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Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 3:21 PM

Greetings All,

I have a little speculation on the recent launch of an unknown missle off the Calif. coast and would like some engineering opinions...

1) I dont think the missle launch was of the US govt doing, they have always addmitted their Vandenburg launches before, and the launch was at sea.

2) A US company would have admitted it and wanted the publicity.

3) A foriegn country would do it to show us they could get in close and we could not stop them...

4) A few years back N Korea launched a bunch of missles, one after the other and they kept blowing up after launch, everbody thought they were incompetent. Who would fire one after another, they would stop, figure out what was wrong, fix it, and then try again, they would only fire one after another if they were trying to break through a barrier.

5) The Govt has been working on flying laser tech for 20 years, they say they havent perfected it but last I heard they were now trying to put it on a Humvee, sounds like they have a working system to me, given the N. Korean missle destruction mentioned above.

6) It is better for a foreign not to admit and keep us guessing. So do ya all think it was N. Korea saying "yes we can" or China saying "stop devaluing the dollar before the G-20 meeting?

And now for the engineering question, given presuptions about their missle capabilities how far inland would it reach and how long would it take to get there, or how long to reach LA?

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#1

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 3:29 PM
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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 4:07 PM

There are valid arguments against that.

The latest intel I received believes it was a missile. Even the open source video on the net clearly shows what looks like a flame from the contrail's source. This tends to discredit the idea that it was an aircraft or a weather anomaly.

Also, given the distance cited of 35 miles, the track and speed and plume (which looks like a solid propellent) seems consistent with a rocket. I live about the same distance from the Kennedy Space Center and routinely watch every launch I can. Again, actual launches of unmanned rockets are pretty consistent with what I observed in the videos.

The US has constellations of satellites specifically designed to detect the heat signatures from missiles and rockets around the world. Unfortunately, no data has been publicly shared from the Defense Department on the incident. The US could easily make that data available, but has chosen to not do that, which invites all the conspiracy theories and fear that now surrounds us.

The satellites used can easily determine if there was a launch, where it came from, who launched it, and where it was going. I doubt that this one simply slipped through, so there is some concern as to why there is nothing from the Defense Department and we are only left to speculate.

Missiles are routinely launched from this area on a regular basis. Everything we know so far points to some kind of missile, but why deny something that seems so obvious?

NORAD and USNORTHCOM stated that the event did not pose a threat to the US, but has said nothing more, so it remains a mystery as to what actually happened.

I am not comfortable with the explanation that it is simply an aircraft, but we can't totally rule that out. Only that it seems less probable.

Part of the problem is that the often recited fear of an enemy launching something off-shore at a US city. Theoretically, you could employ a cargo ship to do this and equip the missile with a nuclear warhead, EMP device, or biological weapon. The reality is probably much more difficult to do this than what pundits claim. However, the perception is such that one could easily run with this fear in light of the events seen. The Defense Department seems to have a ho-hum attitude, which does not indicate that they are on a heightened sense of alert. However, I think the Defense Department could do more to settle this debate and it would not take much effort.

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#26
In reply to #4

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:47 AM

"The Defense Department seems to have a ho-hum attitude"

How many billion dollars a year does the US military get paid? Are curious and concerned americans really going to be satisfied with a ho-hum answer? If a gunshot goes off outside your door, aren't you going to want to know whose gun, and who pulled the trigger? I suggest that the answer makes a big difference to one's sense of security. This event is getting less attention than the 'laser printer' bomb.. but a missile is potentially much more destructive. I would think it advisable for the military to say "yes, its ours.. don't fear.. we are just running a test". Unless generalized fear and panic is what the intent was...

If it was a plane, then there will be evidence of it being an airplane in controlled airspace, right down to the passenger list, and maintenance records.. seriously. Isn't that what air traffic controllers get paid for to sit at radar stations all day, and know wtf is flying in their airspace? (especially military atc)

If I was American (public), I wouldn't be satisfied right now with maybe, perhaps, believe, etc. I would expect that those who are put in office, and paid to protect the nation would have highly specific and definitive statements and evidence as to what it was.

As military defense command personnel must think, it is an enemy missile until proven otherwise! The relative size, rate of speed, trajectory, and probable type of fuel, should be able to be determined just from video, using math and spectroscopy. (to say nothing of radar, etc.)

Chris

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#69
In reply to #26

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:37 PM

As much as your points have value, the truth is, that there is a large mass of citizens as well as the media in both America and Canada (where we are), that do not give a "Rattus rectum" to the things around them. If they cared, at least they would vote. The numbers tell all. The other item is, that for all their bungling, leaks and screw-up's; Most military's can hide something for a period of time, than trot it out, when the gig is up, or to score points. Sometimes having your opposition, not knowing what you have, is a greater deterrence than the truth. The reverse also can work. The down side to this, is that, most governments have a tendency to assume the worse and respond as such. The A12/ SR71 (my favorite, and Kelly Johnson was beyond a genius), the F117 and the B2 were airborne long before the public was officially informed. That is if, they paid attention.

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#73
In reply to #69

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/12/2010 12:40 AM

I saw the B-2 flying a decade before the time when they said it was in development, so our development is really 10 - 20 years ahead of what we know, which I am thankful for. The B-2 was flying out here in the Mojave down range of the radar test station, it was flanked by a jet, chase plane, it was a long thin line and then it banked on edge and it became huge. I was out on harper dry lake, with my 56 chevy stuck in the mud, lake not so dry....

This missle story has died, the people dont want to know, "just give us more junk food and add more channels to my TV".

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#63
In reply to #4

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 5:22 PM

There are also news reports supporting it :

http://blog.bahneman.com/content/it-was-us-airways-flight-808

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 5:50 PM

This is the same guy that is using photos as proof AND blogged about his entering photoshop contests right?

just saying...

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#67
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:35 PM

As much as this bothers me, I have to agree with you.

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#68
In reply to #4

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:54 PM

Can't everyone see that rhis is another one of the "tests" to check our mentality?

The first test was "The Millineum Bug", about computers, clocks, and all electronics to shut down at the stroke of 2000, that scared many into buying things that wouldn't matter if it did happen.

The second test was 911, That was a more successful mental control method that worked.

Now this, That was definitely a missile. How many planes and jets have you seen that leaves a trail like that that low in the sky? If the government have telescopes that can reach the ends of the galaxy and almost the entire universe, Duh, how come the pictures never really zoom in on this object? Were they shooting at something like an astroid that came too close, an accidental launch by the USA, or were they trying to down an invading UFO? too many fake explanations from the government that we pay to live in. This is much bigger than Obama (who should not be blamed). Has there been any follow-up stories to find out where it went? Let's stay tuned, OK?

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#10
In reply to #1

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 5:29 PM

Wired magazine said it was a head-on shot, it was the exact opposite thats why it looked like it was moving slow, because it was moving away. If a jet was comming at you the flame would not be so obvious. Missile Command was left scambling for an explanation and came up with a cover story so the public wouldnt collectively fowl the streets with efluent, NORAD WILL PROBABLY NEVER SMELL THE SAME.

Back to engineering, how deep a hole do I have to dig to avoid death if a missle strike is with in 1 mile?

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#11
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 5:48 PM

"Back to engineering, how deep a hole do I have to dig to avoid death if a missle strike is with in 1 mile?"

Depends on the warhead and if it actually detonates.

Odds of China, North Korea, or Iran doing something like this as a first strike is pretty low. First, the ability to deny it would be almost impossible. Second, any remote chance that the country of origin was discovered is going to result in a catastrophic loss for that country. Even China does not want to mess with us on that front. China has about the same number of nuclear warheads as Israel (about 200), compared to thousands that we have. That would really be picking the nose of fate.

You are right about the currency devaluation and China stands to be the number one loser in the world. However, that is more likely to start a trade war than a nuclear war and it would be pretty naive for China to think that a simple missile launch would reverse our course on our economy.

As for flight time at a close distance to shore, that depends on the trajectory and distance to target. It could range from 3 to 5 minutes to as much as 15 to 20 minutes for a close to medium range missile - again, depending on total range and trajectory.

Should you be digging yourself a hole? I would not. Anyway, it looks like California is already digging a hole for itself, so why not let that debt ridden state do the heavy lifting for you?

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 6:40 PM

Really Good Answer, California already in a hole...

Just in- "Pentagon doesn't know what it was but it wasnt a missle", yeh right, stay calm, dont think about it.

Analists in England say it was an outbound missle and by analizing the trail it was a solid rocket. I agree.

Our govt is lieing to us to keep us calm, that makes me angrier than someone launching off our coast.

AH is right war with China makes no financial sense, but maybe a threat to make us change our financial policy. I hear there was an incident 3 years ago exactly on 11-10-07 where our navy was having exercises off the coast of Taiwan and a Chinese Sub surfaces a few hundred yards off the Carriers side, very embarassing for us, but china made its point.

On the other hand N.Korea would do it cause they are irrational, they sank that S. Korean ship and no reprisal was ever done. I hear they have one of those new fuel cell subs that are undetectable with our technology.

Must add an engineering question here to stay on engineering topic, does anyone know how dirty the Asian warheads are in relation to the ones we dropped on Japan?

How long to I have to stay underground?

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#70
In reply to #11

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:46 PM

Either you or I are have stroke. As again I am having to agree with you. Or we actually can at least agree on one topic.

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#43
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 11:09 AM

Spacecannon, dig deep enough to cover your butt,and then add another 12" to play it safe.....but to play it extra safe bend over real far and kiss you fanny bye byes before the friggin thing torches-off! LOL

Actually, the outcome...yours that is, will be wholly dependent on the explosive yield of the thermonuclear device and the altitude above the ground when it explodes. Even for the smallest of yields (like a briefcase tactical nuke) and the 1 mile distance from Ground Zero your chances aren't very good....depending how far underground you are if the initial blast and radiation doesn't get you, then most likely you'd be a crispy critter from the resulting firestorm (that consumes your oxygen) or fallout.

For some very interesting reading that'll give you an eyeful (and much to think about), I suggest that you read:

"Nuclear War Survival Skills", by Eugene P. Wigner, Physicist and Nobel Laureate/

http://www.oism.org/nwss

Enjoy the read...

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#71
In reply to #43

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:55 PM

With their massive megaton yields, The theoretical former Soviets had really refined the phrase "Close counts".

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#74
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/12/2010 12:51 AM

Thanks stevem, for providing the link.

one thing that strikes me is the singularity of the exhaust, even as it is being laid down. Most commercial jet aircraft have a multitude of engines, and tend to leave a contrails (plural), whereas, what I see in your link appears to be a single plume contrail.

anyone see what I see?

Chris

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#76
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/12/2010 1:10 AM

Hi Chris,

Yes, single exhaust plume, it may shift with the stratefied air, as wind will change direction with altitude, but a single exhaust plume.

Yes, single firery point and that was a long distance away, big flame or the whole plane is on fire.

how's the weather up there?

Spacecannon

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#78
In reply to #76

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/12/2010 1:27 AM

definitely starting to get frosty... below freezing overnight.

but at least it has been sunny. that makes it alright for me.

too long without sun, I may have to come visit.

(but not if there is missiles running amok! )

cheers,

Chris

Also, let me say thank you to all veterans today! I hope things are getting better for you. You deserve good treatment and respect.

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#2

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 3:41 PM

Scaled composites testing their new space ship 2 out of the Mo jive.

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#3

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 3:43 PM

My suspicion is it's an amateur rocketeer.

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#6
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 4:10 PM

The cost of launching a significant rocket is not trivial. You would expect that after making such an investment that one of the things you would want is publicity right from the start.

If you choose to create a public scare first, then claim credit you run some serious legal issues for such a stunt.

However, people have been known to do stupider things!

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#29
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 7:27 AM

You wrote: The cost of launching a significant rocket is not trivial.

For you or me, maybe. You DO know I believe that a SCUD missile can be easily bought for less than 100 Grands. A portable launcher for even less. The jet theory? Look carefully at the contrail, A single Engine jet with an afterburner? And a Tactical jet nobody knows about? Please. This "Mystery" missile only flew 50 nautical miles approx, before disappearing. Could it be a warning such as:

"Look all you infiels...We don't need big expensive armies or thousands of nukes to destroy you. All we need is one small bomb, and a 100 thousand Dollars short range missile system".

According to the pentagon's last report on Iran's nuclear intentions, Iran is one or max, two years away from having nuclear capabilities. What will happened if a missile is launched straight up over mid-point USA Say over KS, and detonated at 250-300 miles of altitude. You can learn about it at: http://www.futurescience.com/X5DNA/X5DNA.html#EMP

You want more (very good) reading, read "One second after" by William Forestchen, especially pay close attntion the foreword by Newt Gingrich.

Want more chilling info: http://empcommission.org/

Let me ask you this: Would you as a government announce that a radical Islamic regime is capable of destroying any power they choose and that WE have allowed it to happened? Lot's of Bull? I hope you can prove me wrong and tell me what this Missile,Rocket Jet aircraft was?

Wangito.

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#32
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 8:46 AM

You wrote, "I hope you can prove me wrong and tell me what this Missile,Rocket Jet aircraft was?"

Well, I can't and I don't know anyone that can, so we are just left to speculate.

However, let's address some of the scenarios you mentioned and I think I can shed some light on some of the issues.

First, yes, it is very possible to launch a missile from the deck of a ship. It is pretty hard to hide something like that and the US has some very sophisticated space-borne hardware to detect such a scenario both before and during a launch.

There are two types of entities that could pull off such a launch. The first is a nation like Iran, North Korea, China, etc. The second is a rouge actor like Al Qaeda. The first type would be a pretty provocative move and would likely result in some very harsh reaction, particularly if the payload was nuclear.

One of the rapidly expanding fields of science today is nuclear forensics. We now have a very sophisticated and effective set of tools to determine the country of origin of any nuclear detonation; regardless of where it is detonated. The chance of any country getting away with this is pretty much nil. This leads to the real purpose of nuclear weapons; deterrence. This means that owning nuclear weapons acts as a defensive shield. I have always stated that the most powerful attribute of a nuclear weapon is not detonating it. Once detonated the deterrence factor is lost and a whole new set of problems arise. This mindset has kept the world very safe from nuclear war for more than 50 years.

Now, Iran may get a nuclear bomb, but it is going to be very unsophisticated. While you make an argument that a nuclear explosion is a nuclear explosion, detonating a bomb is so much harder than you can imagine. Even detonating the bomb can lead to what is called a fizzle, where only a tiny percentage of the potential yield is realized. I had a close friend that worked at a nuclear research facility building detonators. The technology to do this is very, very difficult. Iran's ability to build a detonator that is both reliable and efficient is very low. It is one thing to refine material for a bomb; a task that requires consolidated efforts of a country to do. It is another thing to build a detonation system for the bomb. Lastly, the delivery system is another matter altogether. Again, it is not a simple matter to load a nuclear weapon into a missile and have it work.

My points here are first, getting a device in position, launching, guiding, and detonating a nuclear device is a herculean task that has been made trivial in the eyes of the public by both the media and Hollywood. Second, that a foreign country would attempt such an act and get away from it is another Hollywood-media hyped scenario. It is a very, very unlikely event.

Back to a more probable vehicle for an attack; a rouge actor. It is not a surprise that organizations like Al Qaeda are looking for ways to achieve a spectacular attack. Al Qaeda does not have the skill, money, or means to develop its own bomb. This means it must buy one from another nuclear country, steal, or be gifted such a bomb. The next hurdle is detonating it. So advisors from the host state must be part of the package. Then delivering it is another matter. Again, Hollywood and the media trivialize the amount of work this takes and it must also go undetected. This is no small feat.

If the worst happened and a ship was able to launch a missile with a nuclear warhead, what would be the possible tactical scenarios? There are two choices. One it to perform a ground detonation or a low altitude burst. This could be something on the magnitude of Nagasaki, but probably less. It would still be very devastating. The other tactic is called HEMP (High-altitude Electro Magnetic Pulse). The theory is that a nuclear explosion creates a high energy destructive wave that wipes out electronics. Theoretically, this could be more devastating than the first scenario. To do this you would have to detonate the missile's warhead about 18 miles above the surface of the Earth.

I said "theory" for a good reason. No one really knows how well this would work. Only about 20 such tests were actually carried out by Russia and the US. The results are highly secret, so the real impact is speculative at best and we just can't intelligently discuss the degree of threat this poses. We do know that a high altitude test called Starfish Prime was detonated some 400 kilometers up and that some electrical and electronic equipment 1400 kilometers away in Hawaii were damaged. So the potential is there, but we know little about how practical the threat is.

Nevertheless, we do know that detonating a nuclear device is a monumental task requiring funding and engineering that not many states posses. We also know that committing such an act will not go without forensics determining the country of origin. So, even if Iran (for example) develops a bomb, even if they develop a sophisticated detonation scheme, even if they develop a suitable delivery plan, and even if they sponsor a proxy entity like Hezbollah or Al Qaeda to carry it out (neither organization could afford to buy one), and most important, even if all systems actually worked, Iran would be turned to silicon heaven before the celebration got started. Essentially, the cost to give us a bad bloody nose would be extinction of most of Iran - at least its ruling party if done tactically.

This does not mean that the US is not vigilant about deterring such a threat. That, and our nuclear arsenal, are the main reasons it has not happened. However, a lot goes on behind the curtain of secrecy that we have no idea about. Speculation makes wonderful books of fiction or movies. It also creates waves of fear, most of which is purely irrational.

If the subject really interests you there are plenty of venues to get a better understanding. However, there is a lot of misinformation out there and it is easy to let one's emotions rule the day and walk away with an opinion that is not grounded in reality.

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#37
In reply to #32

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:53 AM

AH, there is one thing I would take issue with in this post. you assume that any weapon Iran would be able to create would be a crude weapon. that may or may not be the case. they have been in contact with North Korea and Pakistan and the three have been trading technical info and advisers for some time. Both NK and Pakistan have shown to be capable of detonating a device (I've commented before about why the supposed "fizzle" that NK had was not actually a fizzle and was in fact a full yield device. I won't repeat that here unless you really want me to.).

First off, if they have enough HEU, making a gun type bomb is easily within the capability of Iran, or you or me for that matter. it truly is a very simple device and does not require the shock-wave to be symmetrical. So the issues with the detonators and the explosive lenses go out the window. Yes it would be a relatively low yield device but it's reliability should be quite high. Leo Szilard and Enrico Fermi back in the 1940's at Los Alamos did the math and determined that if the HEU is enriched enough (over 90% U235), all you would need to do is to drop one hemispherical sub-critical mass onto the other, the closing rates don't have to exceed 1G of acceleration.

You are correct that building a plutonium implosion device is a difficult process, but NK and Pakistan have both accomplished that task, and the simple fact of the matter is that there is enough information in the open literature that they don't really need to follow the same crude engineering path we did. we've already figured out what works and what doesn't and enough people have talked about it that they don't need to go down that many blind alleys like we did. And there are other bomb making technologies we skipped over completely such as the use of neptunium. N237's critical mass is similar to that of U235. (something on the order of 60kg). and there are no international controls on the sale or possession of N237 like there are for U235 or Pu238/239/240 Just because we did it that way does not mean they will be forced to, they may well leapfrog us by utilizing our own published research.

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#105
In reply to #37

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/12/2010 7:51 PM

I agree with you. The "Little Man" uranium bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima was untested. Yet they were sure it would work. It is by todays standards. A simple critical mass bomb. "Fat Man had to be tested. Implosion of the plutonium sphere is more complicated. That was a very long time ago. Since the the beginning of the "Manhattan project", information, secrets, designs, components, etc. have been leaked, stolen, bought, misplaced or as of now, it is just plain out there. The fanatics would love to detonate a nuclear device, as the death toll would be immense. Not to mention the further deaths that would follow due to radiation. This would not just be tweaking the nose of "The great Satan" , but a very serious kick in the you know what's. Even a fizzle or a dirty bomb in the heart of a major city will be a major disaster. As for the delivery method. A suitable size truck, can move it from the assembly area, to the target. Yes it will be a ground level detonation, but it still will meet their needs. They are not interested in tactical and strategic concepts. Just death. When trying to understand people, that are driven by ideology, religion, blind adherence to a leader, or a one track agenda. You can not apply logic. They will do anything to advance their cause. Some of these people come to their ideals by them selves, others have it drilled in to their heads from birth. "The end's, justify the means" is really taken to heart. History is full of this. They do not care that their actions, could result in a reprisal that would turn their country, and every thing in it into a radioactive slag heap. I really doubt that either the USA or any other European country would do this. Fallout knows no borders. Unfortunately, there are enough nations out there with nukes, that may leap before the look. No nation is immune from attacks by fanatics.

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#39
In reply to #32

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:15 AM

More on EMP here:

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2005&month=06

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#42
In reply to #32

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:52 AM

Quote: "Now, Iran may get a nuclear bomb, but it is going to be very unsophisticated. While you make an argument that a nuclear explosion is a nuclear explosion, detonating a bomb is so much harder than you can imagine. Even detonating the bomb can lead to what is called a fizzle, where only a tiny percentage of the potential yield is realized. I had a close friend that worked at a nuclear research facility building detonators. The technology to do this is very, very difficult. Iran's ability to build a detonator that is both reliable and efficient is very low. It is one thing to refine material for a bomb; a task that requires consolidated efforts of a country to do. It is another thing to build a detonation system for the bomb. Lastly, the delivery system is another matter altogether. Again, it is not a simple matter to load a nuclear weapon into a missile and have it work."

I'm not concerned that Iran or any other rogue nation can develop a bomb and a delivery system. They don't have the capability to do so. I worry that someone in this country or Russia or China will sell them the technology. They have many sophisticated weapons, like missiles, AK74's and M16's. They didn't have to develop them. They were bought from Russia and the U.S. They can get nuclear bombs the same way if they have enough money. I really don't believe any country would be stupid enough to use a nuclear bomb. That would result in their total destruction by the good guys.

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#45
In reply to #42

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 11:20 AM

I've commented upon that before as well. NK needs oil and Iran has oil. Iran wants nukes and NK has nukes. both are under international trade embargo and neither really give a damn about it. It is pretty easy to connect those dots.

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#51
In reply to #45

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 12:19 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11/10/security-council-gets-north-korea-nuke-report/

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#55
In reply to #51

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:11 PM

Oh, Fox? I call bullsh!t!

Exclusive? That just means they faked it or altered it.

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#57
In reply to #55

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:14 PM

Dismiss it based on your own political biases at your own peril.

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#59
In reply to #55

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:22 PM

You do understand it is a UN report don't you dufus? I thought all you liberal idiots were in love with the UN and thought they could do no wrong.

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#66
In reply to #59

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:15 PM

Was that a personal attack based on a political belief? I thought those were not allowed in this forum!

In actuality, F ox is simply so biased, I can't see anyone taking them as a reliable news source!

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#116
In reply to #55

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/13/2010 11:02 AM

Just because you have a bias against Fox, dos not mean that everything they report is garbage. I do not watch Fox. That is my choice. Yet I will not dismiss someone who does.

In the end, if the facts can be supported, it does not mater where it came from.

Why don't you sign up to this forum and stop hiding behind the anonymity of "Guest"

That way the debate can continue.

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#117
In reply to #116

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/13/2010 11:56 AM

I'm not that guest but I do agree that I dislike Fox News. You are correct that they can and do make accurate news reports. My problem is that their evening editorial and commentary programs are formatted like their news reporting programs. They are certainly entitled to voice their views and perspectives. When they don't make it clear which reports are well researched news and which are personal opinions I must view all that they say as possibly unsubstantiated opinions.

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#72
In reply to #42

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/12/2010 12:36 AM

Your observations are quite correct and make for common sense. The Problem that I see, is that, if you have a country that is ruled by either, a singular despot, that has no concern for the people, or a group of despots, who claim to believe that the after life, is a step up, and have no problems test driving that on the the population. All logic and common sense is tossed under the bus. This is more problematic if they have a large pile of money. The reason that we have not had a nuclear war to this date, is that those with the bombs actually thought about what the response would be if they lobed off a shot. As ugly as MAD (mutually assured destruction) is, it still worked till now. I used to believe, it was impossible that any person would wake up in the morning and say: Today is a good for me and my family to be vaporized. Our best hope(and this is disgusting) at this moment, other than direct intervention (history is still grinding out the pros and cons of that idea), is that they continue to squander their wealth, on oppression and control, resulting in a civilian uprising, or they spend it on trying to slaughter their fellow citizens and neighbors. I do not endorse the concept any one loosing their life. Unfortunately it is a fact, and there is no way we can stop it at this time. It is not like the UN will actually do any thing, beyond looking elsewhere and giving a actual Democratic county a dose of, for some self serving indignation. I used to believe that even a dysfunctional UN had a chance of averting todays horrors. I was wrong. welcome back to the League of Nations.

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#5

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 4:10 PM

In my mind the most likely candidate is the jet contrail possibility that stevem cited. Another possibility that nobody has mentioned is a small meteor as it disintegrates in the atmosphere. I find it highly unlikely that it was an actual underwater missile launch by another country. A lone news helicopter capturing the after affects of a foreign submarine launch near the US seems even more unlikely than either of these two optical illusion scenarios. But I have to admit that there is a very warm part of my psyche that wants to believe that some amateur rocketeers really pushed the envelope.

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#7

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 4:49 PM

Well a reliable independent military source indicates NORAD doesn't seem to know what it was (don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing) so that discounts #5.

http://defensetech.org/2010/11/09/what-the-mystery-rocket-launch-off-california-coast/#comments

I am leaning towards a less sinister explanation. Time will tell.

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#8

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 5:00 PM

I'm in the Mojave desert of SoCal, and this was not Amateur rocket given how much easier it would be to launch from the multitude of open spaces out here. The DOD said it posed no harm cause... it was aimed away from us, it was a warning shot. The military doesnt seem upset cause thats the professional face they want to present, after the panic of the cuban missle crisis they havent told us anything anymore.

So who else would have done it? A foreign country!

Sea Launch is easier than you think if it is not done under the surface.

New fuel cell submarines are so quiet we can not detect them, this is the word from the military guys.

Occhams Razor, (no I dont know how to spellit), It was a missle anyone else saying something else is a cover story. So if it was a missle, not by us, then...

I rest my case, now all you engineers out there the question is how long to impact from a coast launch?

Spacecannon

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#9

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 5:18 PM

Stevem, thx for the link, the article may say jet contrails but the video attached is obviously a missle, even the Ambassasor in the video says rocket from a sub., the thing is we dont need to prove our capability to do this and when we do we advertise it so the world knows our capability, the ambassador also mentions a show of force given Obama trip to Asia, so who needs to proove to us that they can do it?

In case anyone has been following, the Chinese have said that they would have a serious dissciussion with Obama at the G-20, because of our inflationary policies will devalue all the debt they hold of ours. Its like saying loan me 100 dollars and by the way Im only going to pay back 25. Countries have gone to war for less. The tell will be if our financial policy changes in the next 6 months after this mtg.

So back to engineering, does anyone know the capabilities of N. Korean rockets? Chinese rockets? That missle was the size of an atlas, I have seen the launches from Vandanburg.

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#12

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 6:12 PM

This is all a bunch of loosecannon speculation, so far.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 6:50 PM

Tornado,

given your location and latin saying I would suggest you are exmil. or active and you are suggesting I keep my mouth shut? I like the truth, and I like to know what is really going on. They would be better off telling us the truth, it would be a slap in the face to so many that have become lax in the realities of the world. We in the US need to stop picking the flowers and start planting potatos and raising goats.

Engineering question here. How many milk producing goats and egg laying chickens does it take to feed 4 engineers in a hole (bunker) for 2 months?

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 7:20 PM

Boy, you do have a hyperactive imagination; I've never been in the military. Nor have I as yet suggested that you keep your mouth shut, though it might be a good idea. Since when does random and incoherent speculation lead anyone closer to the truth?

However, you are right about wanting the truth.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 8:04 PM

Its not random incoherent speculation when points of fact are analized. When people of Authority feed the public lies to manipulate or controll them, then we are left on our own to find the truth. I made my acusation of you because of the number of strawmen comming out of the wood work trying to explain this event away as commercial jets, weather balloons or swap gas. This is way too obvious.

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 12:13 AM

Calm down.

You are taking way too many tangential speculations here over way too little real information. The actual points of fact that I have is that there is one series of two dimensional video images from one news helicopter. These images have been repeated by several news sources and a speculative water launch site has been extrapolated. What I find very suspicious is that none of the reports I've seen indicate the location of the helicopter taking this image. If this had been a missile launched from waters thirty five miles off of the coast, I would have expected hundreds of images posted on the net from Oxnard to Huntington Beach showing exactly this trail. If these images existed then some very precise triangulation could be done to show the three dimensional trajectory taken by whatever this was. Instead I've found only the image that has sparked the controversy and no more than one or two other images that might correlate. None of the images explain where they were taken from that which I have seen. This makes it more plausible to me that the controversial image contains an optical illusion of something other than a missile contrail. What that actually is, I do not know. But I would expect a true missile launch at sunset from waters west of California to have many tourist images of sunset showing a launch contrail. Where are these images?

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 12:33 AM

Redfred

Check the weather for So Cal, we were socked in, no one from the ground saw it. No one I have heard of...

Spacecannon

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:30 AM

Then where did that picture come from?

This is what I meant by incoherent stories.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 3:08 AM

Are you talking about the picture from the helicopter? Are you really just a bunch of hot twisting air, Tornado?

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#41
In reply to #14

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:45 AM

Well said spacecannon. And I for one would like to know the answer to your

question as this could be a very real need to know someday.

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#17

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 8:16 PM

Hey dude guess what.... you are the most afraid species on earth.

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#18

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 10:22 PM

From what I've been able to glean, it seems to be just a testing exercise from the military missile base on San Nicolas Island, just off the west coast of La-la land.

Probably to support the launch capabilities of the X37B's coming into the arsenal. so spacecannon, don't worry too much, it's one of ours.

We'll know for sure in a couple of months from now, after someone writes an article about it. - Loupy.

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#22
In reply to #18

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 12:19 AM

Worry so much? Ive got to ask justifiable questions to stay on engineering topic, didnt you see the humor?

Im really angry we are being lied to by our govt. cause they are affraid of our reaction.

It wasnt from San Nic, thats just the next layer of cover story. It was mules away from any land.

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#19

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/10/2010 11:35 PM

ok lets try to identify the things we know for certain.

On Nov 1, Russia launched a ICBM test.

Russia is building what it hopes to be a Gen IV Stealth fighter in conjunction with India.

US Navy anti-ballistic missile technology relies on the ultra high power billboard radar arrays on Aegis class warships in order to lock onto and target missiles. And the modified Standard missile used can only attack missiles in the launch phase because in later flight phases the target is moving far too fast for the missile to catch up with it. Hitting a warhead moving at Mach 25 with a missile moving at mach 5 is a real crapshoot. by the time course corrections were made, the missile would have overshot.

Therefore in order to defeat the newly deployed ABM system, the key is to build the missile as stealthy as possible. This would by necessity impose some restrictive engineering criteria on the missile. Most likely limiting the payload and/or range of the vehicle due to excess weight of the radar absorbing/deflecting materials. so sub launched short and medium range missiles are the ones most likely to get such treatment.

The US Air Force has an unmanned "space shuttle" called the X-37B in orbit, it has been there for some time now and it is probably going to be deorbited soon. It was launched from Canaveral back in April on an Atlas V booster and is currently in an LEO inclined orbit at an altitude of 255 miles that crosses over NK, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and China, and of course California since that is where it is most likely be landing as well (Edwards AFB, but Nevada and White Sands are also possibilities). It has limited cross-range capability so it can't change it's orbit or glide path by huge amounts. the orbital resonance puts it over the same spot every 4 days. This is it's first flight. there is a second X-37B being built by Boeing/Scaled Composites.

One of it's suspected roles is as a quickly reconfigurable LEO observation satellite/sensor platform. essentially a "quicksat" that could be launched and/or recovered on short notice and with a modular reconfigurable sensor payload. not unlike the sensor pods on the SR-71 which could be swapped out depending on the mission at hand.

LAX/FAA/US Navy did not get a skin paint from the target, at least not that they are admitting to. Which argues that the missile had been "stealthed", possibly something as simple as covering the body and fins of the missile with RAM. or possibly with active countermeasures, or maybe both. A lot of research has gone into "metamaterials" which can bend EM waves. the first ones worked on microwaves which would have important application in stealthing tech. everybody talks about the research to make it broadband enough to work in visible light, but microwave band has been publically available for a couple years now.

So, my suspicion is that one of the planned tests of the X-37B is to see if it can detect and track a sub launched stealthed test missile like those that may be deployed (now or in the future) by Russia or China on their SSBN's.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 12:06 AM

Good Answer as well as a comprehensive explaination and logical extention to my original thoughts.- Loupy.

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#23
In reply to #19

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 12:28 AM

Rorschach, GA

That is a good answer and those tests do take place, but not off our coast like this, if they were going to deneign any knowledge of it then why not just do it at their normal missle testing range out in the pacific? Because it wasnt ours!

And the wild thing is all those things you said are true, just not common knowledge.

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#30
In reply to #23

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 7:56 AM

the location may have been in part dictated by the orbital mechanics of the x-37.

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#35
In reply to #30

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:09 AM

Ironically, the idea of metamaterials being used to bend EM waves comes from Russia.... Their scientists were and are first rate, their manufacturing however.... eh, not so much.

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#44
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Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 11:16 AM

On further reflection it is also possible that the location was chosen in order to also test a land based sensor platform and/or interceptor at the same time. Further, a rear approach intercept is the most difficult for a missile to accomplish because it takes so long to catch up. it is possible that a simulated intercept was run from a land based installation using a computer model of the interceptor missile as well. This test may actually have been a multi-level test of multiple systems at the same time.

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#28

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 5:30 AM

Jet contrail? Utter nonsense. Wrong everything - altitude, angle, plume thickness, presence of flame... Somebody had to be pretty desperate to think that one up.

Whatever it was, it was propelled by a solid-fueled booster, and it was guided - there is a kink in the exhaust plume showing a course correction shortly after ignition.

Which doesn't answer the key questions: what? whose? what for? where to?

My first guess was a submerged launch from a US sub with impact at one of the mid-Pacific missile test ranges, but there's no reason for the Pentagon not to acknowledge such a test. American SLBMs are solid fueled; I don't know about the French and British versions, but it seems likely. The early Russian SLBMs were liquid fueled and caused a lot of accidents, but they may have since developed solid fueled missiles. Obviously it was not an attack, or we would have heard of the result by now.

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#31

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 8:21 AM

We knew it was 35mi away then speed trajectory and course calcs will rule out any known jet.

It looks like some of the ols DOD movies of the the early Polaris program. It does the classic straight up launch and a course correction by missle using a solid rocket.

That being known the question is who/why and did we respond in some way. If it was Iran with a Chinese sub and missile. Then sink half/all of thier navy and destroy the important Govt buildings in Teheran.

Just a thought.

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#34
In reply to #31

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:04 AM

It is nothing more than an Airbus A380. The same thing happened on new years with the same exact flight. There are pictures taken from different areas and angles and it is clearly an airplane contrail. The video does look like a rocket but it can also be explained. This is not the first time this has happend...

NORAD and the military is saying they don't know what it is because they are answering the question as it was posed. They are aware of the Airbus but that is not what people are asking about. The question is what was traveling vertically like a rocket... It was not travelling vertically..

Look at this site for more info: http://contrailscience.com

It really does explain a lot if you care to look at the facts.

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#38
In reply to #34

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:55 AM

If it was an Airbus, that would also explain the fire...=b

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#46
In reply to #34

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 11:24 AM

Yep an airplane contrail is the most likely explanation.

We saw this earlier and we will see it again.

What I find truly appalling is none of the media fear mongers could do the simple research that you, brian220x, did to identify this likely source. As your link shows this was not the first missile like contrail was created by a camera looking at a normal air-flight. The first time the media fell to this folly was funny. Now I hope somebody sues them or arrests somebody for inciting a riot. Shouting FIRE in a crowded theater is not free speech, its a malicious crime.

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#62
In reply to #34

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 5:05 PM

I have seen contrails that look like this, including some where the sun was reflected off the body of an aircraft making it appear as though the contrail was a rocket exhaust.

My problem with this explanation in this case is that the observers described the object as moving away, out over the Pacific. This contradicts any likelihood that it was a contrail from an aircraft. The angles are all wrong for this to be an aircraft if it was in fact moving away from where the observers were.

I'd like to see the observers confirm the direction the object was moving -- west out over the Pacific, or east over the continental U. S.

I'd also like to see the data from the Air Traffic Control system. If it was an aircraft flying that close to LA, the radar system for LAX would easily be able to confirm it was an aircraft, and give the altitude, bearing, speed and aircraft designation. These would easily confirm or rule-out whether was an aircraft, or not. If the object shows up on their radar as fast moving and headed out to sea, it should also be possible to determine the approximate launch point, the preliminary trajectory and maybe even the final splashdown location.

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#33

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 8:56 AM

1) I don't think your first point is valid. You trust the Obama Federal Guvmint to tell you the truth? This is the same guvmint that is Changing the proud space exploration giant NASA from further space exploration to being a nanny to third world countries. Change you can believe in.

2) Nor your 2nd point. A US company on contract to the Federal guvmint is going to do exactly what the guvmint wants it to do, including any self-promotion.

6) The scuttlebutt says the launch occurred 75 miles off the coast of Point Magoo. If it originated 75 miles off LA, how many seconds do you think it'd take to reach LA?

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#36

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 9:12 AM

It wasn't a missile at all, it was the contrail from UPS Flight 902 (UPS902) or America West Flight 808 (AWE808)."

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#40

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 10:23 AM

MT#1: What better way for a foreign country, or company, to test a stealthy missile than to launch it close enough to the USA to be sure it will be seen, and also watch the response of the US defense organization?

MT#2: Amateur Rocketry is regulated with the US, and there are severe penalties for violating rules of size, altitude, launch location, etc. So someone wants to launch a really big Estes, but doesn't want to go through the red tape or risk jail time. Take the thing out to international waters to launch.

MT#3: Our government wanted to test a stealthy missile, but doesn't want to admit it to the international community, so they say "I dunno".

MT#4: A country not so friendly to the US was sending us a message that they can launch close in without warning. Our government would not admit this publicly.

Conspiracy theorists have fodder for the next 50 years. Maybe Jesse TB Ventura will be able to reveal the truth.

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#52
In reply to #40

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:04 PM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

This post was deleted because it was overly religious or political. While each user is entitled to his or her own opinion on these topics, CR4 is not the place for discussion about them. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

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#54
In reply to #52

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/11/2010 1:08 PM

I don't know about thinking out of the box but it sounds like you might be in the bin - loony bin!

This is getting really wild!

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#162
In reply to #52

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 2:25 PM

My post was deleted because it was concidered to political. Well, now the military experts are saying it was a Chinese missle fired across Americas bow to give us a message. They are telling us that since they are carrying much of our debt, and Bernacke wants to inject 600 billion into the economy, which will only devalue the dollar even more, we had better think about it. They just let us know, we can get to you anytime, even in your own back yard. When the question about the missle came up in a earlier discussion, I thought it was a political question. You were asking questions about what it was, and where it came from. I don`t wish to upset anyone, but come on, we all are adults here. How can you be off topic discussing who it belongs too and where it came from and why. Maybe I misread the question? Maybe I was too eager to get the truth out. I have been expecting a missle shot, but I figured it would be a EMP shot, off the East coast. My apologys if I upset anyone, but it is time to get our heads out of the sand. We are living in very dangerous times. This is why I have spent several dollars going to battery back up, and off the grid living. I suggest many of you do the same thing. Have a great day.

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#163
In reply to #162

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 2:52 PM

What a pile of nonsense! ROFLMAO.

We have known for years that China has ICBM capability, so they don't need to "give us a message." Misspelling missile, Bernanke, and apologies doesn't help your credibility any, either. You "figured" there would be an East coast EMP shot? More like dreamed.

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#164
In reply to #163

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 4:58 PM

Well golly jeez Mr.Tornado, I never claimed to be a spelling whiz. Your jumping on my spelling like that makes my message null and void. Sorry to disappoint you, but I usually spell pretty good,. Granted in my old age my eyes are not what they used to be, but when it comes to common sense I`m light years ahead of you. You just proved that with your response to my spelling. That was a really juvenile response, and really is a good indicator of your IQ, which seems to be lacking.As for Bernanke , my correct spelling indicator says its wrong spelled this way. But that doesn`t matter. What does matter is that Bernanke is in the news, dumping 600 billion into the economy which will deflate the dollar more than it already is. Several people in Congress are telling the Fed to not do this, but they are not listening. China is telling the Fed not to do this either. Have you picked up a paper lately?? If you have, did you read anything besides the funny papers.Now, in World Net Daily news, two military experts have come forward and said it was a Chinese missile. I did not say this, they did. They also said we just got a warning shot across our bow. As for the EMP missile shot, thats all that was in the news last month. Everyday for weeks, the evening news was talking about how easy it was for Iran, China, or North Korea to fire a missile from 12 miles out in international waters. This missile would detonate over Kansas at a altitude of 200 miles up, and take out our grid, and the military. Have you been living in a cave or something.We are being conditioned to except these reports, to prepare us for what is coming down the pike.As for my credibility . I have more integrity in my little finger than you have in your entire body. I`m a 100% disabled veteran that served with distinction in the United States Navy during Vietnam. I am also well know in the radio community, and hold various certificates. I am well respected in my community, and when the crap hits the fan, I am one of the first to volunteer my time and radio equipment for my fellow man. I have spent many hours dispatching police and fire departments and various rescue crews on my ham radios when their main tower was taken out by a tornado.I spent endless hours at this console passing messages to families all over this country when hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, letting them know how their loved ones were doing.When the SSCayenne was going down in the Gulf of Mexico with all hands, I picked up their SOS call and notified the Coast Guard. I was over 1200 miles from them, and the Coast Guard was socked in due to weather. I gave them the Cayennes known heading, latitude and longitude, and all were rescued. They could not reach the Coast Guard as their signal was bouncing over from the fog, coming down here in the Ozarks. Sonny, if I tell you something, you can damn well take it to the bank. Many things are about to take place in this country, I suggest you open your mind, and start paying more attention. Remember, nothing is impossible, and when you least expect it, its going to get you.I`m well prepared, are you. I sure hope you have a good day Mr.Tornado, I know I will.

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#165
In reply to #164

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 5:32 PM

I'd say the lack of paragraphs is much more troubling than the spelling.

I have not yet seen anything resembling proof that this was anything other than a con trail

To build an entire argument on such a shaky premise calls the rest of your post into question.

when I look at your history on cr4, this doesn't increase your credibility.

Citing a source a questionable as http://www.wnd.com/ another strike.

You claim to have integrity, but you you certainly don't have anywhere near the credibility of Tornado on this site [your alleged reputation in the ham community does not proceed you]

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#172
In reply to #165

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 5:16 AM

Well Garthh, I was going to let you slide, but I just couldn`t let it go. You see young fella, I`m not mad, but I am disappointed.The fact that you have no proof it was anything but a con trail disturbs me. But, then again since your living on the left coast, that pretty much explains it. Nothing but liberal retards, and your so called progressives that have taken that beautiful state straight down the tubes. I have never seen a bullet flying through the air either, but I have enough sense to get the hell out of the way. When I smell gas, I have enough sense not to light a match to see where its leaking from. From the video that I saw, which I`m sure was the one you saw, even with my bad eye sight, I can see it was a missile. I have only made 18 post, and I don`t come here very often. I only comment once in a while.That was a nasty crack you made about my history on cr4. I think Mr. Tonado has like 4,352 post, and I`m not sure, but I think somewhere around 164 good answers. That means every 26 1/2 post he gets one right. You on the other hand have 6,637, with 89 good answers, so that means every 74 1/2 post you get one right. Well, like I said, I only have about 20 post counting these, but now I think I have something like 3 good answers. So that means this old man has a right answer every 6 1/2 times. WELL, I guess at this rate, I need to post more, and show you boys how a old man does it.Another way I know your a liberal is the way you said www.wnd.com news service is unreliable. Every liberal says that. Every progressive and marxist says that also. About my reputation in the ham community, it is well and good. I have QSO cards from all over the world from people I talk too, and those listening on short wave. I have been talking on the radio since 1958, and I`m sure thats before you were born. Hell, I was probably in the Navy before you were born.If there was anything wrong in the ham community believe me the liberal run FCC would let me know right away. Oh, by the way. The reason I don`t have paragraphs is because I type until it fills the box, then it automatically starts another line below. Remember, I`m a old man who is not computer literate. I probably only know enough about computers to get me into trouble. But, like most things I do, I concidered very carefully when I bought it. Thats why I bought a Mack. you boys have a good day, and don`t get discouraged, someday you will grow up, and you might live as long as me, but I doubt you will be as smart as me. Exsperience Mr. Garthh, exsperience.

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#173
In reply to #172

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 5:29 AM
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#175
In reply to #172

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 8:08 AM

~ Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I-I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.~ General Jack D. Ripper, Space Squad Justice League

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#197
In reply to #175

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 6:17 PM

Dr. Strangelove is one of my favorites.

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#183
In reply to #172

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 12:00 AM

I was composing a factual & witty reply

During some fact checking I saw Mr. Bumbles post.

As usual he has said it all in his usual style

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#184
In reply to #172

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 12:05 AM

For paragraphs use the enter key if you are on firefox or internet explorer

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#185
In reply to #172

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 12:51 AM

Garthh is very well-respected here at CR4. You, on the other hand, are not.

I wonder if you could earn some respect.

You have no history to speak of, and a huge misconception re "good answers." Often, GAs are awarded simply because the answer is passionate or resonates with a particular person in some way -- occasionally it is "good " because it is both right and well written, or unusually complete. Sometimes GAs are awarded for humorous posts. A post that is simply "upbeat" can get GA votes. A post voted GA does not mean it is "right."

So... your premise here, that you are somehow "better" or "smarter" because one of your answers was voted "good" is utter garbage. If I had a question that required some real thought to answer, I would go to Garthh, to Tornado, to AH, or others because each has provided hundreds or thousands of very good answers that show some real insight.

Your own conspiracy theory drivel will garner the occasional "good answer" vote from a like-minded person. Don't let that go to your head. (Sadly, I see you already have). You will find that HHO promoters and perpetual motion machine promoters have garnered GAs (from people unacquainted with basic science) for nonsensical posts.

Here, you earn respect, and you do that by making meaningful contributions, not simply by being old and incapable of using a spell checker, unable or too careless to form paragraphs or punctuate correctly, or by believing that your computer is made by a truck manufacturer. The way in which your ideas are presented counts here, just as it does in other aspects of life. If you can't communicate logically, you won't garner much respect here, any more than you would garner respect in a courtroom if you address the judge "Hey look buddy..."

Many psychopaths and sociopaths have loads of experience. The simple accumulation of experience is of no value. It is your ability to learn from that experience and make a contribution that is valuable. If, at some point, you can show us that you've learned something, you might garner some respect. Just being old doesn't do much around here -- many of us are old farts.

I haven't read all your posts, and have no interest in doing so because they are too hard to read. But others may find something of value, and perhaps there is something hiding inside you that could, in the future, make a positive contribution to CR4. So let me give you this advice: if you do not want to get booted off this site, then do not write long insulting posts. (Read the FAQs.) When you include idiotic claims of your being much smarter than some other member (particularly a member like Garthh, who is well-known to be quite bright) it can end up positively reeking with irony.

Your last sentence has me nearly rolling on the floor.

I hope this helps you get better oriented to CR4, and also hope that at some point you will make a positive contribution.

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#186
In reply to #185

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 1:37 AM

A "truck manufacturer" ROFLMAO, oops, pms - must be age.

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#187
In reply to #186

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 6:01 AM

On the topic of missile launches, here is some fascinating footage. Some thought it was a comet but it is the launch of the Soyuz rocket which contained Progress-M. The white trail is unused rocket propellant and vapour which is being illuminated by the setting/rising sun.
At the 30 seconds mark is the transfer from first to second stage firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OL3eLJEr_A

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#189
In reply to #187

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 10:56 AM

Now there's a significant difference there in the contrails produced. I would be nice to get some more information as to where the image was taken and where the launch happened. But at least half of that information would have to come from some lying government official, so never mind.

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#167
In reply to #164

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 5:48 PM

Methinks the lady doth protest too much, and even more laughably than before.

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#168
In reply to #164

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 6:17 PM

A senior who will not take NO for an answer and stands up for his thoughts and positions: simply admirable! GA from me and I think Tornado has similar 'feelings' about this. I am sure he just over shot his mark by a country mile although he is usually a very good shot.

RC, although I do not live in America we all have the same propaganda to sort out and for it to make sense we have to interpret it from a position of experience. Just like an old machinist who can recognize that some sound emanating from the machine is telling the operator (the old dude) that something is going wrong, if not yet then in the very near future.

The less skilled in any discipline will walk past a near miss for several reasons.

1. they hear or see not at all because they can't differentiate.

2. They hear and see but due to lack of responsibility say nothing.

3. They hear and see but leave the next step to the guy in charge.

4. The guy in charge is the bosses son so he couldn't care less.

5. The senior has to step in and tell as it is.

6. The counting of collateral damage is usually left to the senior because he is/was/had to be prepared. My dad called it "allzeit bereit", "Be vigilant".

That is how I interpret your defensive out burst. The Old bloke reporting what he is witnessing and being treated like a peace of that soft, usually brown substance. Good on Ya's Mate!

Comparing it to the logic of the old world (last century) is legitimate. Like in any Shakespeare play it has relevance even in the now and here. I see it very much like you and have stated in the past that denial is a pestering wound and if not treated will course amputation of the limb or even death of the whole body.

I am a trilingual and I find spelling and grandma an interesting aspect in the writings of others. It gives one a good idea of the persons back ground, temperament, lack of humor, state of mind, sometimes even their choice of drugs. To tick it off as some mental state or personality disorder is poor communication, argumentation. All tornado's have a centre with less or no swirl at all, at least when they are born.

Happy to be here but I hear some weird sounds and have to report some worrying visuals. Guess what? Nobody wants to know, even or because I live in this beautiful part of the world. They know not what they are doing.

How things stay the same.

You go get'm old fella, Ky.

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#169
In reply to #168

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/20/2010 6:21 PM

I can clearly hear rumbling in the aether now

What a place to be on a Sunday morning. So positive.

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#174
In reply to #168

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 6:17 AM

Thank you KY for your support. Funny you should mention Machinist. I was a railroad machinist for 8 years. After that I opened my own welding shop and diesel repair service. Yes, I can tell alot about a engine when it is running. That tell tale ping, or the unnatural singing tells me a lot. The same way when running a laythe. Yes, I do stand up for my thoughts and positions. I think anyone who doesn`t is only cheating his/her self. But , like most things it took a lot of years of experience to gain that ability. You sound like a man of experience yourself. You most certainly have a way with the english language. I too can tell when I`m talking to a educated man myself. I really believe that a missile was fired off the coast of California , and several people refuse to see it or believe it. One thing that is readily apparent in this country, you can not believe anything this current goverment says. I really admire your Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. I like what he told the Muslims in your country. He is a hero over here in this country, but I doubt very many people in California have heard of him.I really think the Chinese are giving this administration a warning. As those two military experts said, a shot across Americas bow.I find it really disturbing that they got this close to our shores to pull this off. Sounds like someone was sleeping at the switch.You can bet some heads will roll, and people will be dismissed, even tho we may never witness it. One thing I have learned is suspect everything, and everyone. Then work out the details, and most of all, always follow the money. We owe a ton of it to the Chinese. But we all know I`m just a old man ramblin, so what do I know. Have a good day Sir.

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#176
In reply to #174

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 3:38 PM

Hi RC

Kevin is no more. It is now Julia Gillard. After a bit of back stabbing he is now our foreign minister and she rules the roost. Very clever Sheila that one. It only happened recently (September) so the hamies would have had other things to chat about.

Old age and youth are not achievements. What sets me off, sometimes, is that when a youngish person stuffs up it is taken with a grain of salt. When an older member does the same it is blown out of proportion. Disrespect is the out come. Not good, at all, from or for both sides.

I used to know a guy who maintained 18 Heidelberg lottery ticket printing machines. 9 on this 9 on the other side of a long isle. They do make a ruckus but he had it all under control. A bottle of brandy a shift and all was good.

We played chess when I visited and he would suddenly get up with his oil can walk 30feet down the row of sucking, twisting, stamping machines, squirt some oil kick the machine with a certain strength in a certain place and then get back to the board. I got a kick out of it myself but not from him but from his actions, oneness with the machine.

For me it was all a loud mess. I would have felt the same if I would have been on the floor of a stock market. The same goes for any profession. The guys who deal with the subject of this thread hands on are possibly rolling over on the floor. These things happen and to be the kicker you need to know your park and lubricate, kick (inform, misinform) accordingly. The more civil the the style the better.

Its a shame it doesn't work like that in politics but you keep kicking. She'll be right Mate, she'll be right as rain. What pun?

BTW, I think you are overreacting to the "style" of discourse here in CR4. It takes a bit of getting used to and there is an unwritten etiquette. Ad some spice but don't aim too high. It is not all about Good Answers it is the catalytic potential of some of the posts. The salt in the soup. Its worth it, at least it is and was for me.

Have one on me, Ky.

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#177
In reply to #176

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 6:29 PM

Thank you KY, point well taken. Thanks for the heads up. Even old men like me can still learn.

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#179
In reply to #177

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 6:51 PM

I was 13 when JFK was killed. I cried.

They never established who killed who on who's orders. Ever, just the old merry go round of power politics. I'm outa here, Ky.

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#180
In reply to #179

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 7:50 PM

I was only eight on that sad day. I went numb when in the middle of my presentation to the class when the public address system interrupted me. The school Principal tried to explain what had happened to the whole school. I guess he thought it would be better to warn the students why mommy would be crying when we got home. She was. Like millions of other Americans I witnessed Jack Ruby killing Lee Harvey Oswald on live television.

It would be much more satisfying to think that entire series of madness forty seven years ago tomorrow was all one big carefully and brilliantly covered up conspiracy. But as much as I want to believe that there are a group of conspirators that had my president and his assassin killed, it is much more likely that one crazed American mad at the government for always lying, killed the president. Then another crazed American convinced that the incompetent government would not punish the assassin, killed him. Just look at what has happened here over airplane contrails.

It's amazing how conspiracy stories tend to aggregate together.

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#200
In reply to #180

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 6:36 PM

"Some times a cigar, is just a cigar" Freud

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#208
In reply to #200

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 7:42 PM

Yep, and a wabbit will stay a wabbit as long as you let it.

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#178
In reply to #176

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 6:39 PM

Nicely put GA

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#181
In reply to #174

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 11:26 PM

I've tried to parse this post for anything that is related to the thread topic. The barely related content boils down to this:

"I really believe that a missile was fired off the coast of California"

Even that statement of belief is of no utility because it has no supporting data or evidence. It is the equivalent of writing "I really believe in the Easter Bunny." Who cares?

The rest of the post is simply political or anti-Muslim religious ramblings, which are discouraged on CR4.

Re: He is a hero over here in this country, but I doubt very many people in California have heard of him.

If we are going to stereotype, there is no part of the country more famous for poorly-educated, inbred, illiterate red necks who can't read newspapers than the Ozarks. The simple fact that California has more college graduates than any other state (about 6 times as many as Missouri, for example) would suggest that far more people there read enough to be familiar with Rudd. Rudd is not widely considered a hero in the US.

For the benefit of CR4's members from other countries, few Americans (mainly those who are unfamiliar with the spirit of our constitution and the strides we have made, albeit slowly, to grant rights to "all men," to women, and to minorities) consider Rudd a hero. Rudd's remarks, which have been paraphrased to "Muslims go home" do not represent the feeling of most Americans, and I can turn up no evidence that many American's share rcrain's adoration of Rudd (although one can easily find evidence that there is a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment in the US.)

I hope that CR4 will delete rcrain's posts, because I don't think that CR4 wants to be seen as anti-Muslim. CR4 is (we hope) the Engineer's Place for News and Discussion. It is not the place for political and religious drivel.

For this post to be considered anything other than the work of a bigot against California, liberals, Chinese, and Muslims, there needs to be supporting evidence presented: What study found that Rudd is considered a hero in the US, and what percentage of people claim him as a hero, and for what reason? What is the number of people in California who have (and have not) heard of Rudd? What evidence points to the Chinese having launched a missile near Los Angeles? What evidence points to anyone having launched a missile near LA in the evening in question. (All we have is a jet contrail that expands at the rate of an airplane travelling at cruise altitude, [and nearly an order of magnitude too slow for a missile.])

Baseless accusations of China launching a missile off our coast is simply irresponsible war mongering, and does not belong on CR4.

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#182
In reply to #181

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/21/2010 11:54 PM

Even old men like me can still learn.

To get that sentence out of him was worth the effort. You are correct about everything else regarding CR4 and its obligations towards fairness. I've read worse here and will refrain my self.

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#188
In reply to #181

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 8:38 AM

A poignant statement. I never herd of Rudd, and from what you have stated I rather not.

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#193
In reply to #188

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 4:23 PM

Well as it happens, they're both thinking of John Howard.

So it's a small point. And most Australians find it quite amusing when folk get the Prime Ministers name wrong. Hilarious, when it's the US President, or the British Royal Family.

Puts both posters in "good company".

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#194
In reply to #193

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 4:39 PM

I did mention Julia?

It's all shrimps on barbies for the outside world it seems. Are we there yet?

(yelling from the top of my voice from the back seat)

Not long now, Ky.

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#198
In reply to #193

Re: Missile Launch Off California Coast

11/22/2010 6:27 PM

Only after reviewing some of the posts that I did not get around to reading, it appears that I was asleep at the switch about "Rudd".

Canadians also find it amusing when the same happens about our PM's name, and we live next door.

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