all the stuff affecting driver performance.

the article states that of lethal accidents;

• 85% are attributed to road user error
• 10% are attributed to imperfect roadway design or other environmental factors
• 5% are attributed to vehicle defects. Chris

Okay Chris, I'm chilled now.

This is turning out to be a decent thread afterall.

I do admit I get huffy when non-riders try to 'help me' be safe,but I can appreciate your intent in this forum.

Peace.

Jay.

Thanks Jay, I certainly don't mean for it to be all about me.. I'm not so egotistical. I just try to stimulate a certain response. I don't always communicate my intent properly. I have actually ridden a bike and enjoyed it a lot. but I've also scared myself. thanks for the note.

chris

a nexus of motorcycle safety info. (link) and the parent site itelf is extensive.

Nice topic Chris.

The last time I sat on a bike was at a pimps and prostitutes party here on the Island. First price for best dressed was a ride around the block on Tony the Ton's bike. Yep, that's me getting a thrill out of it and I did win first price for best dressed, no worries.

Just a bit of fun after all this technical stuff. Ride on, ride on.

Back then I didn't even need a wig. The guy behind me is Andrew, a brain surgeon, no really. He was my pimp on the day and I am laughing right now because it was just soooo funny. One guy (he didn't know) had a go at me and a few punches were thrown. Well, all was good in the end. You should have seen the hairs on my legs penetrating the net stockings, hilarious Mate. It was first page in the local paper and it took a while to wear off.

So much for bikes and nearly falling off, Ky.

that sounds decidedly unsafe...lol

No land speed world records were broken but others, not to be mentioned here.

smart ideas.. I like.

I've noticed that all the city busses now have flashing strobe brake lights..

works well.

Chris

I've seen Highway patrol with helmet mounted brakelights

the more lights you have on a bike the more you look like car the safer you are.

I mounted small led powered sidemarkers under the brake & clutch levers, on my last bike, I felt more visable

http://www.gearfuse.com/you-might-be-a-redneck-truck-covered-in-christmas-lights/

sorta like this?

Actually yes

probably need a trailer for the generator

Agreed, but these are modifications that come into effect when the brake is engaged. Do you think there is a way to activate the brake light, without engaging the brake, solely by downshifting?

Maybe a sensor that ties into the tachometer and speedometer? Under downshifting conditions the break light strobes, regardless of if the operator's hands are engaging the brake or not.

The problem I see is the programming. The RPM:Speed ratio is constant depending on what gear you're in, whether you're accelerating or decelerating. So you just cant pick a ratio and say if this condition exists then strobe the light. Another issue is, during the downshifting process, both curves are in a downward trend so you could just say that if the velocity is decreasing then strobe the light but then every time the bike slows the brake light would come on, even minimally, and that is not good either... you'd condition the driver behind you to ignore it.

I suppose you could program it as a deceleration rate... if the RPM and/or velocity of the bike decrease at a specified rate, and the brake is not engaged, strobe the brake light anyway.

JavaHead

you could use a simple accelerometer without the gears... and because bikes change speed so fast, the light will be blue shifted if it is moving towards you and red shifted if you are moving away...

okay just kidding... but the accelerometer coupled with a pitot tube airspeed reference could figure out whether you were speeding up or slowing down.

I like it.

Chris

KISS...keep it simple, seriously! Just set it to illuminate when decelerating off the speedo. This could be done mechanically with a two sided sliding contacting rod between the speedo and it's backplate that only completes the circuit when it is flipped in the decel direction.

Drew

Maybe a simple mercury switch, when the weight transfers, let there be brake lights