Missile Launch Off California Coast

As much as your points have value, the truth is, that there is a large mass of citizens as well as the media in both America and Canada (where we are), that do not give a "Rattus rectum" to the things around them. If they cared, at least they would vote. The numbers tell all. The other item is, that for all their bungling, leaks and screw-up's; Most military's can hide something for a period of time, than trot it out, when the gig is up, or to score points. Sometimes having your opposition, not knowing what you have, is a greater deterrence than the truth. The reverse also can work. The down side to this, is that, most governments have a tendency to assume the worse and respond as such. The A12/ SR71 (my favorite, and Kelly Johnson was beyond a genius), the F117 and the B2 were airborne long before the public was officially informed. That is if, they paid attention.

I saw the B-2 flying a decade before the time when they said it was in development, so our development is really 10 - 20 years ahead of what we know, which I am thankful for. The B-2 was flying out here in the Mojave down range of the radar test station, it was flanked by a jet, chase plane, it was a long thin line and then it banked on edge and it became huge. I was out on harper dry lake, with my 56 chevy stuck in the mud, lake not so dry....

This missle story has died, the people dont want to know, "just give us more junk food and add more channels to my TV".

There are also news reports supporting it :

http://blog.bahneman.com/content/it-was-us-airways-flight-808

This is the same guy that is using photos as proof AND blogged about his entering photoshop contests right?

just saying...

As much as this bothers me, I have to agree with you.

Can't everyone see that rhis is another one of the "tests" to check our mentality?

The first test was "The Millineum Bug", about computers, clocks, and all electronics to shut down at the stroke of 2000, that scared many into buying things that wouldn't matter if it did happen.

The second test was 911, That was a more successful mental control method that worked.

Now this, That was definitely a missile. How many planes and jets have you seen that leaves a trail like that that low in the sky? If the government have telescopes that can reach the ends of the galaxy and almost the entire universe, Duh, how come the pictures never really zoom in on this object? Were they shooting at something like an astroid that came too close, an accidental launch by the USA, or were they trying to down an invading UFO? too many fake explanations from the government that we pay to live in. This is much bigger than Obama (who should not be blamed). Has there been any follow-up stories to find out where it went? Let's stay tuned, OK?

Wired magazine said it was a head-on shot, it was the exact opposite thats why it looked like it was moving slow, because it was moving away. If a jet was comming at you the flame would not be so obvious. Missile Command was left scambling for an explanation and came up with a cover story so the public wouldnt collectively fowl the streets with efluent, NORAD WILL PROBABLY NEVER SMELL THE SAME.

Back to engineering, how deep a hole do I have to dig to avoid death if a missle strike is with in 1 mile?

Really Good Answer, California already in a hole...

Just in- "Pentagon doesn't know what it was but it wasnt a missle", yeh right, stay calm, dont think about it.

Analists in England say it was an outbound missle and by analizing the trail it was a solid rocket. I agree.

Our govt is lieing to us to keep us calm, that makes me angrier than someone launching off our coast.

AH is right war with China makes no financial sense, but maybe a threat to make us change our financial policy. I hear there was an incident 3 years ago exactly on 11-10-07 where our navy was having exercises off the coast of Taiwan and a Chinese Sub surfaces a few hundred yards off the Carriers side, very embarassing for us, but china made its point.

On the other hand N.Korea would do it cause they are irrational, they sank that S. Korean ship and no reprisal was ever done. I hear they have one of those new fuel cell subs that are undetectable with our technology.

Must add an engineering question here to stay on engineering topic, does anyone know how dirty the Asian warheads are in relation to the ones we dropped on Japan?

How long to I have to stay underground?

Either you or I are have stroke. As again I am having to agree with you. Or we actually can at least agree on one topic.

With their massive megaton yields, The theoretical former Soviets had really refined the phrase "Close counts".

Thanks stevem, for providing the link.

one thing that strikes me is the singularity of the exhaust, even as it is being laid down. Most commercial jet aircraft have a multitude of engines, and tend to leave a contrails (plural), whereas, what I see in your link appears to be a single plume contrail.

anyone see what I see?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, single exhaust plume, it may shift with the stratefied air, as wind will change direction with altitude, but a single exhaust plume.

Yes, single firery point and that was a long distance away, big flame or the whole plane is on fire.

how's the weather up there?

Spacecannon

definitely starting to get frosty... below freezing overnight.

but at least it has been sunny. that makes it alright for me.

too long without sun, I may have to come visit.

(but not if there is missiles running amok! )

cheers,

Chris

Also, let me say thank you to all veterans today! I hope things are getting better for you. You deserve good treatment and respect.

Scaled composites testing their new space ship 2 out of the Mo jive.

My suspicion is it's an amateur rocketeer.

The cost of launching a significant rocket is not trivial. You would expect that after making such an investment that one of the things you would want is publicity right from the start.

If you choose to create a public scare first, then claim credit you run some serious legal issues for such a stunt.

However, people have been known to do stupider things!

AH, there is one thing I would take issue with in this post. you assume that any weapon Iran would be able to create would be a crude weapon. that may or may not be the case. they have been in contact with North Korea and Pakistan and the three have been trading technical info and advisers for some time. Both NK and Pakistan have shown to be capable of detonating a device (I've commented before about why the supposed "fizzle" that NK had was not actually a fizzle and was in fact a full yield device. I won't repeat that here unless you really want me to.).

First off, if they have enough HEU, making a gun type bomb is easily within the capability of Iran, or you or me for that matter. it truly is a very simple device and does not require the shock-wave to be symmetrical. So the issues with the detonators and the explosive lenses go out the window. Yes it would be a relatively low yield device but it's reliability should be quite high. Leo Szilard and Enrico Fermi back in the 1940's at Los Alamos did the math and determined that if the HEU is enriched enough (over 90% U235), all you would need to do is to drop one hemispherical sub-critical mass onto the other, the closing rates don't have to exceed 1G of acceleration.

You are correct that building a plutonium implosion device is a difficult process, but NK and Pakistan have both accomplished that task, and the simple fact of the matter is that there is enough information in the open literature that they don't really need to follow the same crude engineering path we did. we've already figured out what works and what doesn't and enough people have talked about it that they don't need to go down that many blind alleys like we did. And there are other bomb making technologies we skipped over completely such as the use of neptunium. N237's critical mass is similar to that of U235. (something on the order of 60kg). and there are no international controls on the sale or possession of N237 like there are for U235 or Pu238/239/240 Just because we did it that way does not mean they will be forced to, they may well leapfrog us by utilizing our own published research.

I agree with you. The "Little Man" uranium bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima was untested. Yet they were sure it would work. It is by todays standards. A simple critical mass bomb. "Fat Man had to be tested. Implosion of the plutonium sphere is more complicated. That was a very long time ago. Since the the beginning of the "Manhattan project", information, secrets, designs, components, etc. have been leaked, stolen, bought, misplaced or as of now, it is just plain out there. The fanatics would love to detonate a nuclear device, as the death toll would be immense. Not to mention the further deaths that would follow due to radiation. This would not just be tweaking the nose of "The great Satan" , but a very serious kick in the you know what's. Even a fizzle or a dirty bomb in the heart of a major city will be a major disaster. As for the delivery method. A suitable size truck, can move it from the assembly area, to the target. Yes it will be a ground level detonation, but it still will meet their needs. They are not interested in tactical and strategic concepts. Just death. When trying to understand people, that are driven by ideology, religion, blind adherence to a leader, or a one track agenda. You can not apply logic. They will do anything to advance their cause. Some of these people come to their ideals by them selves, others have it drilled in to their heads from birth. "The end's, justify the means" is really taken to heart. History is full of this. They do not care that their actions, could result in a reprisal that would turn their country, and every thing in it into a radioactive slag heap. I really doubt that either the USA or any other European country would do this. Fallout knows no borders. Unfortunately, there are enough nations out there with nukes, that may leap before the look. No nation is immune from attacks by fanatics.

More on EMP here:

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2005&month=06

Quote: "Now, Iran may get a nuclear bomb, but it is going to be very unsophisticated. While you make an argument that a nuclear explosion is a nuclear explosion, detonating a bomb is so much harder than you can imagine. Even detonating the bomb can lead to what is called a fizzle, where only a tiny percentage of the potential yield is realized. I had a close friend that worked at a nuclear research facility building detonators. The technology to do this is very, very difficult. Iran's ability to build a detonator that is both reliable and efficient is very low. It is one thing to refine material for a bomb; a task that requires consolidated efforts of a country to do. It is another thing to build a detonation system for the bomb. Lastly, the delivery system is another matter altogether. Again, it is not a simple matter to load a nuclear weapon into a missile and have it work."

I'm not concerned that Iran or any other rogue nation can develop a bomb and a delivery system. They don't have the capability to do so. I worry that someone in this country or Russia or China will sell them the technology. They have many sophisticated weapons, like missiles, AK74's and M16's. They didn't have to develop them. They were bought from Russia and the U.S. They can get nuclear bombs the same way if they have enough money. I really don't believe any country would be stupid enough to use a nuclear bomb. That would result in their total destruction by the good guys.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11/10/security-council-gets-north-korea-nuke-report/

In my mind the most likely candidate is the jet contrail possibility that stevem cited. Another possibility that nobody has mentioned is a small meteor as it disintegrates in the atmosphere. I find it highly unlikely that it was an actual underwater missile launch by another country. A lone news helicopter capturing the after affects of a foreign submarine launch near the US seems even more unlikely than either of these two optical illusion scenarios. But I have to admit that there is a very warm part of my psyche that wants to believe that some amateur rocketeers really pushed the envelope.

Well a reliable independent military source indicates NORAD doesn't seem to know what it was (don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing) so that discounts #5.

http://defensetech.org/2010/11/09/what-the-mystery-rocket-launch-off-california-coast/#comments

I am leaning towards a less sinister explanation. Time will tell.

I'm in the Mojave desert of SoCal, and this was not Amateur rocket given how much easier it would be to launch from the multitude of open spaces out here. The DOD said it posed no harm cause... it was aimed away from us, it was a warning shot. The military doesnt seem upset cause thats the professional face they want to present, after the panic of the cuban missle crisis they havent told us anything anymore.

So who else would have done it? A foreign country!

Sea Launch is easier than you think if it is not done under the surface.

New fuel cell submarines are so quiet we can not detect them, this is the word from the military guys.

Occhams Razor, (no I dont know how to spellit), It was a missle anyone else saying something else is a cover story. So if it was a missle, not by us, then...

I rest my case, now all you engineers out there the question is how long to impact from a coast launch?

Spacecannon

Stevem, thx for the link, the article may say jet contrails but the video attached is obviously a missle, even the Ambassasor in the video says rocket from a sub., the thing is we dont need to prove our capability to do this and when we do we advertise it so the world knows our capability, the ambassador also mentions a show of force given Obama trip to Asia, so who needs to proove to us that they can do it?

In case anyone has been following, the Chinese have said that they would have a serious dissciussion with Obama at the G-20, because of our inflationary policies will devalue all the debt they hold of ours. Its like saying loan me 100 dollars and by the way Im only going to pay back 25. Countries have gone to war for less. The tell will be if our financial policy changes in the next 6 months after this mtg.

So back to engineering, does anyone know the capabilities of N. Korean rockets? Chinese rockets? That missle was the size of an atlas, I have seen the launches from Vandanburg.

This is all a bunch of loosecannon speculation, so far.

Tornado,

given your location and latin saying I would suggest you are exmil. or active and you are suggesting I keep my mouth shut? I like the truth, and I like to know what is really going on. They would be better off telling us the truth, it would be a slap in the face to so many that have become lax in the realities of the world. We in the US need to stop picking the flowers and start planting potatos and raising goats.

Engineering question here. How many milk producing goats and egg laying chickens does it take to feed 4 engineers in a hole (bunker) for 2 months?

Boy, you do have a hyperactive imagination; I've never been in the military. Nor have I as yet suggested that you keep your mouth shut, though it might be a good idea. Since when does random and incoherent speculation lead anyone closer to the truth?

However, you are right about wanting the truth.

Its not random incoherent speculation when points of fact are analized. When people of Authority feed the public lies to manipulate or controll them, then we are left on our own to find the truth. I made my acusation of you because of the number of strawmen comming out of the wood work trying to explain this event away as commercial jets, weather balloons or swap gas. This is way too obvious.

Calm down.

You are taking way too many tangential speculations here over way too little real information. The actual points of fact that I have is that there is one series of two dimensional video images from one news helicopter. These images have been repeated by several news sources and a speculative water launch site has been extrapolated. What I find very suspicious is that none of the reports I've seen indicate the location of the helicopter taking this image. If this had been a missile launched from waters thirty five miles off of the coast, I would have expected hundreds of images posted on the net from Oxnard to Huntington Beach showing exactly this trail. If these images existed then some very precise triangulation could be done to show the three dimensional trajectory taken by whatever this was. Instead I've found only the image that has sparked the controversy and no more than one or two other images that might correlate. None of the images explain where they were taken from that which I have seen. This makes it more plausible to me that the controversial image contains an optical illusion of something other than a missile contrail. What that actually is, I do not know. But I would expect a true missile launch at sunset from waters west of California to have many tourist images of sunset showing a launch contrail. Where are these images?

Redfred

Check the weather for So Cal, we were socked in, no one from the ground saw it. No one I have heard of...

Spacecannon

Then where did that picture come from?

This is what I meant by incoherent stories.

Are you talking about the picture from the helicopter? Are you really just a bunch of hot twisting air, Tornado?

Well said spacecannon. And I for one would like to know the answer to your

question as this could be a very real need to know someday.

Hey dude guess what.... you are the most afraid species on earth.

From what I've been able to glean, it seems to be just a testing exercise from the military missile base on San Nicolas Island, just off the west coast of La-la land.

Probably to support the launch capabilities of the X37B's coming into the arsenal. so spacecannon, don't worry too much, it's one of ours.

We'll know for sure in a couple of months from now, after someone writes an article about it. - Loupy.

Worry so much? Ive got to ask justifiable questions to stay on engineering topic, didnt you see the humor?

Im really angry we are being lied to by our govt. cause they are affraid of our reaction.

It wasnt from San Nic, thats just the next layer of cover story. It was mules away from any land.

Good Answer as well as a comprehensive explaination and logical extention to my original thoughts.- Loupy.

Rorschach, GA

That is a good answer and those tests do take place, but not off our coast like this, if they were going to deneign any knowledge of it then why not just do it at their normal missle testing range out in the pacific? Because it wasnt ours!

And the wild thing is all those things you said are true, just not common knowledge.

the location may have been in part dictated by the orbital mechanics of the x-37.

Ironically, the idea of metamaterials being used to bend EM waves comes from Russia.... Their scientists were and are first rate, their manufacturing however.... eh, not so much.

On further reflection it is also possible that the location was chosen in order to also test a land based sensor platform and/or interceptor at the same time. Further, a rear approach intercept is the most difficult for a missile to accomplish because it takes so long to catch up. it is possible that a simulated intercept was run from a land based installation using a computer model of the interceptor missile as well. This test may actually have been a multi-level test of multiple systems at the same time.

Jet contrail? Utter nonsense. Wrong everything - altitude, angle, plume thickness, presence of flame... Somebody had to be pretty desperate to think that one up.

Whatever it was, it was propelled by a solid-fueled booster, and it was guided - there is a kink in the exhaust plume showing a course correction shortly after ignition.

Which doesn't answer the key questions: what? whose? what for? where to?

My first guess was a submerged launch from a US sub with impact at one of the mid-Pacific missile test ranges, but there's no reason for the Pentagon not to acknowledge such a test. American SLBMs are solid fueled; I don't know about the French and British versions, but it seems likely. The early Russian SLBMs were liquid fueled and caused a lot of accidents, but they may have since developed solid fueled missiles. Obviously it was not an attack, or we would have heard of the result by now.

If it was an Airbus, that would also explain the fire...=b

Yep an airplane contrail is the most likely explanation.

We saw this earlier and we will see it again.

What I find truly appalling is none of the media fear mongers could do the simple research that you, brian220x, did to identify this likely source. As your link shows this was not the first missile like contrail was created by a camera looking at a normal air-flight. The first time the media fell to this folly was funny. Now I hope somebody sues them or arrests somebody for inciting a riot. Shouting FIRE in a crowded theater is not free speech, its a malicious crime.

It wasn't a missile at all, it was the contrail from UPS Flight 902 (UPS902) or America West Flight 808 (AWE808)."

MT#1: What better way for a foreign country, or company, to test a stealthy missile than to launch it close enough to the USA to be sure it will be seen, and also watch the response of the US defense organization?

MT#2: Amateur Rocketry is regulated with the US, and there are severe penalties for violating rules of size, altitude, launch location, etc. So someone wants to launch a really big Estes, but doesn't want to go through the red tape or risk jail time. Take the thing out to international waters to launch.

MT#3: Our government wanted to test a stealthy missile, but doesn't want to admit it to the international community, so they say "I dunno".

MT#4: A country not so friendly to the US was sending us a message that they can launch close in without warning. Our government would not admit this publicly.

Conspiracy theorists have fodder for the next 50 years. Maybe Jesse TB Ventura will be able to reveal the truth.

My post was deleted because it was concidered to political. Well, now the military experts are saying it was a Chinese missle fired across Americas bow to give us a message. They are telling us that since they are carrying much of our debt, and Bernacke wants to inject 600 billion into the economy, which will only devalue the dollar even more, we had better think about it. They just let us know, we can get to you anytime, even in your own back yard. When the question about the missle came up in a earlier discussion, I thought it was a political question. You were asking questions about what it was, and where it came from. I don`t wish to upset anyone, but come on, we all are adults here. How can you be off topic discussing who it belongs too and where it came from and why. Maybe I misread the question? Maybe I was too eager to get the truth out. I have been expecting a missle shot, but I figured it would be a EMP shot, off the East coast. My apologys if I upset anyone, but it is time to get our heads out of the sand. We are living in very dangerous times. This is why I have spent several dollars going to battery back up, and off the grid living. I suggest many of you do the same thing. Have a great day.

What a pile of nonsense! ROFLMAO.

We have known for years that China has ICBM capability, so they don't need to "give us a message." Misspelling missile, Bernanke, and apologies doesn't help your credibility any, either. You "figured" there would be an East coast EMP shot? More like dreamed.

Well golly jeez Mr.Tornado, I never claimed to be a spelling whiz. Your jumping on my spelling like that makes my message null and void. Sorry to disappoint you, but I usually spell pretty good,. Granted in my old age my eyes are not what they used to be, but when it comes to common sense I`m light years ahead of you. You just proved that with your response to my spelling. That was a really juvenile response, and really is a good indicator of your IQ, which seems to be lacking.As for Bernanke , my correct spelling indicator says its wrong spelled this way. But that doesn`t matter. What does matter is that Bernanke is in the news, dumping 600 billion into the economy which will deflate the dollar more than it already is. Several people in Congress are telling the Fed to not do this, but they are not listening. China is telling the Fed not to do this either. Have you picked up a paper lately?? If you have, did you read anything besides the funny papers.Now, in World Net Daily news, two military experts have come forward and said it was a Chinese missile. I did not say this, they did. They also said we just got a warning shot across our bow. As for the EMP missile shot, thats all that was in the news last month. Everyday for weeks, the evening news was talking about how easy it was for Iran, China, or North Korea to fire a missile from 12 miles out in international waters. This missile would detonate over Kansas at a altitude of 200 miles up, and take out our grid, and the military. Have you been living in a cave or something.We are being conditioned to except these reports, to prepare us for what is coming down the pike.As for my credibility . I have more integrity in my little finger than you have in your entire body. I`m a 100% disabled veteran that served with distinction in the United States Navy during Vietnam. I am also well know in the radio community, and hold various certificates. I am well respected in my community, and when the crap hits the fan, I am one of the first to volunteer my time and radio equipment for my fellow man. I have spent many hours dispatching police and fire departments and various rescue crews on my ham radios when their main tower was taken out by a tornado.I spent endless hours at this console passing messages to families all over this country when hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, letting them know how their loved ones were doing.When the SSCayenne was going down in the Gulf of Mexico with all hands, I picked up their SOS call and notified the Coast Guard. I was over 1200 miles from them, and the Coast Guard was socked in due to weather. I gave them the Cayennes known heading, latitude and longitude, and all were rescued. They could not reach the Coast Guard as their signal was bouncing over from the fog, coming down here in the Ozarks. Sonny, if I tell you something, you can damn well take it to the bank. Many things are about to take place in this country, I suggest you open your mind, and start paying more attention. Remember, nothing is impossible, and when you least expect it, its going to get you.I`m well prepared, are you. I sure hope you have a good day Mr.Tornado, I know I will.

I'd say the lack of paragraphs is much more troubling than the spelling.

I have not yet seen anything resembling proof that this was anything other than a con trail

To build an entire argument on such a shaky premise calls the rest of your post into question.

when I look at your history on cr4, this doesn't increase your credibility.

Citing a source a questionable as http://www.wnd.com/ another strike.

You claim to have integrity, but you you certainly don't have anywhere near the credibility of Tornado on this site [your alleged reputation in the ham community does not proceed you]

Well Garthh, I was going to let you slide, but I just couldn`t let it go. You see young fella, I`m not mad, but I am disappointed.The fact that you have no proof it was anything but a con trail disturbs me. But, then again since your living on the left coast, that pretty much explains it. Nothing but liberal retards, and your so called progressives that have taken that beautiful state straight down the tubes. I have never seen a bullet flying through the air either, but I have enough sense to get the hell out of the way. When I smell gas, I have enough sense not to light a match to see where its leaking from. From the video that I saw, which I`m sure was the one you saw, even with my bad eye sight, I can see it was a missile. I have only made 18 post, and I don`t come here very often. I only comment once in a while.That was a nasty crack you made about my history on cr4. I think Mr. Tonado has like 4,352 post, and I`m not sure, but I think somewhere around 164 good answers. That means every 26 1/2 post he gets one right. You on the other hand have 6,637, with 89 good answers, so that means every 74 1/2 post you get one right. Well, like I said, I only have about 20 post counting these, but now I think I have something like 3 good answers. So that means this old man has a right answer every 6 1/2 times. WELL, I guess at this rate, I need to post more, and show you boys how a old man does it.Another way I know your a liberal is the way you said www.wnd.com news service is unreliable. Every liberal says that. Every progressive and marxist says that also. About my reputation in the ham community, it is well and good. I have QSO cards from all over the world from people I talk too, and those listening on short wave. I have been talking on the radio since 1958, and I`m sure thats before you were born. Hell, I was probably in the Navy before you were born.If there was anything wrong in the ham community believe me the liberal run FCC would let me know right away. Oh, by the way. The reason I don`t have paragraphs is because I type until it fills the box, then it automatically starts another line below. Remember, I`m a old man who is not computer literate. I probably only know enough about computers to get me into trouble. But, like most things I do, I concidered very carefully when I bought it. Thats why I bought a Mack. you boys have a good day, and don`t get discouraged, someday you will grow up, and you might live as long as me, but I doubt you will be as smart as me. Exsperience Mr. Garthh, exsperience.

~ Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I-I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.~ General Jack D. Ripper, Space Squad Justice League

Dr. Strangelove is one of my favorites.

I was composing a factual & witty reply

During some fact checking I saw Mr. Bumbles post.

As usual he has said it all in his usual style

For paragraphs use the enter key if you are on firefox or internet explorer

Garthh is very well-respected here at CR4. You, on the other hand, are not.

I wonder if you could earn some respect.

You have no history to speak of, and a huge misconception re "good answers." Often, GAs are awarded simply because the answer is passionate or resonates with a particular person in some way -- occasionally it is "good " because it is both right and well written, or unusually complete. Sometimes GAs are awarded for humorous posts. A post that is simply "upbeat" can get GA votes. A post voted GA does not mean it is "right."

So... your premise here, that you are somehow "better" or "smarter" because one of your answers was voted "good" is utter garbage. If I had a question that required some real thought to answer, I would go to Garthh, to Tornado, to AH, or others because each has provided hundreds or thousands of very good answers that show some real insight.

Your own conspiracy theory drivel will garner the occasional "good answer" vote from a like-minded person. Don't let that go to your head. (Sadly, I see you already have). You will find that HHO promoters and perpetual motion machine promoters have garnered GAs (from people unacquainted with basic science) for nonsensical posts.

Here, you earn respect, and you do that by making meaningful contributions, not simply by being old and incapable of using a spell checker, unable or too careless to form paragraphs or punctuate correctly, or by believing that your computer is made by a truck manufacturer. The way in which your ideas are presented counts here, just as it does in other aspects of life. If you can't communicate logically, you won't garner much respect here, any more than you would garner respect in a courtroom if you address the judge "Hey look buddy..."

Many psychopaths and sociopaths have loads of experience. The simple accumulation of experience is of no value. It is your ability to learn from that experience and make a contribution that is valuable. If, at some point, you can show us that you've learned something, you might garner some respect. Just being old doesn't do much around here -- many of us are old farts.

I haven't read all your posts, and have no interest in doing so because they are too hard to read. But others may find something of value, and perhaps there is something hiding inside you that could, in the future, make a positive contribution to CR4. So let me give you this advice: if you do not want to get booted off this site, then do not write long insulting posts. (Read the FAQs.) When you include idiotic claims of your being much smarter than some other member (particularly a member like Garthh, who is well-known to be quite bright) it can end up positively reeking with irony.

Your last sentence has me nearly rolling on the floor.

I hope this helps you get better oriented to CR4, and also hope that at some point you will make a positive contribution.

A "truck manufacturer" ROFLMAO, ^{_{oops, pms - must be age}}.

On the topic of missile launches, here is some fascinating footage. Some thought it was a comet but it is the launch of the Soyuz rocket which contained Progress-M. The white trail is unused rocket propellant and vapour which is being illuminated by the setting/rising sun.
At the 30 seconds mark is the transfer from first to second stage firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OL3eLJEr_A

Now there's a significant difference there in the contrails produced. I would be nice to get some more information as to where the image was taken and where the launch happened. But at least half of that information would have to come from some lying government official, so never mind.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much, and even more laughably than before.

Thank you KY for your support. Funny you should mention Machinist. I was a railroad machinist for 8 years. After that I opened my own welding shop and diesel repair service. Yes, I can tell alot about a engine when it is running. That tell tale ping, or the unnatural singing tells me a lot. The same way when running a laythe. Yes, I do stand up for my thoughts and positions. I think anyone who doesn`t is only cheating his/her self. But , like most things it took a lot of years of experience to gain that ability. You sound like a man of experience yourself. You most certainly have a way with the english language. I too can tell when I`m talking to a educated man myself. I really believe that a missile was fired off the coast of California , and several people refuse to see it or believe it. One thing that is readily apparent in this country, you can not believe anything this current goverment says. I really admire your Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. I like what he told the Muslims in your country. He is a hero over here in this country, but I doubt very many people in California have heard of him.I really think the Chinese are giving this administration a warning. As those two military experts said, a shot across Americas bow.I find it really disturbing that they got this close to our shores to pull this off. Sounds like someone was sleeping at the switch.You can bet some heads will roll, and people will be dismissed, even tho we may never witness it. One thing I have learned is suspect everything, and everyone. Then work out the details, and most of all, always follow the money. We owe a ton of it to the Chinese. But we all know I`m just a old man ramblin, so what do I know. Have a good day Sir.

Thank you KY, point well taken. Thanks for the heads up. Even old men like me can still learn.

I was 13 when JFK was killed. I cried.

They never established who killed who on who's orders. Ever, just the old merry go round of power politics. I'm outa here, Ky.

I was only eight on that sad day. I went numb when in the middle of my presentation to the class when the public address system interrupted me. The school Principal tried to explain what had happened to the whole school. I guess he thought it would be better to warn the students why mommy would be crying when we got home. She was. Like millions of other Americans I witnessed Jack Ruby killing Lee Harvey Oswald on live television.

It would be much more satisfying to think that entire series of madness forty seven years ago tomorrow was all one big carefully and brilliantly covered up conspiracy. But as much as I want to believe that there are a group of conspirators that had my president and his assassin killed, it is much more likely that one crazed American mad at the government for always lying, killed the president. Then another crazed American convinced that the incompetent government would not punish the assassin, killed him. Just look at what has happened here over airplane contrails.

It's amazing how conspiracy stories tend to aggregate together.

"Some times a cigar, is just a cigar" Freud

Nicely put GA

A poignant statement. I never herd of Rudd, and from what you have stated I rather not.