Guests as Trolls

Well, there's a lesson for ya........when pissed it's best to use ordinary insults instead of derogatory ones............

B'sides, some of the old, decrepid codgers on this platform can give as good as they can take (Transcendian said that).......^{_{most of the membership comes to mind}}

Hi e,

Glad to have you back. If you really want to be put down, try the physics forums!

"It occurred to me recently that I could report my own post and request the Admins pull it before any more damage is done"

Yes, I think I did that once or twice. The other change in recent months is the GA. I think we have lost good people who quit because they got no GAs and got discouraged. I find that to be a shame. This has changed to whole 'feel' of the forum.

-S

"Glad to have you back."

Thanks!

"If you really want to be put down, try the physics forums!"

I do that from time to time. Mostly to indulge my Inner Masochist.

StandardsGuy,

I think we have lost good people who quit because they got no GAs and got discouraged. - were you serious when you wrote that? I really do not understand why anyone would think that GAs are important. Surely there are more important things in life than a GA on CR4.

YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOO RIGHT!

"were you serious when you wrote that? I really do not understand why anyone would think that GAs are important."

Yes, I was. There were two in particular that added much to conversations that I was involved in. Perhaps they thought the GAs were like an IQ rating. There was another group that voted each other GA just to accumulate them. When someone voted 'off topic' and their number dropped, they left. We are better off without that bunch. This all is my opinion, so don't ask me to prove it.

StandardsGuy,

This all is my opinion, so don't ask me to prove it. - no problem, I was genuinely wondering if you were serious or not. It would not occur to me to leave just because I did not get a GA.

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

HoleInTheSnow writes: "Surely there are more important things in life than a GA on CR4."

Apparently Starbucks thinks so. Just this morning I dropped my 61 GAs on the counter and ordered two Latté Grandes. They still charged me $3.70.

europium,

That is not good news. I will get sh1t all for my 7 GA's. Looks like I will have to keep working.

You may be right that some people have left because they never got a GA, but I hope that you are wrong......as getting a GA is really a bonus, not the reason to be posting.....

I give a GA to anyone with a (to my mind) a good comment, especially if its funny.....I have even been accused of being "too free" with my GAs.......

As far as I am ware, there are no set rules as to who gets a GA, and I agree with that.....

If they left because they did not get one, then they were not bringing much to the table as I am not alone in being relatively free with GAs......there are many of "us" here......

Have a great day anyway.....I feel upon reflection, that you made a good point and also deserve a GA.....

I give a GA to anyone with a (to my mind) a good comment, especially if its funny.....I have even been accused of being "too free" with my GAs.......

You see i find nothing wrong with this type of attitude. I too give GA's for humor especially that in the right context. Dell has gotten many from me for just this reason. As have you Andy.

The issues with GA's as I see it is that those who are really after them are just looking for a badge of honor. I could care less if I receive them or not but it is nice to get recognition from your peers.

When I give them out however it's not because I think your a cool guy, it's because I feel your have truly given an answer that has merit and or humor. I sometimes announce that I have given it the the poster to let them know that it was I that gave it. Not that it is any more of a boost to their ego to have that knowledge, but I think it does give my fellow members a bit more insight to my own personality.

You can choose to continue to give me GA's or not. Matters not to me, I will still however continue to follow my own path and present them to those I feel deserve it Much like the one I am giving Andy for his post above.

My take on GAs is that if one feels that an answer is truly a good answer, then mark it as such regardless of the source. Good answers are good answers, period. Taking it any further and it becomes a personality contest. It is this practice, more than anything else, that dilutes the value of a GA, IMHO.

If I am understanding you correctly then we basically agree.

The GA never had any value...compared to the thread rating and the on topic classification.

"lost good people who quit because they got no GAs and got discouraged"

I too was not aware we were supposed to be keeping score, but then I'm not an answerer I'm a questioner. How about awarding GQs?

People can vote threads that post questions or discussion by giving them a Star Rating. I think that might be an effective way to distinguish threads that post good/thoughtful questions to threads that are mediocre or less then mediocre questions.

I enjoyed my time on CR4 while a registered user.

However, after an argument with another registered user caused me to report him, I was banned from the site for life (he quit on his own).

For a while I could post as a guest. But then my most often used ip addresses were blocked.

While initially offended by all of this (particularly when one hot-headed CR4 Administrator revealled my real name as punishment), I soon came to realize that it was better for me just to take the high road.

I have found other sites that offer a more positive interactive experience and I tend to go to these now.

I still read CR4 from time to time.

The whole banishment process is a bit like Brave new world [or was it 1984?] the banished would become unpersons, all traces & records relegated to the dust bin

Anyone remember IE tech 5?

There were also nearly as many victims of hydrogen threads as the Hindenburg.

I hope mentioning unpersons, doesn't earn me the same fate

I have found other sites that offer a more positive interactive experience and I tend to go to these now.

Any hints as to the location of utopia.........

Over time I have fallen into Apothicus' categories one and two (hopefully never 3) and Emporium's (welcome back by the way) categories 4 and 5 at different times and mainly for the reasons stated.

Guest, I have given you a GA because I think it is an answer worth reading. I know that a great many of the established members on this site believe that a guest should not be given a GA, but for the life of me can not understand why not. Surely a GA is to indicate that the post is worthy of note, not for the personal aggrandisement of a cyber "friend". Some of the absolute drivel that is given GA's makes me wonder...

Just another pet irritation is the need of some of our long time members to post "GA from me" as if this statement adds anything to the discussion. (The irony of this statement baring in mind the previous paragraph does not escape me).

I think you can guess which category of guest I am today - no?

"Guest",

Good post.

May I ask why you have not signed in when posting this comment? Do you fear that you will never get a GA again .

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

Guest,

I agree completely with you. I have noticed the same behaviour and have commented on this. I have made reference to the "old boys club" that exists on this site (However having said that, I am sure that there are old boys clubs on other sites). I particularly like the reference to the "know-it alls".

Personally I would not let this clique drive me away from this site. You should register and that way we can see if we can break the mould.

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

"Guest" Wrote: I have posted some questions and received good or helpful answers and even (I hope) helped others.

That's all I do, and hope in some way to contribute - that's all anybody can do...

As for any GA's....meh

Welcome Back.

I think anyone can have a bad hair day.

"There are provincials here who simply cannot tolerate any worldview other than their own and who seem to actually enjoy launching vicious personal attacks on those having a radically different take on things. It's provincialism in its worst form."

Having been subjected to such an attack, my only recourse was to bow out as gracefully as possible. What was I to gain? Those who heard me responded positively, those who left an open mind contributed to the discussion, despite a few good natured jabs. When the reactionary finally got my goat, instead of responding to him, I sent a private e-mail to one of the other members of the thread. This was not in support of my hypothesise, but as a reality check. He followed my rant, but allowed that even recalcitrants had their say here. I am grateful that cooler heads prevail here, and that CR4 is as civilized as it is.

Thanks, Tippy

To CR4 contributors,

As being the reason one of the threads being closed down, I do apologize for it,

And should have shown some restraint, there is no excuse for my actions.

I am glad that there was some help offered to OP.

I am sorry....and ashamed.

phoenix911

10-4

I don't believe I saw it.

I do not think it could have been that bad.

You are forgiven from 3 of the best people I know.... (at least from me, myself and I)

Don't beat yourself up dude. Confession is good for the soul, flagellation only makes you more angry. I am totally surprised that as a nincompoop, I ever got a GA. I had one of my posts yanked as well. Couple others downgraded.

So what? We are all discerning individuals. Most of us are scientists of one form or another. Some of us are Mystics ^{_{(non-exclusionary disclaimer here)}} and the rest are just curious. So we thrash the wheat from the chaff.

"Sometimes the bear eats you"

As a new moderator for CR4, I would like to encourage everyone to respond in a manner that keeps the most people coming back. We are talking about many different cultures and backgrounds here, and in cyberland it is easy to misinterpret tone and sarcasm, so this will always be a work in progress.

This site will be the strongest when it is fueled by a multitude of knowledge bases and opinions. I will do my best, as a new mod, to be on top of any issues that you readers report, be it member or non-member.

And while I like to see all guests eventually join our community as official members, there is no requirement that they do so. It is nice to be able to respond to someone and have an idea as to who you are talking to, especially over time, because it builds both a history or relationship and then an actual community. That being said, if people want to take CR4 out for a test drive as a guest, why should we reject it?

If you see SPAM or inappropriate content, report it. If you don't like to see off-topic material, change your settings. If you don't like reading guest responses, scroll past them. I enjoy CR4 as a non-engineer because of how little there is a infantile material as there often in other venues I visit and that different parts of the site cater to different levels of knowledge and types of backgrounds.

I saddens me to read some of the contempt for CR4 in this thread. I only ask that you help be part of the solution. Phoenix, I have always enjoyed your comments and thanks for the heart felt remorse. No one is perfect all the time, myself whole-heartedly included.

You don't walk into Utopia. There are no directions on how to get there. You have to build and maintain it everyday.

I am at your disposal.

ShakespeareTheEngineer,

"I saddens me to read some of the contempt for CR4 in this thread" - I have not read all of the posts (most, but not all) and I have to disagree with you on this point. Because someone has a different opionion/ issue and brings it up in an honest way then I would not see this as contempt - you seem to be mixing up contempt and complaint. The problem with these types of threads is that we are all expected to say how great CR4 is and not mention the things that bug us on CR4 (personally I have more important things to bug me than CR4 comments, but since we are discussing CR4 then I think this is relevant). Unfortunately for you, I am of the opinion that CR4 will be a much better place when we start being honest and not pandering to those who hold the power or those who are here the longest. (I am not sure if others hold this opinion aswell). If this is an issue or it does not fit in with the CR4 vision (ok it looks like I have been reading my "How to become a manager" book ) then please let me know and I will bow out of CR4 life.

There are possibly better sites out there but I have not been able to find them and I choose to register and share my opinions on CR4 (Yes I have some issues with some of the comments and on how CR4 is moderated but in the whole I find it an excellent resource and it is often entertaining so I would not change to another).

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

I personally have never read any comments hitting on CR4 itself......I would guess that they are few and far between....

For example:- I have followed discussions with and about guests, sometimes guests have more than one opinion on the same subject (funny) and I have tried to think of better ways to do things here, but my conclusion is, and was that its about as good as it gets....Changing anything that I have thought of (no guests for example) would probably negatively affect the way CR4 runs, even though I am NOT a fan of some/all of the guests we get.....

I am actually very happy generally with the way admin runs things, nothing is perfect but not having ANY constructive critic from me (I do think about some points, but end up not suggesting anything, is just because it is already fairly well tuned up I feel).......for each and every suggestion/thought for changes, I see negative aspects....enough to say, "don't change...."

No I am not paid in any shape or form by CR4 admin!!!......

I feel that they do a difficult job as well as possible..........I do not envy any single one of them in the slightest.....

Please just let CR4 continue in its own way, just as it is now.....its a good blend of everything that I personally really like........even if I (and some others) do lose my/our rag with some obtuse guests occasionally........

When someone takes a stand on an issue that you believe is not correct, that you challenge it.

I have challenged and have been challenged and four possibilities come out

1.) to realize that my information and stance was not correct.

2.) the issue has some unresolved to it, and no one is not quite correct

3.) The opponent realize their stance was not correct

4.) One proponent was talking loose and returns with misdirection from his stance.

At times this come to a debate, and I can give an example but it will distract from this thread.

How interesting would it be if the debate was held without passion, and the delivery was put so that it may not hurt anyone feelings. It would get to be a very long drawn out lecture. All because one makes it that we are all too sensitive. (Maybe some need to take sensitivity lessons)

One can get dragged down into the muck, Its realizing it as it happening before it gets to far.

One thing that I try to avoid, is not bring the lot down like a pack of wolves. And when it does get out of hand, we police ourselves and one of the things that makes this site work, is because it has facilitators that work.

The other thing is, "Can't we all get along?"

The answer to that is "no." and that makes this site work. We can't because the issues are in a dynamic motion. views are taken from different perspectives.

And these views can be presented here, but since those views are brought up, it should be challenged.

phoenix911

You wrote:-

....but since those views are brought up....

How about "regurgitated" as a replacement for "brought up?"

phoenix911,

The other thing is, "Can't we all get along?" - I am very glad that you said no to this. Imagine how boring would it would be if everyone agreed on everything . If that was the case then there would be no need for CR4. It is the very fact that we can express our opinions that makes this site work.

Sometimes I find it difficult even to agree with some of the stuff that I have written in the past .

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

You wrote:-

Sometimes I find it difficult even to agree with some of the stuff that I have written in the past

.

I could not agree more, we also have problems with some of your stuff from the past Mr MoleintheSnow.......!!!

Andy Germany (see I did not misspell your name),

"we also have problems with some of your stuff.." - who are the we that you are referring to? Perhaps its the old boys club (oh darn, there I go again I wonder if I will regret this anytime soon).

Kind Regards (really!)

Mr. W.A Snow

this is we.

I was joking, really!!!

Andy Germany,

I was joking, really!!! - unlike the other people on this site, we never disagree, argue or call each other names - really .

Of course not!!!

It is one thing to debate an issue and quite another to attack one's opponent. Healthy debate is essential to the exchange, refinement and progress of ideas. Even a heated debate is not necessarily an attack provided the focus remains on the issue at hand.

But once an attack is launched the debate quickly degenerates into a clash of personalities and that becomes the issue; the original issue is sidelined and all forward progress ceases.

And I think that is where a moderator needs to come in and cool things down. Moderators are not just agents of a police state. They arbitrate between disagreeing parties while keeping the environment civil or professional.

If someone has an issue with what someone has said, I would hope they could handle it as two reasonable adults. If it transcends that, however, that is one of the reasons why the Mods are here. It just takes dispute resolution to the next level and hopefully allows a non-partial party to de-escalate in the event that the original users cannot do it themselves.

Ideally, at least...

Exactly.

It is one thing to debate an issue and quite another to attack one's opponent.

What we have to understand here is that (whether you like or not) all of us have the egos and that is the aspect that glares at us here.

The attack on a viewpoint becomes the attack on personality. And that is where the moderators have to come in picture.

Just for an example- there is a comment I have made and that is not necessarily true and there are condition on which it will not be applicable.

The responder points out those points and not just the loop-holes but as if my statement is totally off.

I respond by cutting him into small pieces and he comes out with his bare sword and the duel is on.

What we have to do is to act as the police. try to calm things over and report on the first sign of bitterness. The report is not to attack the member/guest, but so that the moderator removes the offending post(s), may be puts one of his posts to calm things down and the thread goes on un-interrupted, rather than killing the thread itself.

The friction and ego clashes will be there and that can neither be stopped nor that will stop others from enjoying site.

Only moderator can censor a bit here and there and finally have a thread

"Dear Mary

I yearn for you tragically

A. T. Tappman, Chaplain, U. S. Army "

I'm trying real hard to not to attack, or just lash out at this guy: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/40690

But he's making it real difficult.

the hypocrisy of Greener than thou types gets under my skin...

We all have these triggers, that just make us go a little crazy

Which user in particular? Several seem fired up. The original poster seemed sincere in asking for help in trying to get his self-funded project to work.

You did a good job of helping, he does not want to be helped by real verifiable facts, he is just a dreamer.......the world is full of them!!!

Okay....I see where it came to a head towards the bottom...

Go on, just 'it 'im ...

europium:

Without getting too distracted with more links I'll use the example.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/40997

Guest #5 and #15, is this even the same person or a member. You or I do not know that. Does the exchange project a bad image, yes. But it is handled by different levels now isn't it. First level being off-topic.

Have you ever been called an idiot, (or on terms of an idiot)?

And what did you do about it?

Prove him wrong, give up your convictions and go with the crowd, or walk away.

Each action above has a consequence.

And of course debates is a clash of personalties, If you believe your right.

Healthy debate is essential to the exchange, refinement and progress of ideas. Even a heated debate is not necessarily an attack provided the focus remains on the issue at hand.

And posts can get on a tangent and often has, and IMO that is not unacceptable, but should be addressed at the time in off topic.

That is why we have off topic. The only problem with off-topic I see, is after you post, you can not change it to off-topic if you missed it prior to sending.

phoenix911

but isn't that also what the "REPORT" button is for? so that when someone becomes offensive, you notify admin, and they will remove the offensive post(s) or obviously, close the post. too bad they don't have a button to make the *^$))$'s apologize for their rudeness!

Chris

but isn't that also what the "REPORT" button is for?

Thats another level by my earlier statement below

"But it is handled by different levels now isn't it. "

too bad they don't have a button to make the *^$))$'s apologize for their rudeness!

That button has a chance of being abused......

What I have found out by members including myself. is when rudeness is pointed out, an apology is return rather quickly,........... most times. ...

phoenix911

phoenix911,

It would appear from following the thread (http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/40997) that it was not the Guest that started off calling the other person an idiot. I think this is the kind of thing that europium was talking about when he/she started this thread. Had that been a registered member that posted would you have referred to them as an idiot?

Kind Regards

Mr. W.A Snow

Legend has it that at one point during his address to the House of Lords, Winston Churchill kindly offered, "Clearly half of you are idiots!"

They were outraged and immediately demanded that Churchill offer an apology. He agreed: "I apologize for my earlier remark. Clearly half of you are not idiots."

phoenix911 writes: "Have you ever been called an idiot, (or on terms of an idiot)?"

Yes. Many times.

"And what did you do about it?"

What can be done about it? If I am an idiot, then my accuser is telling the truth. If I'm not an idiot, then no amount of accusation can make it so.

"Prove him wrong(?) ..."

No, because at this stage the attacker is not interested in proof, but in inflicting damage on the other party. Proof appeals to the intellect, but an attack is emotionally motivated. Tools that apply to the one are seldom effective with the other.

"... give up your convictions and go with the crowd(?), ..."

Never. And if anyone should ever exhort you to 'Go with the flow,' gently remind them that flows always go downhill.

"... or walk away."

Less often than I should.

No, no. I am not mixing them up. I understand the difference. While most of the comments in this thread have been people sharing opinion, others have talked about the steep decline of this site and about leaving it for "better" or "more professional" sites. There was a healthy tone of disdain. It was in response to those posts that my original statement was directed.

Forgive me (seriously) for not searching through the 110 messages to find the ones I was referring to and thanks to Andy Germany (among others) for expression of faith in what we try to do as CR4 mods and admins.

Hole in the Snow, I don't understand how honesty and equality of view points is an unfortunate situation for me. I believe in the sharing of a variety of opinions as I stated in my original post. As an English teacher who works on an engineering site, why would I want singular perspectives of just the most refined and established engineers? That approach would seemingly ban me from the site I work on.

I am not of the mind that people can't give feedback about what needs improvement on this site. As a matter of fact, it is essential. For me, this was more of a call to arms for those who want to see CR4 continue to improve. A call to be a part of the solution, be it just as simple as reporting inappropriate content or recommending improvements to the CR4 Admins.

This is what I envision when the worst happens.....

"Can't you hear the words that I'm banging outta my keyboard?"

Daggonit europium, I've reviewed this whole thread and wish you would tear me up about my twisted hotdog balloon picture of the universe in the Jorrie Roger Pink thread that I had the temerity to enjoin about without good math vector algorithm skills.

I one time in the past posted a similar thread.

When I was most upset with a status member blogger, I posted under my Avatar knowing I was extreme, and very upset.

I had the choice.

When members post anonymously they at the best are giving away secret information otherwise not to be known.

I put up with Guests for that reason, as did Ben Franklin say it is sometimes only the anonymous who can tell us the truth. -(essentially).

Ben was a wily guy known as both at politician and a scientist, and women liked him, so I think he did alright. Old Ben retired early you know and got money to live from printing money.

I do need your input as concerns Coherence and Multiple universes and String Theory and Steady State stuff.

Since we had heated arguments over this sort of stuff in the past I am trusting of your insights.

P.S. As far as the site, it is limited by the administrators, and while you were away many Guests have stressed veterans patience.

I liked it better when they were all called Anonymous Coward. It gently directed people towards registering....

Now that i could live with