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The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/20/2009 6:00 PM

A while ago, in a post in one of our too-frequent over-unity threads, I wrote about having a lot of respect for science, scientists, engineers, and academic mentors. The post rambled, like most of mine (actually, more than most), but it struck a chord with a lot of readers, garnering a surprisingly large number of GAs. So I know that there are a lot of people here who share my views, as you'd expect in an engineering and science forum.

It drives me up a wall when I search for "hydrogen" and most of what comes up on the web is pseudo-science, and a very large portion is just plain fraudulent -- one HHO booster scam after another. We now have frequent visitors at CR4 promoting the use of HHO (Brown's gas, oxyhydrogen, Hydroxy, magic, Joe cell) injection to boost fuel efficiency. 15 years ago, an internet search on "hydrogen and engine" would give you plenty of interesting hits about real uses of hydrogen in engines. Now, pseudo-science and anti-science are gaining ground against rational thought. (Ironically, the first HHO booster was patented in 1918, and looks just like those of today -- although some of the loonier promoters of today have added more obfuscation: molecular resonance, pulse width modulation, AC electrolysis, etc. (None of these has the potential for improving efficiency to 100%, whereas just breaking even on an energy balance would require over 500% efficiency -- so it is all just distraction.)

There is a $1,000,000 prize offered to anyone who can devise an HHO device that actually works as the frauds claim. Of course, that prize remains unclaimed. There is a far bigger prize, however, available for the developer of any device which can be shown by the EPA to actually work. A device that can improve the mileage of a car by 50% (Dennis Lee's "guarantee") is worth billions to the auto industry. Toyota spent a billion dollars just on coming up with an expensive, complicated scheme for improving the mileage of a small car to make the Prius. Imagine how much they would pay for a device that, instead of increasing the price of the car by $4000, increases it by $20. What an unbelievable advantage Ford would have if they could offer a $16,000 Focus which would beat the $23,000 Prius on fuel efficiency.

The same guy who offers the $1,000,000 prize put together a good video about these devices. This is perhaps a good place to steer people who seem incapable of reading the relevant studies, or opening a chemistry of physics book.

Elsewhere on this site I've written loads of posts about HHO, some going into considerable detail re the thermodynamics and combustion science involved. Generally, there is no way of knowing if some of the people arguing (on CR4) that HHO boosters work are scammers or only deluded, ignorant of the issues involved, insane, or incapable of designing a valid test. (This last is not a good excuse, because the EPA has been doing tests of such devices for years, and they can do a valid test for you -- or if you read their reports, you can see what is required.) An alternative is that the claimant has uncovered a real way to overturn physics and combustion science -- in which case, he or she should be running to the patent office, rather than trying to convince people at CR4.

So far, I have not seen any argument presented on CR4 that stands up to even light scrutiny. The more common arguments presented are these, the unlucky 13, which I came up with in an early response to some HHO promoter.

1. 15% (or 20% or 30%) of the fuel goes past the exhaust valve unburned: Flat Lie.

The percentage is never more than 1% either side of perfect, and is typically closer than that. Catalytic converters are damaged by values outside these limits.

2. HHO improves combustion: Misconception. The 1977 NASA study scammers routinely refer to (but never actually read) shows that injection amounts must be at least an order of magnitude higher (than HHO units produce) to have enough effect on combustion speed to have any significant effect on energy efficiency. Even this only applies when the H2 is delivered for free thermodynamically. The situation is actually much worse with electrolysis units, which consume engine power.

3. HHO simply adds additional fuel to the engine, which you get for free from the water: you are just "releasing the energy of the water". Flat Lie. This is the classic perpetual motion scheme, and was the standard HHO promotion lie for years. Water is not a fuel, which should be incredibly obvious to anyone who has put out a camp fire. Making H2 from water requires more energy than you can get from burning the fuel. Always, and by any method. (The fundamental chemistry of water dictates this. Claiming otherwise is much like saying that every time you put salt on your food you risk chlorine poisoning. This principal, re H2O, applies even if you use the highest quality electrolysis equipment, and burn the hydrogen in a calorimeter -- which measures its entire heat value. In an engine, the situation is much worse, because you only get 25% the energy converted to mechanical output.) The alternator load, and the fuel used to power it, goes up with the electrical load.

4. There is excess electricity being generated all the time by the alternator. Flat Lie. The greater the draw on the alternator, the more HP required, and the more fuel consumed. This should be obvious to anyone who has seen generators at Home Depot: big ones which (consume a lot of fuel) produce more electricity than small ones. It is also obvious to anyone who has read how a car alternator works, or who has worked on one.

5. I've developed a method for splitting water that is twice, five times or 50 times (yes there really is such a claim!) as efficient as "brute force" electrolysis. Flat Lie. A reasonably efficient HHO unit is 50% efficient. 100% efficiency is not possible, nor is any efficiency over 100%.

6. But my method "jiggles" the molecule apart with pulses of x frequency (or ac) at some frequency. I use "resonance." Flat Lie. This suggests that (in the inventors corner of the world) the laws of thermodynamics do not apply. It matters not whether you use tweezers or rocks, or high voltage or low, the laws of thermodynamics apply: even assuming 99% efficiency of the electrolysis process, the net loss is still large: for each ounce of fuel you consume to produce HHO, you get back 1/5 oz of energy in HHO (because, at best, the engine and alternator making the HHO is only 20% efficient.)

7. But I'm getting a 50% or 100% improvement despite the fact that you stupid science types think it does not work. Profound misconception, bad test method, mental instability, placebo effect, Flat Lie? Imagine yourself an inventor with a billion dollar device but sitting around making videos on YouTube, or spending your time trying to convince CR4 members, most of whom apply science every day, that science is bogus. Plausible?

8. You stinky meany heads would have kept the Wright Brothers from flying. Profound misconception. The Wright Brothers were classic scientists, and relied heavily on aerodynamics texts by Chanute and others, and on the experience of a very long line of aviation pioneers.

9. Stanley Meyer was convicted of fraud because of the Big Oil conspiracy against him. Profound Misconception. Stanley was convicted because he was a fraud who claimed that you could run a car on water, and bilked investors.

10. I'm not proposing any kind of perpetual motion machine. Profound Misconception. For the amount of HHO generated to even creep up anywhere near close to the point that its effect would be measurable (and not a net loss), the process must operate at multiples of over-unity (in which case you have a perpetual motion machine -- just plug the out put into the input and it runs forever.) In a typical engine of today, the electrolysis process would have to operate at 500% efficiency, just to get to the break even point. That is the physics of perpetual motion.

11. Well, if these things operate at a net loss, then I'd see my mileage going down, but I don't. Slight Misconception. These units draw about the same current as headlights (100 watts). The effect of 100 watts is very hard to measure on engine of 150,000 watts. (Obviously the potential benefit would be unmeasurable as well.)

12. HHO is monatomic, with completely different properties than H2. Flat Lie or profound ignorance. HHO is similar to oxyacetylene -- if you crack open both valves on an oxyacetylene torch when you light it, you get a bang. Ditto for lighting an HHO torch. However, when you put HHO into the intake airstream in the incredibly tiny amounts produced by an HHO "booster" the two gases separate, and all that is left as an energy difference is the tiny additional amount of H2, surrounded by and intermixed with an incredibly large amount of air (into which the O2 has mixed) with a small amount of gasoline vapor. At the instant that HHO comes out of the common duct, all you have is a tiny amount of hydrogen. Wackos claim that ultra high flame front speeds will prevail, thinking apparently that HHO remains in one place (about the size of a rain drop in the relatively huge volume of a cylinder) but it does not. It simply mixes with everything else. If it did not, it would be impossible to make the other silly claim -- that it has a measurable effect on combustion -- because only one in 500 times would that little chunk of separate HHO be anywhere near to the spark plug, to "explode" and improve combustion.

13. The HHO units makes the ECU "think" the engine is running lean, so the ECU increases the fuel flow. Therefore, you must tamper with your emission system. Flat Lie. These differences are not measurable (just as you'd expect because of the tiny amount of H2 injected) as verified by perhaps the best recent test of HHO devices, that done by Popular Mechanics. The Popular Mechanics test is particularly good, because it is easily understandable, but also because it was performed by a body that is beyond independent -- they gain ad revenue from mileage improvement devices, so it is clearly in their best interest to say that these things work, rather than that they don't work. If you poke around HHO websites, you'll find many "reasons" why HHO can only work if you buy additional stuff: solvents, magnets, fuel heaters, etc. Ironically, some HHO sites which said that their unit worked just fine a year ago, now say that you must buy additional stuff to make them work. ("We were lying then, but now we are telling the truth.") Suckers keep coming, though.

So... I've written about all I can about these units in zillions of posts here. I plan to generally ignore the HHO threads other than the really egregious ones. Perhaps others who are inclined to take up the slack, can use this post as a sort of summary for those people who stumble into CR4 with apparently genuine questions about whether these things work or not. Warning: the "apparently genuine questions" are hard to weed out from the "hard core scams". We had a guy recently who started with a few questions, then a wild claim of doubled fuel efficiency, then an admission that he is in the business, then a list of papers which he apparently hoped nobody would read which show (to anyone with a little science background) that these devices cannot work as claimed.

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#1

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/20/2009 6:14 PM

Hey Ken, great find! I've sent the links to some of the people who are "true believers". If they wont bring their devices over to our place for testing maybe they will belly up to the bar on this one, doubtful. If nothing else the links provide some good information from other sources that may be more convincing. I've also sent links to the article related to the law suit of Dennis Lee to some of these people on my list. So obviously you have your finger on the pulse related to developing information related to these devices circulating the net. Learning more is always good. Still no takers by the way for the rear wheel dyno. The one prospect dropped out. Well I'm always willing to give it a try as well!

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#49
In reply to #1

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 1:38 PM

where's "Your Place"?

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#2

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/20/2009 8:30 PM

While contemplating your statement, Water is not a fuel, I got to thinking about lightning. Lightning comes from clouds. Clouds are mostly water and neucleoginic particles. Yet a single lightning bolt releases tremendous amounts of energy. If you want to get energy from water, figure out how to replicate nature's process for producing lightning, but in a controllable manner so the energy can be harnessed for human, and hopefully humane, use. Water is not a fuel, but it is a good conductor in the right conditions.

Then, the thought occurred: Does lightning produce HHO? If not, why not? If it does, how much does it produce? Wouldn't lightning discharges ignite the H2 produced by previous discharges in a very electrically active storm?

I don't know the answers to those questions, but they do provide food for thought, and the answers might provide fuel for the fight against HHO scams.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/20/2009 9:16 PM

Excellent point. Considering that a single lightning bolt unleashes more energy than a car running for several hours, if HHO really works as these crackpots and scammers claim, then why doesn't the sky go "KABOOM!!!!" every time there is a major thunderstorm? And by that, I don't mean the sound of thunder...........

A 5-star thread, this is.

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#104
In reply to #3

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 4:37 PM

This is off topic and probably more fuel for the lynching, but I can't resist. Electricity follows the path of least resistance and must have continuity to flow. When there is a conductive path voltage will flow to ground. You can't SEE electricity. What you see when a cloud full of water vapor finds a path to ground is a discharge of electricity through a conductive medium creating a hydrogen gas explosion along the conduit. This phenomena is replicable and I have done this with a device I built using Tesla's dipole spark gap. The voltage will ignite hydrogen in water vapor or even steam. The reason lightning does not make the entire sky explode is that the conduit is broken up for the electron flow by the removal of water in the lightning explosion. And that BOOM you refer to IS thunder. When I explode hydrogen it sounds exactly the same as thunder and the color is the same. If you use high speed photography and compare lightning to hydrogen explosions you will see the same thing.

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#117
In reply to #104

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 3:48 AM

Do you really believe this?

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#139
In reply to #104

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 10:00 PM

Hydrogen gas has nothing to do with thunder. Lightning heats the air around it up to three times the temperature of the sun's surface. This sets up a supersonic shockwave that decays into a sound that we can hear.

I can easily see why others keep calling for more data to support your claims. You say that you fill up at the same pump every time. However, you probably are not getting the same gas each time. Refineries change blends for different seasons.

Also, ethanol can be a factor. Sometimes stations will get in a load that doesn't have ethanol because their customers request it. Ethanol reduces mileage. If your device was turned on when the tank had no, or less, ethanol than usual, then you would have experienced better mileage anyway.

I can think of other factors that can affect fuel quality: weather conditions when the station received the fuel, condition of the station's storage tanks, weather conditions when you fuel up, how long the vehicle sits between trips, where the vehicle sits between trips, etc.

Do you know how much the vehicle's tank holds? How much do you add when you fill up? When do you fill up? How much is in the tank before you fill up?

Then the most unknown variable is you the driver. Does your mood affect your driving? Does your mood affect your observations?

You might drive the same route on your routine trips, but traffic can vary, and that can affect your driving time, and your mood.

With apologies to Radio Shack: You've got claims, we've got questions.

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#147
In reply to #139

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 11:48 PM

lol, I knew the lightning comment would stir controversy. I hope it gets moved to the bad answers section.

I try to do the tests the same day when possible driving a circuit of 30 or 60 miles. Those tests are just for verification of some change to the system I am testing while I make adjustments, etc.

I will have help verifying the data using accepted methods and materials (gas) thanks to several people from CR4 especially Steve who has decided to fly here and verify using equipment I have never heard of before. I look forward to getting the testing done right and presenting those results for all to view.

I guess I take a lot of variables involved for granted. I try to do testing the same way every time with an easy acceleration from stop and steady speed limit driving regardless of what I am testing. My tank holds 20 gallons and I usually fill up around 300 miles. I always reset the odometer at fill-up and calculate mileage before leaving the pump.

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#11
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 4:08 AM

Lightning: static charge from rubbing or splitting ice particles, water droplets and air,

charging natures big capacitors (cloud to cloud or cloud to earth) to 100KV or 1 MV until breakdown.

Energy from this process: wash your hands and start rubbing until arcing occurs.

Ignition: immediately during the afterglow of the lightning as soon as the temperature has fallen to below ? 2000°C.

RHABE

Original post is really great. Thanks to Blink.

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#16
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 8:04 AM

Hey 3Doug:

You Wrote:If you want to get energy from water, figure out how to replicate nature's process for producing lightning, but in a controllable manner so the energy can be harnessed for human, and hopefully humane, use. Water is not a fuel, but it is a good conductor in the right conditions.

Has the idea of replicating nature's process to produce lighting in a controlled process been be explored in the scientific community?

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#17
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 10:27 AM

We shall really have a GQ rating!!!

Nature's process:

you have done it often: brushing you hair (or your cat) will generate a few 1000 Volts that give rise to small but visible lightnings (try in the dark) or if you wear a woolen suit and rubbing will generate static electricity, also floors, carpets etc.

Commercially: van de Graaf generator, Tesla transformer ...

Any of these very very inefficient.

RHABE

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#30
In reply to #16

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 11:24 PM

I thought Tesla worked on that, sort of. His focus from what I know and remember was grabbing static DC, and then in capacitence (capacitor) electric area bomb causing electro pick up and redirection to lighting.

I don't think Tesla ever made a claim that there was not some evidence for, and on occasion it would appear he even scared himself.

Far as I can tell there is some real value to fuel cells, but claims for you to be able to put water in the tank, and burn it are fraudulent.

I do think part of Teslas work bowed to the math, and it was recognized that all you would get was energy, with some interference with things like telephone and radio, etcetera.

Of course lately there is a move to put some Tesla sort of Wifi energy into a room to charge and power laptops.

Certainly it is a scam that we are to pay for all separate feeds for tv telephone and internet when all can hitch ride on the power fed normally to all the sockets in the house.

I'll tell you flat out I make no pretensions whatsoever to knowing more than Blink, or Chtank, or Jorrie, or Sparkstation, or Euporuium, or about some of these things.

I may be wrong about Teslas static electric wireless transmissions to light the World Fair.

I could be wrong on two levels. One it is not really direct to the topic.

Two, the reason it came to mind is that it won't work for the application, but is the sort of thing people wish would work, and therefore pray, and prey, over and over, grasping at shreds, those with evidence and smarts, abandoned to pursue more practical work. P.S. What's HHO stand for? Is Coherence along the ac feed wire what prevents power and information delivery on the existing wires? Node ground sink to pulse HD transmit points are suggested to me. -In this case I am only capable of asking questions.

I'm not having a particularly good day.

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#212
In reply to #16

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

05/16/2009 10:33 PM

I saw ONECRAFTYDUDE"S youtube thing and he shows something burning with plasma. Looks like water, but it could be anything.

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#37
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 10:30 AM

Static electricity is difference from the HHO.

HHO I believe is Cold Fusion. Which is separating the hydrogen from the water as an energy source. The best they've been able to come up with is a small spark and that's it. They haven't come up with a way to harness it as a feasible energy source so most research in that area has been abandoned.

To think some garage hobbyist has come up with a solution to this problem and can use it to run an automobile is preposterous. That's just to put it mildly.

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#38
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 10:39 AM

HHO I believe is Cold Fusion. Which is separating the hydrogen from the water as an energy source.

Please read through your fysics books again before clicking send.

HHO has nothing to do with cold fusion. In fact the HHO stands for nothing than a marketing trick.

Through simple electrolysis you can split water (H20) into H2 and O2 (the subscript is unavailable ahrrrr)

In your engine they are combined again releasing approx 60% of the energy you needed to split it. (add the losses within the ICE (30% efficient) and the alternator (perhaps 80% efficient) and you understand that you are a bit taken where you don't like it.

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#41
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 11:06 AM

I'm not saying I know much about it but I do find it interesting so I post something so I can get notification of any new posts in the thread.

This is a fun place to learn new things and thank you for clearing things up for me.

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#118
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 3:56 AM

You can subscribe to a thread without having to post something.

Look in the header section of the thread, it is a grey button.

But no problem, you're welcome to jump in the animated discussion.

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#106
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 4:47 PM

HHO stands for the contents of the gas: Hydrogen Hydrogen Oxygen = H2O.

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#110
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 5:46 PM

You've hit on another point, albeit a minor one, which sends chemistry, combustion, and physics types over the edge. HHO has also been defined as Hybrid Hydrogen Oxygen, but the most reasonable term, I think, is oxyhydrogen, which has been in use a long time and also has the advantage that it is similar in (linguistic) construction to oxyacetylene. Because of that, it is the common term used to describe the oxyhydrogen welding process.

HHO, when taken to mean hydrogen, hydrogen, oxygen is misleading, because the composition of the gas is H2 and O2. [ (2)H20 plus energy > (2)H2 + O2 ) ] HHO used as you did, reinforces the claim, mainly of free energy types, that HHO is monatomic -- in other words that the hydrogen exists as individual atoms rather than as molecules of H2 and O2. If you believe in monatomic hydrogen existing in the lines of an HHO booster, (rather than instantaneously during reactions) then it is just a short jump to believe in Yull Brown's whole "shtick," which makes many claims that are beyond extraordinary.

(There are even people trying to make implosion engines, who apparently believe that it is better to move a piston with a 14.7 psi (1 bar) differential pressure than with a 150-200 psi (10-14 bar) differential ... the reason being, I suppose, that Brown said that implosions are creative, and explosions are destructive.)

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#148
In reply to #110

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 12:03 AM

I suppose we will know what to call it after we analyze it with proper equipment. I had never heard the argument over the terminology for hho. I knew there were two different kinds of hydrogen but really had no idea that monatomic hydrogen is individual atoms as opposed to 2 sets of atoms. I suppose one is more powerful than the other. Thanks for the explanation.

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#173
In reply to #38

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/31/2009 9:28 AM

i tihnk he look for it still, but he alraedy click sned.

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#143
In reply to #37

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 10:35 PM

I'm not sure what you are saying? You say that hho devices are cold fusion and the best "THEY have been able to come up with is a small spark. My hho unit will produce a flame that can be placed under water after lighting it and held there as long as sufficient tip pressure is maintained above 1LPM. Dennis Kline has a commercial hho torch which can be used under water that produces a very substantial flame. I am not aware of his power consumption to run one of his commercial units or the amount and exact type of gas, but it is an electrolysis device.

Too often when things become difficult weak people succumb to accepted failure.

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#162
In reply to #37

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/28/2009 12:50 AM

I personally haven't played with trying to separate H2O, but a friend of mine blew up his garage about 40+ years ago trying to do just that. He was never able to recreate what he did do, but that may have been fear preventing him from doing so. I do know his parents were real unhappy with is outcome.

I stopped making things go boom many years prior to that time frame, after that last boom, I called it quits.

There are claims every day on Hydrogen fuel, same as large scale wind farms. I see no difference between those and big oil shortages. I do know we have topped off the oil reserves and need to find "real" answers for alternative fuels. Will they be efficient? Do they need to be? Gas isn't efficient, or I should say ICE are not efficient. So maybe we need a different type motor? This is a question.

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#48
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 1:36 PM

I suggest you type in "PLASMA" at youtube. Watch water explode and then see for yourself there is no power in water, lol. Hydrogen is energy and water contains a lot of it so it stands to reason that water is a very efficient carrier.

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#62
In reply to #48

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 4:54 PM

What if we tell you that the energy needed to let this water "explode" doesn't come from the water but from the Plasma that has been used to 'ignite" it?

Let me tell you a secret: in each free energy system there is a trick and a source of energy which was overlooked or build in on purpose.

One inventor was so far that he could have one of his perpetual mobiles installed in the British Museum (If I recall right) but after installing it it didn't work at all. So it was never showed to the world (he took it away before public could see it)

His explication: the light level was to high.

Real explication: there was no way that he could feed the system when he wanted, it had to be in a closed glass cabinet so that none could touch it.

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#65
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 5:16 PM

Simple question: Does water contain hydrogen? If the answer is yes then a reasonable man or woman would assume that it also contains power. As far as which contains more power plasma or water I am not even interested in debating. If you want to see for yourself just watch water explode and watch the plasma without water and see the difference for yourself.

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 5:22 PM

Here you make your misconception: the power is not in the hydrogen but in the reaction of combining hydrogen with oxygen, producing water.

Did you ever see the reaction of oxygen on many substances: the real nasty shit in your gas is the oxygen, the hydrogen only makes metal brittle, the oxygen can make it burn.

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#105
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 4:46 PM

I learned something new today. Oxygen make metal burn. I will remember that when i walk outside and get in my metal clad van and start it up with my metal key completely surrounded by oxygen.

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#128
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 9:57 AM

It doesn't make solid metal burn but it will make metal shavings burn. In ship yards, they have on the bins that contain metal shavings, they have signs that warn to no throw batteries in the bins. During firefighting training it was explained to us that with the availability of oxygen to circulate around the finer strands of metal a batter would cause it to catch fire.

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#129
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 10:30 AM

Blank metal turns brown, this process is known as oxidation. It is nothing more or less than burning.

Just crank up the temperature and partial oxigen pressure and you will see nice heavy flames of bruning steel. (a cutting torch)

Regularly the shavings of metal start to burn, if thrown on a nice pile.

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#130
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 10:43 AM

That's rusting.

That's molten steel.

You're trying to make points by pointing out the perfectly obvious.

Metal shavings burning is not so obvious to most people. In fact, most people don't know about it unless they've had some personal experience working around it because it's not something that is commonly taught in school.

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#131
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 10:53 AM

What flows out of the torch cutting process is not molten steel, it is molten iron oxide or rust.

But as you conclude correctly: it is indeed not teached this way in school (at least not in primary and secondary school) and many people just use their imagination, this can result in really strange and funny idea's on how the world revolves.

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#90
In reply to #65

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 2:55 AM

Simple question: Does water contain hydrogen? If the answer is yes then a reasonable man or woman would assume that it also contains power.

This is unfortunately almost entirely untrue, unless you assume that the reasonable man or woman has no education whatsoever in chemistry. If they have no education in chemistry, then this would be an unfair question. (Technically it is also untrue because the only thing hydrogen can be realistically said to "contain" is energy, not power.)

Sodium, when dropped into water, reacts violently. Chlorine is a poison gas. But sodium chloride is common table salt. The fact that H2 is a fuel does not mean that water (a fire extinguisher) is a fuel. The electrolysis reaction for water consumes more energy than burning the H2 provides in heat. (You can find at least 1000 references to this fact on the web, and can verify this with any college chemistry teacher, and any competent high school chemistry teacher.)

H2 is often called an energy carrier, rather than a fuel. Free H2, ready to burn, does not exist on earth, in anything other than trace amounts. We must make it. When we make it from water, (even with the most sophisticated electrolysis units) the energy "carried" by the H2 is the energy going into the electrolysis process (minus losses). Thus many people will say, regarding the "H2 economy", "If you have the electricity available to make H2, you'd be further ahead to simply charge electric car batteries (which can be done at very high efficiency) than to incur the losses of electrolysis, along with the additional losses of recreating the electricity via a fuel cell.

Although the typical HHO installation does not produce H2 in sufficient quantities to influence combustion in the ways that many HHO promoters claim (namely speeding combustion to a significant, beneficial degree) the fundamental and most basic misunderstanding that is seen throughout the water-for-gas world is the one you seem to hold, and mention here. Water is not an "energy carrier" in any reasonable sense. In this system, the "energy carrier" is the fuel in the fuel tank, and for each five BTU of fuel burned, you get back just 1 BTU of hydrogen (which briefly serves as an energy carrier), at the optimistic end of the scale.

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#107
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 5:03 PM

I ignite hho all the time. I can hold the flame under water and watch it burn without igniting the hydrogen in the water. I agree that the output of hho gas is small compared to gas vapors burning, but I disagree that the energy content of hydrogen is less than the power to create it unless the source of that power is an over-unity device. In that case you should be going after the alternator people and not the hho people. I am not here to change your view on accepted scientific evidence. I know that hho increases fuel economy and power as well as reducing emissions. How that translates into existing scientific theory is not my problem. The proof is in the pudding. If a car gets better mileage from the addition of hho it has to be doing something.

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#150
In reply to #107

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 1:04 AM

After watching this thread become endless, so are all the hypotheticals. It's not like none of this has ever been figured out and tested since 1839, when the first fuel cell was conceived. (by Sir William Robert Grove). I see a lot of re-inventing of the wheel. Ignorance of the function of proven science is why people speculate instead of researching answers already provided to that of which is being discussed here. Which is what all engineers and scientists have been saying. Yes there can be anomalies and there is always a better and new way to do things. That's why we invent. Yet the laws that get violated in physics or thermal dynamics prove and have proven no results. Non-the-less, here are some things I've noticed through out this thread in reference to your device:

I just kept this simple, why your or anybody else's HHO device will not supplement appropriately in an ICE. Especially at 2, 5 or even 11 lpm. (liters of Hydrogen and oxygen, so obviously even at 2 lpm is less than half of that is actual hydrogen gas).

The existing technologies to create Hydrogen by electrolysis are all around 20% efficient, which means that around 100 kWh of electricity is used up to produce a single pound of Hydrogen gas. This using KOH (considered one of the best in these auto hho units) is at best only 20% efficient. From that your only utilizing less than 50% of that which is H2. So very nominal to boot. Thus your comment of utilizing 1 quart per 1,000 miles is not feasible in terms of production in any way to supplement a small cc four cylinder on any level. Perhaps you meant something else there.?

You mentioned no water vapor or heat developed in your process. Heat is one of the advantages to producing hydrogen in electrolysis and would bring up the efficiency of production. Refer back to google regarding high temperature and or high pressure hydrogen generation. You'll see below in the units below, that production of HHO was faster and higher with the same amperage with the water hot.

You mentioned I use a half a pound of koh to a gallon of water... In my own experiments, even a tea spoon of KOH into 1/2 gallon of water sent my amp meter past 200amps. We were using a HD batter charger that had that capability. This was all done for kicks as practical applications were unrealistic. I did however for (to see if I can) managed to get my 318 mopar motor to idle on said HHO for three minutes. This, by plugging in to a 110 source! The joy ended with a breaker trip and some melting.

(see here for other means of producing Hydrogen: http://www.hydrogenassociation.org/general/faqs.asp one of many sites out there that can give efficiencies of generation and other details)

This also is not including the fact that the refuse from the electrolysis is the result being H3 remains and where the water can no longer produce H2. Thus this H3 is better used for cooling the combustion chamber. This is usually never mentioned much related to these systems. This is the brown crap that become a thick residue over time on the inside of the generator.

Did anyone mention the extreme corrosiveness of KOH or any other sodium based electrolyte. A gentleman from Las Vegas Nev. bought a Flying Dutchman where within a few months the corrosion around his BFV in the throttle stuck and had pictures taken of the inside of his Aluminum intake and combustion area to reveal white particles of corrosion.

It is well known that the btu in gasoline far exceeds that of pure hydrogen. ie; pound of hydrogen gas contains just under half of the chemical energy of a single gallon of gasoline. Or a gallon of gasoline contains around 6 pounds, and has 126,000 Btus of energy in it. A "gallon" of hydrogen (gas) only contains around 40 Btus in it.

But simply any engine must, in order to maintain and carry it's required expected work load must maintain a stoichiometric measurement of 14:7 for normal operation is still self evident. Leaning out to even 18:1 is possible but power drops considerably. Also known is a required 12.5:1 to 12.8:1 for pulling a load source or simple maximizing power in combustion in the ICE. It has been a practice of some hyper milers to change the output signal of a typical wide band O2 to get the ECU to change the injection pulsation wave for a leaner burn, or before it goes in to a closed loop system as you've pointed out. This as reported by some, reliability not counting, a generous 3 to 5 miles per gallon. Plausible in my opinion. (Search through here:http://ecomodder.com/

I wont even get into flame front travel and the timing requirements with larger amounts of hydrogen production or utilizing compressed hydrogen in and unmodified ICE.

One more known fact is that water vaporization of a determined amount metered into the combustion chamber will have a desired effect. This was achieved with "copious" amounts of water in the Convair 440 and the Northrop P61 Black Widow to name a couple planes in the earlier years. The phase change of the water at the moment of combustion in the combustion chamber provided a thrust of power upon high altitude acceleration and or take off from carriers. (thus increasing combustion pressures) I've tried it in my Duster (three years ago) and it's like a small hit of Nitrous but not as "punchy". It was a bit scary but I realized the engine was old and if I blew it, I wasn't to concerned. It's still on the car but I didn't use it much and never got a chance to try it at the drag strip. With the water molecules disassociated provides a better atomization in delivery. This is the secret of getting more of the internal energy out of the fuel already being delivered into the chamber.

I do believe that some will get some mileage increase. I believe you are getting an improvement in mileage. Either by you signal change to your ECU or simply water vaporization. Again everyone here has stated the importance of viable and ample test results. Many have given you great methods in which to approach that.

The above is from simple research and there is tons I didn't put in here as this forum is way to long and this subject has been beaten to death. I've done lots of dyno testing related to water injection, steam injection, vaporization etc. This now for over 4 years. NO ONE with these devices has taken me up on it including a dealer here who is still selling them. This after disconnecting one of his units from the electrical connections and finding that his results were the same. Which were exaggerated at best.(I didn't mention this earlier).

The two below were what we built just for fun. I blew one of the Lexan box's up lighting it with 25 amps. The black one I ran on the Duster for 6 months and tested it to come up with what I discussed above. It automatically filled when it the level go below a given measurement. The H3 was sent out the bottom into a variable venture before the turbo compressor inlet. Thus a more consistent pull of amperage in the generator. Aside from the laws of physics applying here, it was fun but not worth the energy expended from myself or the alternator when gains were better met through the means I utilize now.

That's my take on it anyway.

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#151
In reply to #150

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 1:38 AM

By the way, Kens given practically every noted text book reference to this subject possible. The post right above yours (Post 90) is simple and accurate. Fighting what hundreds of colleges and laboratories have proven time and time again in this subject, is unproductive. Fun maybe but ultimately unproductive if one doesn't build on what new or ground breaking information already exists.

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#153
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 2:16 AM

Is it possible for them to be wrong?

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#176
In reply to #153

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

04/01/2009 8:13 AM

of cause!!!

who is truth always?

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#152
In reply to #150

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 1:59 AM

The site you pointed out was interesting. You said that the btu of gasoline far exceeds that of hydrogen, but the site you cited says it has the highest energy content per weight of any known fuel at 52,000 btu/lb.

I would not want any koh to find its way to any aluminum surfaces. I use a closed loop system for my design utilizing a seperate bubbler/reservoir and a secondary bubbler/scrubber. If any electrolyte were to escape with the gas from the reservoir it will be captured in the secondary bubbler.

I am using a mix of about 1lb to a gallon of Koh in my current testing which has given me multiple readings over 10 MMW. I suppose this reading is greater than the 20% efficiency you stated was the best I could hope for. I can't speak to the efficiency of your device because all I could really see was a pvc pipe. If I saw what was inside I could probably guess the efficiency within 1 MMW.

I do not use any water injection or water vaporization or water vapor of any sort. I only supply dry hho to the intake just in front of the throttle body. The amount of water used in my device is small because of several factors, the main one being efficiency which affects heat and therefor vapor.

You said you were making H3 with your unit? I am still learning what these compounds are so if you could explain how to test for that I would appreciate it.

The brown muck inside your generator is commonly known as mud. It is iron oxide removed from the iron in the stainless steel. I have my stainless electro-polished for that reason and never see mud.

An interesting note in that page you referenced is: Lowering the voltage for electrolysis, which will increase the efficiency of the process, is an important area for research. That sounds like what I am doing. In my tests today I incorporated a pwm to control the voltage better and was pleasantly surprised by the highest efficiencies I have ever recorded. I will do more testing to verify the few results I saw today within the next few days and post the results.

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#154
In reply to #152

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 2:20 AM

Good. If you feel you are entering an area that has not been proven from any other reliable sources, then perhaps your efforts are warranted. Just don't get stubborn in the process and it seems as though you've lightened up in that area, as I gather from your posts. Yes I'm aware of the Mud. Thus I've used aluminum as well as incorporating other chemical compounds which have been proven by others to produce much more volume of hydrogen through electrolysis. The trick in all of that is to not use much voltage or current at all, which is all about bringing up the efficiency. However, there is still only so much hydrogen per mol, in water, thus where efficiency of production is also critical. Even if you had 50% efficiency in generation, 1quart would not run your engine, and maybe supplement for a very short period of time. Unless you are sufficiently producing what the engine can supplement with say 18:1 ratio in fuel, then there is no gain. You can not change the requirement of the engine. You have to make up the difference to gain the power back if you want good drive ability. You mentioned without recalibrating your 02, gains were not identified. Again I haven't messed with that stuff in 3 years as I've moved on to home power efficiencies and multi fuel delivery and induction systems. My gains with our experiment are much higher and we still have well into July to have conclusiveness in our finding and to perfect our systems. So keep on working on it particularly if you've got a lead on a more efficient means of production.

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#155
In reply to #154

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 6:50 AM

You wouldn't be working on a car for Auto-x would you?

Aluminum will create hho chemically. It gets used up in the process and creates unwanted compounds in the gas.

I am not running the engine on my hho output. I have stated numerous times that I use a small amount of hho, less than 1 LPM, and since there is no vaporization or heat the water is used very slowly at these rates of production.

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#156
In reply to #155

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 10:40 AM

Aluminum produces pure H2, not "HHO". There is no reason that "unwanted compounds" would be present in the gas

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#164
In reply to #156

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/29/2009 6:01 AM

How does aluminum produce pure hydrogen?

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#168
In reply to #164

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/29/2009 12:39 PM

2Al(s) + 6NaOH(aq) → 3H2(g) + 2Na3AlO3(aq)

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#174
In reply to #107

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/31/2009 10:52 PM

"I ignite hho all the time."

Who doesn't know that hydrogen is highly flammable and burns very hot when comined with oxygen? Why else do you think it's sometimes used for welding?

"but I disagree that the energy content of hydrogen is less than the power to create it"

Who cares what you think? Facts are facts. Whether you like it or not, it's true. Unless of course you're claiming that your device works on cold fusion.

"In that case you should be going after the alternator people and not the hho people"

That's one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard. It's impossible to create an over-unity generator because energy can only flow from a higher potential to a lower one.

"I know that hho increases fuel economy and power as well as reducing emissions."

Prove it.

"If a car gets better mileage from the addition of hho it has to be doing something."

Yes it is. It's deluded you into thinking so. If you say I'm wrong, prove it.

One more thing, what exactly do you use the magnets in your system for? What are they supposed to do? Neither hydrogen gas nor gasoline is magnetic, so magnets will have no effect on them. Moreover, even if they are, you would want your fuel to be thoroughly mixed with the air for more effective combustion, and not have it form a narrow linear stream.

By the way, you couldn't pick a better handle for yourself. Crafty = sly, cunning. Exactly what a scammer needs to be. You're broke? Get a job instead of sponging off your wife and wasting your time trying to scam people with lies. Yes, I called you a liar. Why? Because on the one hand, you claim you're not selling anything. On the other hand, you also claim to be talking to investors. Now why would anyone invest in your product unless they thought they could make their money back? And how would they achieve that if not through sales? If you're not a liar, explain this contradiction.

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#175
In reply to #174

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

04/01/2009 6:55 AM

I am done trying to convince anyone Vader. If you want answers read my posts because I explain everything. I am working with investors so I can PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that my system works. I am not using magnets or a pwm or even O2 controls right now and have a 33% improvement which shows that the HHO works since it is the only variable that has changed from stock.

Argue all you want about this being impossible, but soon that argument will be as effective as a flat planet. Science needs to accept that there is something significant in mine and others' work and quit using old rhetoric which doesn't explain what is happenning. Steve will verify my testing Friday and if anyone else wants to go for a ride and see for themself I would be glad to show you. Maybe you could hold off on calling me a liar until you know for sure that I have told a lie?

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#177
In reply to #175

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

04/01/2009 10:14 AM

OCD,

You say you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your system works,

still waiting

The more you write the more doubts there are!

I reinvented the wheel more than once, only to find out I wasn't quite as clever as I thought...

Where's the data?

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#178
In reply to #175

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

04/01/2009 11:09 AM

"Steve will verify my testing Friday and if anyone else wants to go for a ride and see for themself I would be glad to show you."

He's not exactly a neutral third party now, is he, seeing how he himself is selling such systems? If what you say is true, get the EPA to test it, NOT a fellow HHO supporter since he will report that it works even when it doesn't. If not, a highly respected member here has already offered to test it for you FOR FREE, but you refused to accept it. If you really are telling the truth, accept his offer. Get your pal Steve to witness the test if you want, but PROVE IT.

"Maybe you could hold off on calling me a liar until you know for sure that I have told a lie?"

You have ALREADY PROVEN that you're one. You have still not given anyone a satisfactory answer as to WHAT your investors hope to gain in return for helping you "prove your system works".

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#179
In reply to #90

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

04/01/2009 11:44 AM

If the amount of HHO injected is so small then why is it that usersfind that they get an ECU code from the o2 sensors?

Obviously there is enough O being created to change the exhaust content!

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#4

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/20/2009 11:22 PM

Ken,

While I don't know enough to be able to pull apart a "Scammer Little Black Box", it's a pity I can't give you a GA for the thread as it answered some questions I never asked . I'll just have to rate it on the way out.

Should be a fun thread as we watch all the owners of said black boxes come out and try to defend themselves against science.

Or are you just trying to get the "Longest Thread Award" ?

I'll just keep reading,

Regards,
Sapper

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#9
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Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 3:16 AM

This is the longest thread on this forum!

I shamlessly absconded with this pic from the squirrel

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#5

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/21/2009 8:10 AM

Excellent summary of many long arguments!

Wish I could GA.

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#6

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/21/2009 11:27 PM

The only example I have personally witnessed of water adding to the power of an internal combustion engine was back in 1961 at Harlingen Air Force Base, Texas. The T-29 D model (Convair 440) was equipped with direct water injection into the cylinder and the steam kick as the water vaporized was enough to push you back into your seat. But there was a limit to the time that the engine could be run in that mode before damage occurred. The short pause that the engine "died" as the water injection was initiated was most unnerving to us student navigators.

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#7

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/21/2009 11:28 PM

i thought that this "technology" was old hat and that people had moved on to the latest thing, "trunk mounted manure digesters". "just park your car with the trunk toward the sun and buy the end of the day you had plenty of "gas" for the trip home!!!

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#8

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 1:53 AM

Oh, come-on, you have to admit that when you see a new HHO thread, it's the first thing you click on. It's really fun for me to see such outlandish claims, and the reason that this new idea really does work.

I think these scammers work in pairs. The first guy, claims that "no matter what you say, it works for me". Then he goes on and on about how his F150 went from 15 mpg to 35 mpg with this new revolutionary device, and he's just an ordinary guy. Then, some time later, the second guy chimes in with similar claims.

The funny part is, CR4 is the last place on earth to try to drum up new victims.

However, there's one question I have, that none of these jerks ever even attempt to answer, or even address on the many web sites: How do they keep the water in the mason jars from freezing on a cold New England night, or when parked through the day)? Am I expected to empty it and drain the system after every single trip I take throughout the day, (and then prime it again)? Boy, that really sounds like fun.

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 5:05 AM

To solve the freezing problem I can sell you a pretty good product: self regulating heating tape and insulation.

How do we power the tape? By connecting it to the 12V DC of the battery.

We can make you a special version which works perfectly at this level (normally you need 120 or 230V AC to get the power you want), you only have to buy at least 15000 feet / order.

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#18
In reply to #8

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 10:56 AM

As you know, pure water freezes at 32oF (0oC), while impure water like seawater freezes at a much lower temperature. So that's why the water in the mason jars don't freeze up even in the middle of winter in New England. The water has been completely contaminated with bullshit. In fact, there's so much bullshit in it that it will not freeze up even at Absolute Zero, which is why these assholes can keep on at it when anyone with a brain will be completely frozen when confronted with the facts.

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#74
In reply to #8

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 7:51 PM

My system will not freeze. I use a half a pound of koh to a gallon of water in my new cell design for that specific reason. If you would like to test the validity of that claim yourself feel free to put a half a pound of Koh in distilled water and throw it in the freezer for a week.

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#10

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 4:02 AM

The One Million Dollar HHO Challenge

Updated: February 2009

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The sponsors of the One Million Dollar HHO Challenge have chosen to postpone the competition.

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#108
In reply to #10

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 5:07 PM

It was already pulled when Ken posted that.

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#13

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 5:23 AM

It all comes together with a profound idea that lives in the crowds: easy money is the right of everyone.

Why did they believe the Maddof's: just because it looked to nice. If he had only promised an improvement of 10 to 15% over the normal interest rates they would never have had any confidence in him.

Why do people jump into those Pyramid systems: for the money they will get when it all would work. Not for the brilliance of the plan, they all would realise after some seconds of thought that somewhere in the plan there is a little problem.

These so called scammers really plan their business: they really work out a marketing plan to make it happen. They also know from which level of promise 5% of the population gets blinded and just believes them. In many cases they have serious degrees (but not in engineering or applied science)

Just compare energy with money.

You can have a nice pile of it and if you want something you have to take some money and give it in return for the favor/product. when you need more money you will have to find a source, which level you then lower.

Just like energy: if you want something to happen you will have to use some of it. When you run out of it, you will have to find an energy source, be it the sun or fossile oil.

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#14

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 7:39 AM

Cannot give you a GA because you were the OP!! Sorry.

Great post, some of the replies are a bit scary though, the people concerned did not understand your post, nor do they understand energy and energy conservation......there are already several "Flat Earthers" posting here....sad.

You should also get one for the longest single post in my memory at least!

If you ever plan on coming to Germany, I can help you find hotels and I would buy you a couple of beers as well if you are anywhere near to my area....

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 7:52 AM

Cannot give you a GA because you were the OP!! Sorry.

Why don't we have a GQ rating yet? (of coarse there are no stupid questions, only the answer can reach this level)

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#39
In reply to #15

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 10:40 AM

Actually, there is. Look just above the original post, on the right side, you'll see:

Subscribe

Rating:

Comments: Nested

Click the rating link and you can give the thread from 1 (poor) to 5 (excellent) stars.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 10:44 AM

Thanks,

Just learned something, the day is made good again.

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 11:55 AM

I too learned something new.

thanks Chris

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#19

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 4:14 PM

I fully agree with your explanations.

For transport purposes the HHO is only a means of energy storage, and certainly a very difficult one.

The procedures I know to obtain HHO, are not valid as replacement of the fossil fuels.

I would like somebody could discover another valid one. He should never forget thermodynamics.

I hope somebody will do it soon.

Arturo Pérez Rodríguez

Dr. Industrial Engineer

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#20

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 4:34 PM

I personally got energy from water in an electrostatic device by using two falling jets of water, two wires and two three pound buckets. There were few thousand volts going through the wires. But first I had to consume some mechanical energy filling the water tank.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 4:43 PM

Sounds very interesting. Please explain further.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 5:02 PM

It is this device over here:

http://web.cvcaroyals.org/~rheckathorn/documents/KelvinWaterDropGeneratorPhys13News-Mine.doc

http://academic.evergreen.edu/curricular/energy0405/students/waterdopr.ppt

Have fun sparking with water. really cool to watch when water charges heavily ans it gets pulverised like in a sprinkler.

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#31
In reply to #20

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 11:43 PM

This is a really fun thing to watch. Walter Lewin at MIT does a lecture, which is available on line, which demonstrates this effect.

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#22

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 5:01 PM

Hello Ken, I read "The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies" with great interest! You did an excellent job of bringing up points. However, starting in point #1 there was no citation or reference to where your facts came from or are coming from. To say to readers that they can just go read a physics, chemistry or other textbook does not suffice. Especially when one makes some very big overtures about being a scientist and/or engineer and about the pursuit of proper science and test procedure, you will note that in the "Scientific Method" which we are all taught as beginner scientists, documentation is of utmost importance. Since you claim to be a valid scientist/engineer then I would expect you to uphold that standard of scientific investigation and the commentary that applies regardless of whether or not you are pointing out the humor and/or fraudulence of claims made by those promoting HHO. I would also point out the EPA does tests of devices, which in this case are known as aftermarket retrofit devices, only when the developer of such a device requests that the EPA do an FTP test on the device. The developer must have first done his own FTP test which procedure needs to meet with EPA approval as part of their agreeing to test. EPA document: EPA420-B-00-003, May of 2000 states the full procedure for EPA testing and why and how it is initiated. The test facilities and offices for the EPA Device Evaluation Program, Office of Transportation and Air Quality are in Ann Arbor, Michigan and the phone number for the Device Evaluation program is 734-214-4925. If the EPA has done other tests on aftermarket retrofit devices of which I am not aware and of which I was not told when I called the EPA Office of Transportation and Air Quality Device Evaluation Program then I would surely like to know where you found the information. Furthermore, when you go to the web page for results of Motor Vehicle Aftermarket Retrofit Devices you will not find any HHO devices tested. You can check this at the following link http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/reports.htm. It is possible that I overlooked something in making this check. The reason Brown's Gas devices haven't been tested is probably because the minimum FTP, evaluation, and administration time services costs are a minimum of $27,000. The overall cost is at least doubled by the device developer having to run his or her own FTP test before the EPA will contract to run the FTP test at their facility. If everything there is to know about combustion was known there wouldn't be so many scientists and engineers working on the problem of doing it better and with less emissions. It is apparent that you left out comments about emissions. The whole issue of HHO intrigues me partly because of the passion it elicits for and against its use. I have done some testing to satisfy my own curiosity. Let me pose this question to you? Hypothetically, if you can increase the horsepower and torque of an engine by 10% or even 2%, did it take away all of that gain in horsepower and torque to turn the alternator to produce the electricity needed to generate the Brown's gas? Remember this: Einstein wasn't considered the best and brightest when he was in school! Those who lead in science often times consider things that even most other scientists would claim are not doable under their then current understanding of theory and practice. When we think we know everything there is to know about something there is a good chance that we don't! That also leads us to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. That principle is applying to what i should be trying to understand better right now instead of making these observations to you! I will leave you with another interesting anomaly about science and scientists. There have been significant numbers of times throughout history when what was considered to be good science at one time did not hold up generations down the line when we understood more about the total of all the variables and constants impacting a particular point of investigation and indeed were even able to identify all of the variables and constants at work in a given situation. In the education foundation that I work for, Advance America Foundation, that concept forms the basis of an education principle known as Optimization Through Total Environmental Awareness. The concept explanation is documented at the Library of Congress in 1989 or 1990. Looking forward to seeing more documentation and references from you in the future! I am always interested in learning. All the best, Steve

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 6:55 PM

Hello Steve. Next time please add a few paragraphs, spaces, indents etc. as it'll make your post much easier to read. Thanks Ffej

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 7:53 PM

Hello Ffej,

When I composed the original draft it had everything you are asking for or so I thought. It looked as if it did. When the composition went to the Preview stage everything got "glommed" together. I didn't have time to rework it. Sorry. First experience with the system.

I Will do better next time!

Since i know Garth is watching, I will say that calling for citations and references is not a small issue and a scientific review or commentary would never be published without them! Especially someone with his bi-line should be calling for proper referencing!

All the best,

Steve

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 10:38 PM

Really, what's your point?

There's a long history of HHO nonsense on this forum.

The problem is the lack of even the most basic understanding of scientific method. We have guys showing up & making completely unvalidated claims, trying to cite Utube videos as some sort of evidence.

The thread is just a consolidation of many posts, from several threads.

Did you read the other thread [link]? do some searches there is plenty of references.

Since i know Garth is watching, I will say that calling for citations and references is not a small issue and a scientific review or commentary would never be published without them! Especially someone with his bi-line should be calling for proper referencing!

yes We joke [see my signature]

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 6:57 PM

Here,s a link to the EPA document: http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/EPA_2_stage_requirments_fuel_additive_b00003.pdf

Looks straight forward.

Just like on the other HHO thread: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/22670?frmtrk=cr4sd#newcomments some drive by overunity guy [you] is trying to sound legitimate, picking around the edges of Ken's presentation, while ignoring reality.

$27k is a very small investment to make billions...

I don't see an actual question, or any sort of substansive problem with Ken's presentation. Do some searches on cr4 Ken has made various other more comprehensive presentations on this subject.....

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#32
In reply to #22

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 2:41 AM

Hi Steve,

Welcome aboard. I hope you enjoy your time spent here. You will finds loads of knowledgeable and helpful people in many areas, and will no doubt find many of the discussions to be interesting and entertaining.

My posts on CR4 are not, and are not intended to be, technical papers. If there is some interesting bit of trivia or background... or a reference which is particularly interesting or helps to clear up a misconception, I will supply a link, but otherwise I will rely on other responders in a thread to ask for further information when required.

In this thread, I am writing mainly summaries of things that I have written before, condensed a little or a lot, and collated into one location. I've written so much about HHO scams and perpetual motion schemes in CR4 threads, that 1. I am getting weary, 2. I find myself repeating myself, in answering questions that are slight variations on others, and 3. most of the "reasons" supplied by promoters for why their device improves mileage by 50% have already been presented here several times over. So the original post in this thread is simply a summary, to which I and others can refer people who make astonishing claims regarding the effects of HHO injection.

If I were making extraordinary claims here, then I would provide links to articles in peer-reviewed journals, etc., so that I don't come across as a nut case. However, there is nothing extraordinary here: suggesting that the laws of thermodynamics apply to the situation is any thing but an extraordinary claim. Suggesting that the catalytic converter window is within a percent of stoichiometric is also not an extraordinary claim, and can be found easily on line or in any good text on engine controls and fuel injection.

For contrast, this would be an extraordinary claim: Injecting H2 (from a bottle) into the intake air stream of a modern spark ignition engine increases power or reduces fuel consumption. The expectation would be that the H2 would displace air required for combustion, and that therefore the mixture would be too rich. If I made a claim for increased performance, then, I might want to supply some reference to show that there could be some unanticipated effect that would cause a performance improvement. Otherwise, I could come across as a crackpot to any knowledgeable group.

If I were claiming that HHO injection, in which the HHO is created by using the very fuel we are intending to save (and by a very inefficient process to boot) could improve fuel efficiency by 20%, that would also be an extraordinary claim. Then I would want to provide references from peer-reviewed journals, to avoid coming across as a crackpot. But I am making no such claims here. And even if I were, this a discussion forum, where there can be immediate feedback. If someone finds a claim outlandish, they can ask me about it. Foot-noting, bibliographies, etc are all unnecessary in a forum like this for items of common knowledge, and would make my already long posts even longer.

You mentioned I left out comments on emissions. These devices are not sold primarily for emissions reductions, and in fact many promoters actually suggest illegal tampering with the emission control system because they claim the devices cannot work correctly (to improve fuel economy) without such tampering.

You seem to think I claimed that the EPA tested an HHO unit. I am not aware of any HHO unit having been tested by the EPA, and would love to see the results if they had. As you know, the EPA has tested many "fuel mileage improvement" devices, and the only ones that have had a measurable positive effect are those that would be expected to do so based on ordinary engineering principals.

The Hydro 4000 people took in $1,000,000 in just two months with the help of WPTV. $27,000 is easily manageable by such a company. Imagine the credibility an EPA test would add --they could advertise their units as the only HHO devices shown to work in an objective third party test. That would be worth far more than $27,000, and in fact would be cheap at $1,000,000.

If there are specific areas in which you'd like more detail, just let me know. However, if you believe the laws of thermodynamics are outmoded, then I think changing your thinking is more of a task than I can undertake. You seem to think that there is perhaps some evolving science here. There is not. The units made today are nearly perfect replicas of the device described in the 1918 Frazier patent.

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 4:46 AM

Well done.

GA too..

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 6:01 AM

Hi Ken

Another Great post...and GA!

I enjoy reading your comments. Always well stated and informative.

Thanks for the links too.

Jeff

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 8:30 AM

And a 4th GA fom me. Well spoken.

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#82
In reply to #32

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/24/2009 12:25 PM

Hello Ken,

Thanks for the welcome! I certainly appreciate the time you have put in addressing the claims of the charlatans, frauds, hackers, and those with a disregard for the sciences in which they are dealing. I am with you 100% on the laws of thermodyanmics.

My point with the application of the principle of Optimization Through Total Environmental Awareness to the endeavor of applying HHO to ICEs is whether or not everyone at CR4 and elsewhere is certain that something has not been overlooked. Is everyone certain that absolutely every variable and every relationship has been accounted for.

It appears that a few other members of CR4 are quick to apply the Over Unity tag on somebody to automatically discredit that person and any point that they might try to make. It seems as though it is used like a cross to repel vampires. A nuclear bomb releases more energy than the implosion energy needed to set one off otherwise such bombs would never have been made. I don't think there were cries of over unity being made there.

I notice from your writing that you have a very studied approach and are very circumspect. You and I will disagree on the citing of sources and references, but I believe that even in a forum it should still be done. It is proper to site a source even in conversation regardless of the scale of the claim. It is always proper for people whom you are addressing to know where your facts come from, including and especially if you are the source. People can argue opinions all day long, but what are the facts. If you claim that something is a "Flat Lie" cite the fact that proves it! What may be obvious to you and me may not be so obvious to someone else.

Once you have a file of sources and citations just copy them into the piece you put on CR4. I know its extra work, but you seem to care enough to do it and in the spirit of learning and education promoted on CR4, it would be a good thing. I am not asking for full perfect bibliographies.

Quote from "The Unlucky Thirteen", "Elsewhere on this site I've written loads of posts about HHO, some going into considerable detail re the thermodynamics and combustion science involved. Generally, there is no way of knowing if some of the people arguing (on CR4) that HHO boosters work are scammers or only deluded, ignorant of the issues involved, insane, or incapable of designing a valid test. (This last is not a good excuse, because the EPA has been doing tests of such devices for years, and they can do a valid test for you -- or if you read their reports, you can see what is required.)". I believe that you at least clearly implied and that I correctly inferred that the EPA has tested HHO devices. In your response to me you say that my inference is wrong. Should I call that a Flat Lie! Only kidding Ken, only kidding! However, it is seems to be clear that you were talking about HHO units.

With respect to the EPA, their fee is a minimum of $27,000 and for the types of tests required the EPA fees would likely be higher. The second point here is that they require you to do the tests (third party) before they will do your test request. That means that the test will cost just as much (probably) before you go to the EPA. The total minimum cost is going to be at least in the neighborhood of $55,000. My experiences show that scammers don't part with their money. They aren't going to invest in something that sheds real light on what they are doing and risk losing the money. Will there be somebody that can afford the tests? Someday there will be.

For the legit people who think that they really have something and are trying to prove it, $55,000 is a lot of money. In my experience it is a lot of money even for people that have money.

Car companies have pretty much committed to end game strategies of hydrogen fuel cell cars and plug in vehicles or some PV variation. They would not really be interested in pursuing other things since their investment commitments have already been made in other technologies. BMW is one of the few going with pure hydrogen in a ICE, but I really doubt that will pay off for them.

I am way out of time, but I would have to agree there is no new science here and all to often the scammers apply, as you rightly say, "anti-science"

Sorry it took a while to get back to you, but I work sixteen to twenty hours a day and usually six or seven days a week.

Have a great day!

Steve

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#160
In reply to #82

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 4:35 PM

For the legit people who think that they really have something and are trying to prove it, $55,000 is a lot of money. In my experience it is a lot of money even for people that have money.

The solution probably to start incrementally. Many states have dynamometers in many locations (there are at least two I can walk to). The ScanGauge2 can be made to be very accurate, as long as one does not muck with its inputs. There are all sorts of possibilities for inexpensive testing which can be then used to round up funds for additional testing. Many companies have been funded for millions based on only the sketchiest of testing (think EEstor).

I note that you do not mention here that you are in the HHO business yourself. How are your own tests going?

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#119
In reply to #32

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 6:50 AM

Ken, I too get tired of all of this. You have excited puppies discovering the concept of free energy, lacking the science to appreciate its impossibility and refusing to accept it because the promise is so alluring - and as I have said before a believer cannot reason. http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=3477#more-3477 it would be nice to see the equivalent of this for these HHO people.

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#33
In reply to #22

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 4:35 AM

I disagree with most of your diatribe, you are simply "overcooking" the problem......

Firstly Ken has demonstrated for some years now, a much better concept of "how things work", combined with a "feet firmly on the ground" attitude than many others of us here on CR4, I even include myself......from time to time at least....!

Secondly, what he wrote fits in with my personal understanding, "hand in glove" so to say. So its not rubbish that he wrote......nor is it necessary to (over)do what you suggested.

You are at least not a guest (thank God!), but you do not tell us much about yourself, or where you are in the world, which means you have something to hide for some reasons of your own personal choice......whereas "our Ken" is fully open on all accounts.....so who would you believe if you were me????

Sorry Steve, you need to think more often "outside the box"......and get a history as good as Ken's......

Oh, by the way, even Ken will tell you that he and I do not always agree on everything, wouldn't life be boring if we did?

Have a great day in spite of me.

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#24

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 5:10 PM

Applause for Ken's post!!!

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#25

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/22/2009 6:36 PM

Ken, how about sending a reply, that way we can all send you a few well deserved GAs

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#43

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 12:07 PM

I have efficiency ratings in tests above 8MMW, and I also have a working system for hydrogen and oxygen. I also have applied for patent as you suggested. You also suggest that HHO is a lie and the people who pass it off as anything BUT a lie are also liars and cheats. If I offer proof you will call it a lie unless I install one for free on your car. I have installed several systems that achieve 25-50% fuel mileage improvement. My systems operate between 3 and 15 amps. I am not here to exclaim "I am breaking laws of physics." I am only representing the industry. You can stay closed in your little comfortable bubble or you can open that fleshy thing inside your skull and study and replicate like your supposed to before you spout about something not working. As far as unreasonable and erroneous statements by some people in the technology goes, most of them had achieved the results they claim, but most were unable to duplicate it easilly or repeatedly. There are a multitude of ways to do this wrong, but only a few ways of making it work right. I am capable of replicating my results above 25% consistently with hydrogen and oxygen gas and some controls for oxygen and map sensors. I can turn the system off and run on factory settings. I can turn the system on anytime while driving and test mileage. I have testing confirming these results on a closed course. There is nothing hard about improving efficiency of gas engines. Gasoline engines are wasteful for lots of reasons. You can watch my videos and see that I have achieved 98% fuel economy increases from a 12hp generator modified with fuel vaporizer. Some of the increase came from the modified exhaust and some was from magnetism the rest was from the heating and vaporization of the fuel. My generator can be easilly replicated by watching my videos at onecraftydude on youtube. Look for GEET vaporizer build and testing. The first tests were published there and more testing has been performed since that identifying where all of the results were achieved. How about testing my setup and then calling me a liar?

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 12:17 PM

How about you get it tested by a legitimate, reputable agency and have them send us the results?

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#45
In reply to #43

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 12:24 PM

If even 1% of what you say was true, you would not be posting here as a guest and arguing with us, trying to blind us with your "science", you would be selling your invention to the highest bidder and retiring to a tropical island for the rest of your life!!

Its nice to be amused from time to time by people such as yourself......but take my advice, you should look in the mirror occasionally and then you might see where you are going wrong, "might" being a big word here!!!

Your YouTube video I could not see for some reason, blocked by YouTube maybe? Either unblock it or forget it.....its useless, like your ideas I feel......

CR4 members are the hardest to convince in this world.......there are far easier suckers elsewhere.....go find them and practise.

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#75
In reply to #45

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 8:13 PM

It is "PRACTICE" and I have done plenty of practicing. I only submitted one reply as a guest because I could not wait for the e-mail to sign in as a new user before I replied. I am not trying to blind anyone with science, lol. I do not claim to know anything about "SCIENCE". I only know what my testing has shown from experimentation I have done and from installations on other customer vehicles. I could have them write a post here, but you would say I made it up etc. I am not here to sell anything only to prove that the technology is sound. Vaporization, magnetism and hydrogen all show results in my tests. All of my tests are posted for review and replication for the tech savvy experimenter. Feel free to call me names and attack my intellectual abilities and character, I think that is what you are here for. It is nice to say "I am smarter than you because I know methodology" etc. My testing is simple: I fill up the tank and drive with and without hydrogen and compare the tests. The generator is easier because I dont have to take it on the road to test it.

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#77
In reply to #75

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 9:12 PM

Dear onecraftydude,

I don't know if you have ever seen the Canadian television show "The Dragon's Den", where a group of billionaire angel investors review business presentations, vying for their investment dollars? They are very tough on inventors, and thoroughly question all aspects of the business application, and technologies. So, from that point of view, here is a list of questions you might face when presenting your technology to investors. I'm sure that there are many more, as I'm not an investor, but it is a start. I would be interested in hearing your answers, and when you are done, you will be able to use this information and approach to help craft your documentation. I have put no bias on these questions different than a serious investor would ask. I know you have already answered a few of these questions, so just reiterate them. and please, no acrimony.

1. What is your intention with the development of this technology?

2. Are your results written down, recorded, and reviewed by competent persons?

3. Is the exact equipment list written down?

4. Are the basic settings, and configurations of the equipment noted at the time of record taking?

5. Are the units of time, distance, and weather noted with your experiments?

6. Did you travel the same route each test, so as to negate the hills in the fuel usage calculation?

7. Do you think this technology is able to be mass produced?

8. What other factors might account for the change in fuel consumption?

9. How much money do you need to make a business from this technology, from investors?

10. Is there a provisional patent in place? If so, what is the number?

11. What length of time will be required to earn a return on investment, and what rate are you thinking of?

12. How much control of the business are you willing to give up in order to gain the investment dollars?

13. Who are the customers?

14. Do you have any sales, promotional, or press release documentation developed to present this technology to the public?

15. Do you have any partners in this venture?

16. What is the name of your corporation?

18. Are you the sole representative of your company?

19. Do you have liability insurance?

20. How long will it take to bring this product and its large scale manufacture to maturity and profitability?

21. Assuming the provision of funding for development, are you willing to have this technology reviewed and proven at a level sufficient to satisfy all inquiries. Either it works or it doesn't.

22. What fuel mileage improvement numbers (% and extra miles) are you finding with your tests?

23. What is the cost of materials to implement this system currently, and how much do you expect the installation cost to decrease by being mass produced?

24. Are there any custom devices in the system? (such as the stainless cannister?)

25. Did you test the fuel quality to ensure that it was consistent throughout the testing, or did you set aside a quantity of fuel for usage, to ensure that the same fuel performance characteristics would be had from using the same fuel each time?

26. Do your support group of drivers follow standard and controlled testing procedures?

27. Did you thorougly test, rate, and document the performance of all engines prior to testing with the new system?

28. Is the technology limited to 4 stroke gasoline engines only, or can it be transferred to 2 stroke gas, diesel, aircraft or marine engines?

29. Are there any products of combustion with this technology that might make the exhaust more harmful than the gas alone?

30. What other risks might an investor face if they invest in this technology?

31. How many other investors are already prepared to invest, based on conclusive testing to national standards?

32. What do you think will be the automotive industry's response to the large scale implementation of this technology. Do you think that they might embrace this technology, and permit investors to reap significant returns based on the scale of their market share in the automotive industry?

33. Have you approached any engine/automotive manufacturer with this technology and shown them your results? If so, what was their response?

34. Have you assistance for qualified persons in IC engines, to back up your claims, such as a university professor, or even auto mechanic?

35. What is your technical background? What are other experiences and trainings on your resumé? What is your engine experience and training? What is your business background? What kind of business partner would you be? Have you successfully operated a business before?

36. Have you ever been charged or convicted of fraud, or any other business related criminal activity?

Chris

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#78
In reply to #77

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 10:59 PM

Very nice list Chris. I hope he considers using it.

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#79
In reply to #77

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/23/2009 11:07 PM

Wow Chris great post. I think you summed up the reasons why I am so acrimonious. I thought the hard part was perfecting the invention, I had no idea that i needed to be a business mogul. I admit my naivete' in these matters and that is why I was willing to give up 50% of my inventions to the investors I am working with right now. I am more interested in perfecting the technology than dealing with investors which is just another one of my faults. I doubt I would do well on the show you described unless all I had to answer were questions about the technology. I will try and give you a brief summary of each question:

1. my intention is to research and develop hydrogen and other technologies which are proven to work and manufacture and distribute those devices to industry and the public after sufficient trials and testing for safety and durability.

2. I keep a log of testing on the generator which goes back one year in different configurations with all variables included such as temperature, voltage, amp draw or other variables being tested.

3. I have involved an engineer friend in the testing of my devices and used his input to set up the testing.

4. Exact equipment is cheap wal-mart voltage gauge amp gauge and timer due to budgetary constraints.

5. Units of time distance and weather are recorded in hydrogen testing during road tests. All road tests are performed with a baseline test prior to and after testing hydrogen. Some of the testing does not include temperature variable.

6. I always use a flat highway for testing and run equal tests in both directions with and without hydrogen, etc. My results are disregarded if within a 10% error. I will only depend on results over 10% to be sufficient for noting an increase otherwise it will be listed as unchanged within tolerance of my testing abilities currently.

7. My hydrogen cell is very easy to mass produce.

8. Other variables effect fuel consumption such as air temperature,water vapor density or even an exhaust restriction. Only one of those things will benefit fuel economy and that one I have not tested extensively so I leave it out of the equation and do testing when the air is dry.

9. I would need smarter people than I to figure out how much money it will cost to get this system in place. I think a comparison can be made to any new product as far as setting up production and testing etc.

10. Yes I have submitted the provisional patent #61155846

11. Time for return on investment depends on acceptance and implementation of devices after testing and certification.

12. 50%

13. Initially customers will be fleet vehicles and individuals. Later the biggest industry will be diesel engines. I have not done testing in this area yet so I have no results to offer as to results with diesel engines at this time.

14. I have a web site and list items for sale along with complete systems and I demonstrate my products at all trade shows involving this technology.

15. I have signed an MOU with another company, but the final contract has not been signed nor has any money traded hands. So right now I have NO partners.

16. Hydra-Tek

17.

18. yes I am

19. no

20. I think you already said this earlier, but it depends on length of time for implementation into industry and acceptance by customers as well as safety certification.

21. Of course I am willing to have it reviewed.

22. Generally tests show between 15 and 40%. Average increase is about 25%. Tests are always performed on 4 lane flat highway in midday with dry air between 60 and 90 degrees Fahrenheit unless otherwise noted.

23. Right now the cost of machining end caps is the biggest expense so having injection molding for these parts will reduce the cost of manufacture significantly as will the cost of stainless tubing bought in bulk. As it stands right now manufacturing cost is 1/3 the price of a system. Installation is priced by the installer but is generally between 150 and 200 dollars.

24. The hydrogen cell is custom and the control device for O2 and map sensor is ever evolving.

25. I use the same pump gas when I can for testing.

26. My group of drivers differ in their driving habits. The test results I get from them are an average when they fill up the tank. That generally includes some city and highway mileage and varied acceleration levels and conditions.

27. I have not tested engines other than the one I own or drive prior to installation of hydrogen. I rely on the person who drives the vehicle to relay their test results to me for verification that their system is working properly. Results vary depending on vehicle type, amount of gas being introduced, codes, driver and more than I care to mention here.

28. The technology is not limited to gasoline engines, but I have no testing to verify results on anything else at this time.

29. Testing on exhaust emissions is one of the first items on my "TO DO" list. When I have access to proper testing equipment I will have answers on that.

30. Risk can come in many forms in this technology. I don't advise anyone to take up this technology as an investment unless you feel strongly about a product you have found to work for "YOU" personally. I would think that any potential investor would want to try a system out before deciding about the risk.

31. I don't have any other investors yet.

32. the auto giants will hate it, but their customers will love it.

33. Auto industry will not accept "SPAM" such as hydrogen generators. My e-mails go unanswered.

34. Find me a professor who is a good mechanic.

35. I am a high school graduate, have an associate degree from St. John's River C. C.

and 1 credit from BS at St. Leo U. My technical training comes from military schooling. I have a background in optics, electronics, machining, troubleshooting, controlled work procedures, testing, quality assurance, training, safety, collimation, antenna systems, calibration, optical alignment, toolmaking and other stuff. My mechanical ability has been a lifelong learning process, but I have been a mechanic several times either working for others in a shop or my own shop. I have successfully operated a business before.

36. Never been charged or convicted of any crime.

I want to thank you for taking the time to write all those questions out for me. It took a lot of time to write all the answers. What I find is that after I answer questions it just brings up more questions. I wish finding an investor for this was easy. Your help with some questions I might encounter is very insightful and I appreciate your help.

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#109
In reply to #79

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 5:38 PM

If I were the investor, I would really need to see some straightforward tabular data on the testing. It does not need to be comprehensive, but it needs to be reliable data that shows a clear result. If you were investing in someone else's ideas, would you not want to see this?? It stands to reason that if you have accomplish the results you are claiming, you should be very interested in helping to conquer the abundance of scammers out there, who would actually be undermining your legitimate business, and as you know, nothing speaks like results. can you please apply the golden rule, and do what you would expect of any other experimenter, and publish some results with the claims. Otherwise, no investor will be attracted. I've just whipped together a quick table, and there are many more people here who can do a much better job of this than I. My table is just for concept.

Chris.

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#112
In reply to #109

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 6:20 PM

Thank you for doing that. I had to make a table the other day and had to use a free trial program so the printed version has a watermark over the data, lol. My cell uses less than 1 quart of water per thousand miles so I don't bother measuring the amount consumed. I realize these things seem insignificant to me and that is why I overlook them in testing and documentation. I am glad to have your help in formulating proper test procedures for verification of results. I plan to use the information gained here to do proper testing and documentation. If it pleases you to help further please allow me to use your ideas and submit a test here for your consideration. If there seems to be a factor that needs to be added to the testing I will do it as long as it is within my capability. The more evidence I have presented in a professional form based in scientific method the better.

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#113
In reply to #112

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 6:37 PM

agreed, and yes I will help, free of charge. only have a couple of hours a week, but spreadsheets of this type are part of what I do. just be aware, I do not have the credentials to assess your technology professionally, or critique the scientific facts. This is generic standard procedure, and oddly, I enjoy that. you can email me at chrisg288. If you need me to sign an NDA.. no problem.

Chris.

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#121
In reply to #113

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/26/2009 7:11 AM

Thank you for making the offer. I would appreciate some of the experts' input as to a new graph for test data. If any of you experts who are asking for results would offer up a concise test format for Chris to make into a test sheet I would be more than happy to perform all testing within my capability. I will post that data here for the experts examination.

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#114
In reply to #112

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/25/2009 8:31 PM

If you don't have a full version of windows.

Open office: http://openoffice-software.com/new/home/?affebnid=124&gid=&ovid=&yid=&msid=&hop=howgood is free & will allow you to create & open spreadsheets in word format.

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#149
In reply to #114

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

03/27/2009 12:16 AM

Thank you for the link Garth. I just had my computer overhauled and I got no add-ons for office or any other useful tools.

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#235
In reply to #75

Re: The Unlucky 13 HHO Lies

05/23/2009 5:23 AM

Hi, I agree with you. Keep up the good work. The negative people have not experimented enough or have given up cause they have done it the wrong and have given up, and now are totally negative on the subject. They throw science at you, and I agree one cannot get past the proven laws of science, one has to encompass them and use them to your advantage. Sometimes the whole formula changes just by adding one more principal to the ones you are using, resulting in a completely different outcome. I don't care what the negative people say about HHO. I have built a device after a hell of a lot of experimenting over the last two years, and have the the following results. 400Watt input, with using the pressure of the HHO to displace water, a flow rate of 18ml/sec. Tests done 5 months ago on a Hoffman diesel 16Kw diesel generator, with a 12Kw load, at that time I only had a flow rate of 7.8ml/sec. The result was 96.2%. This is not a claim but fact. As far as, Yes if this if this is true go and get it tested for $55,000. Not all of us are Rokkerfella, and to get investors is not easy, no thanks to the negative people. Anyway good luck, and God bless. additive. an

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