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The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 2:55 AM

Ben 78, who is with John Henry Hydrogen has offered an HHO unit to test. Their site is straightforward, and they do not claim that their unit will work only if you wave magnets around, pour weasel urine into the tank, or use an "efie," a device which alters (illegally, of course) the O2 sensor(s) readings.

My tentative plan is to install the unit on my 2004 Honda Accord, which has a manual transmission, helping to eliminate variability in torque converter lockup vs non lockup, etc. The Accord will be equipped with a Scan Gauge 2 fuel economy computer, the operation of which is proprietary -- but it is reasonable to assume that is uses readings from either (or both) the mass airflow sensor or pulse width on the injectors to calculate injected fuel amounts continuously. It uses the vehicle speed sensor to read vehicle speed, and then does the calculation to compute instantaneous fuel consumption (as well as trip, day, etc.).

People who have used the Scan Gauge 2 have reported very high accuracy, as would be expected, because it is using the same data that the ecu uses to precisely inject the correct amount of fuel.

With a Scan Gauge 2, and without the complicating factor of any devices which tamper with the emission system (and which could potentially "trick" the Scan Gauge 2 in the same way that the ECU can be "tricked,") even on-road tests of a device like an HHO unit (which can easily be turned on and off) can be accomplished with pretty good repeatability. However, there is no substitute for a dyno, which allows consistency of load and speed that is very hard to achieve safely (if at all) on the road, so we will use a dyno at least to calibrate and gain confidence in the Scan Gauge 2.

We'd measure HHO output flow rate periodically throughout testing to keep the flow rate constant. If it appears that there is significant gain or loss from the HHO unit, then we will vary flow rates to see if the relationship between flow rate and gain or loss changes. We will also test the claims by Onecraftydude that the typical flow rates (1-2 lpm) are actually too high (even though the injected mass is incredibly small) and cause detonation -- an effect not reported by other HHO promoters, nor by the numerous university researchers who have worked with hydrogen injection.

We will also monitor O2 sensor readings with the unit switched on and switched off.

We will do a series of A/B A/B A/B tests one immediately after the other to keep temperature, humidity, tire pressure, engine condition, etc. all constant. This will eliminate many sources of variability and sources for criticism of of invalid tests. We will allow enough time between on/off cycles to allow performance to stabilize. If we find a load at which the unit is particularly effective, we will alter flow to see if performance can be optimized, recording changes and results.

The tests will be designed so that any garage inventor can replicate them at very low cost. This will help small promoters of the units to avoid feeling that they must make outlandish performance claims before having any real data.

Our working hypothesis will be that performance differences attributable to the unit may be very hard to measure, because the energy value of the injected hydrogen is such a small portion of the total fuel consumption (on the order of 1/1000 of the total). Thus, we will be careful to see if effects can be observed at very low loads, such as at idle, as well as at more normal road loads.

If this preliminary testing indicates significant efficiency improvements, then we will attempt to set up testing with a governmental agency using standard procedures and equipment. Also, if this preliminary testing indicates a significant performance change, we will measure the criteria emissions (CO, HC, NOx) to see how they are effected.

If you have suggestions, or questions you would like to have answered via this preliminary testing, please comment. I'd like this test to be sufficient for an engineer, scientist, or technically engaged person (and ideally the average person) to be able to say either: "Yes, it looks very likely that these devices work as advertised", or "No, it seems unlikely that these devices work as advertised."

Perhaps if the HHO unit shows significant performance changes, then we can come up with a plan for testing additions, such as Efie, magnets, etc.

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#43
In reply to #37
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/01/2009 3:55 PM

Now That was an informative, & mostly well typed response, & true to the idea that loads on the drive pulley do change as far as power demands on the "Engine", which NOT everyone here will automatically assume. Your First statement about Alternator's did not include the above information That is why I added it (in a funny way).

Don't assume You are always talking to Theoretical Physicists Here, or anywhere, try to make Your statements understandable by the lay person (or sale people), and include both the Pro, & Con.

My Quote:

If You surpass the 80AMP rating, things start to go funny, like lights on Your radio dial dimming, strange messages beaming into Your Bluetooth... And You Hear Scotty's voice in the back of Your Head saying "I'm Given' Her All Shes Got Cap'n", and then You Freak-out, and crash into a Starbucks parking lot.

That was entirely meant to be a Funny way of expressing My thoughts on over-drawing an Alternator, which I do fully understand.

Your Quote:

By the way, the reason that Police Cruisers have the hood propped open to assist in cooling is simply because the car is not moving, so that the air cooling caused by the motion is missing. Also, they have often upped the tick over speed somewhat.

I knew that too.

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#53
In reply to #43

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 4:05 AM

Now think about this all very carefully, you can substantiate what I am about to say by looking back at the posts as nobody (except admin) can change them any more, for us they are now cut in stone:-

1) you complain that I did not bother to mention that when drawing more current from an alternator the load increases on the engine. Something that I feel is self evident (nobody else complained so they understood it fully!!)....

But no problem, if you really feel that it needs to be stated fully, I did that for you in my last post. It could be a legitimate gripe.....and I am generally in agreement fully with full and accurate descriptions......its always best.

but in the same post:-

2) when I mention/correct all the "misleading/completely inaccurate" statements of yours from your post(s), you only say "I know", or "I knew that too"....why????

You must be either accurate or make DOUBLY sure that what you post is meant as a joke. Smileys are the usual method.....but if you feel there is a better way, just do it.....you method did not achieve that!!!

Your original "funny" (according to you) post that was not marked as "funny" at all, did not in any way shape or form imply that you meant it as a joke, (just that you wrote it in a jokey manner) or that you knew better, in fact it is so written (go and read it again!) that you were certain "that's how things really worked"!!!

So my impression is really that what you wrote is what you seriously believed at that time and that my later post "educated" you enough to see your errors, but you don't like the idea that someone else might understand something better......

May I point out in a friendly way that:-

NOBODY ON CR4 KNOWS EVERYTHING, AND MOST OF US UNDERSTAND THAT, AND WE DON'T LET IT BOTHER US.

We also do not write about things we don't fully understand, but if we do make a mistake in that area, we retract, we thank the person concerned and usually apologize. Not to brazen it out and just say "I KNOW THAT" afterwards, because it just makes you look silly.....think about it my friend!!

You can't have it both ways without me or someone else picking up on it, so please just get your act in order!!

Please, please, please either make it fully obvious that what you are implying is NOT the way things really work, or just state it accurately and correctly to the best of your knowledge....middle of the road MAY get misunderstood, as you did with my original post - but no problem for me, I added the missing info - no pain.

But then making a few far more serious omissions in your own postings and knowledge, here may I quote you as to how you see yourself we should post (I agree fully except where I added some ????s. Did you mean "Sales people?):-

"try to make Your statements understandable by the lay person (or sale???? people), and include both the Pro, & Con"

........will get me personally typing again!!!

You appear to be saying "Do what I say, not what I do!"

Have a great day anyway!

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#60
In reply to #53

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 11:24 AM

You didn't think "Beaker" setting his Salad on Fire was funny?

Yes I meant to Say "Sales People", shall I point out all of Your type-o's?

Sales/Marketing types often have conflicts with Engineers, if there is something lost in the communication of information...

===============================================================

This gets to the Point I was trying to make clear;

1) you complain that I did not bother to mention that when drawing more current from an alternator the load increases on the engine. Something that I feel is self evident (nobody else complained so they understood it fully!!)...

If it is not pointed out, those who do not know, will assume You know what You are talking about, and that an Alternator will produce it's full output with little or no demand from the Engine, so they won't pose a question, OK.

Your first post regarding Alternators was well written, and articulate, but incomplete because of the power impact on the Engine being left out, that is all.

==============================================================

Now pass the Wienerschnitzel, & Lager it's Lunch time.

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#67
In reply to #60

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 5:33 PM

You only answered part of my post, so I guess you accept my view on your posts...? Thank you.

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#77
In reply to #67

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 12:33 AM

Nope I don't accept Your view on My posts, I think You just skimmed through them without seeing that I mentioned plenty of details, like My mentioning (in My post) that the idle is being bumped up via solenoid on the Cop cars, but I didn't feel like arguing about My posts, when they are all available for everyone to read.

My point was to get You to acknowledge the missing item in Your post, the changes in load the Alternator places on the Engine... You finally did.

The 100-150 watts Ken mentioned that the "HHO" generator circuit needs will cost horse power @ the pulley to turn the Alternator. I know that 8-13 Amps might not seem like much, but if it cost 3-4HP when the Engine is "cruising" on the Highway below the Peak Power of His Accord, that Horse Power draw, might offset the gains from the minuscule amounts of "HHO Gas" produced by the system.

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#78
In reply to #77

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 12:56 AM

Cyberfool From your bio

I enjoy thinking up new ways to think about a problem, Hit me with Your Best Shot. I drive Motorcycles, Cars, Trucks, Forklifts, nothing is beyond My Skill, but I also enjoy knowing/exploring How they do what they do too.

My best shot would be that you take a crash course in diplomacy. I am getting a bit bored about the bitching part in all this. Being pedantic is OK but coming over like a despot will bring no gain, never mind the amps.

Correct your voltage Mate, Ky.

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 1:08 AM

Also from My Bio: often Sarcastic, if I say something with not quite the proper amount of Tact it is not Personal.

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#94
In reply to #78

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 6:35 AM

I agree entirely, well put.

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#81
In reply to #77

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 1:36 AM

8 amps x 14 volts (ball park) = 112 watts

112 watts or 0.112 kW equals 0.150 hp

a typical car consumes about 8 to 12 hp cruising a 55 mph (I know this from conducting lots of emission tests on passenger vehicles and light trucks). So the alternator load (lets say at 70% efficiency) is small, perhaps only 0.2 hp. That is about 2% of the engine's cruise output and would only be marginally detectable in an vehicle emission test lab (chassis dynamometer).

A 20% improvement in fuel economy would, however, be easy to see on such a dynamometer. However, the trace levels of hydrogen used will not cause such an improvement.

Heavy duty buses operating on 20% hydrogen by volume (or 7% by energy) in natural gas only show a slight improvement in efficiency relative to base natural gas engines. These are production engines that operated in California and British Columbia under government sponsored programs. Yes, the hydrogen helps the burn rate but the effect is not earth shattering.

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#420
In reply to #81

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 2:36 PM

Since the HHO is a catalyst to gasoline or diesel shouldn't it act differently with natural gas and produce different results?

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#421
In reply to #420

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 2:53 PM

Welcome to the insanity.

IMHO, the only sure effect to hydrogen enrichment is to pry money out of one person's pocket, and into another person's. We all are looking for some absolute scientific proof that it will work. But till then, we wait.

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#422
In reply to #421

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 4:52 PM

You can keep waiting.. I'm going to actually spend my time on something that does work!

Curse the Pseudo-Science!

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#425
In reply to #421

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 11:14 PM

I guess I am lucky then..... I get weekly mileage reports from these 18 wheelers..... and I will also add ... Truckers get to use my unit for FREE for 30 days thats ....800 bucks "saved" on fuel during that 30 days... and they are that happy ,,,, the proof is at the pumps

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#426
In reply to #425

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 11:28 PM

ben78,

If what you say is true, why is it so difficult to prove? Why can we not put this question to rest and get on with our lives? And in addition, why can we, we being the members of this forum and also the general public, not climb onto the bandwagon and realize fantastic savings in fuel costs? What exactly is the problem? I have been reading this thread for quite a while trying to gain a little understanding but, to date, it is not getting any clearer.

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#427
In reply to #426

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 11:53 PM

well the problem is ..... it seems to be really hard to agree on a proper testing method... we should not use a scan guage becuse thats what the "hydrogen scammers" use to prove that is works.... when it does not ..... the whole TEST is not going to happen....I am too busy right now... but i do respect every ones opinion on the matter.... I must prove that it works "on the road " not "in the lab" but I will be happy to share .... any new dyno and emission tests with this fine group... when I have time to get them done..... hopefully with a trusted member for a witness so until then... this is only a thread of more than 420 entries of educated opinions but this has been a learning experience .... I should have called this device an "AIR ENRICHMENT UNIT"

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#428
In reply to #427

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 12:03 AM

Well ben78, it seems to me that the thing can be proved quite easily by simply comparing the gas mileage of vehicles with and without the HHO feature. It isn't rocket science...or is it?

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#429
In reply to #425

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 7:10 AM

Ben 78 - Do you know if the Truckers are using the John Henry or the h2-operformance unit? I am very impressed with the second due to the way it makes HHO.

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#434
In reply to #429

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 10:53 PM

of coarse all is well

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#431
In reply to #425

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 11:35 AM

"800 bucks "saved" on fuel during that 30 days"

Thats Excellent news, now you just need to validate the statement and show the proof, and we can be done with this debate that has been going on for ~100 years.

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#423
In reply to #420

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 6:29 PM

Magichands65

Welcome to CR4

I have been sitting in front of the comments made by Bob and RVZ and was very hesitant to reply. That is the result of fear of reticule. In my former posts I have always insisted that my approach of using HHO (most misleading terminology, but I will stick to it for the time being) is very different.

For Bob to generalize is not what I expected from an other wise well respected member of CR4.

IMHO, the only sure effect to hydrogen enrichment is to pry money out of one person's pocket, and into another person's. We all are looking for some absolute scientific proof that it will work. But till then, we wait.

RVZ717

You can keep waiting.. I'm going to actually spend my time on something that does work!

Curse the Pseudo-Science!

Both of you are way out of line and will eat your words one day. I have been on this case for many years and will not get into any detail here but to wipe out completely a partly verifiable technology, just with the stroke of a pen (It should be key board really) is irresponsible and very, very unscientific to say the least.

What I am doing is only a cousin of all of the above and to call it Pseudo science and bragging about only dealing with things that work is rather disgraceful and boring. If all would think like that we would still make fire with flint stones because it worked in the past.

Your question can not be answered with out speculating and that I will not do. I anticipate less pollution in any case but there is much more to it than that.

With all due respect, Ky.

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#424
In reply to #423

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/21/2009 6:59 PM

Me again.

I don't know what happened but a whole paragraph got lost or was edited. Let me repeat here:

If you feel insulted by my comments please imagine how I and others must feel, spending time with this topic and trying to "make ends meet". If I would have just left it and your commentary stand I could not have lived with it. If you find my input insignificant I find yours rushed and destructive. Yes, I feel much better now, Ky.

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#430
In reply to #423

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 10:29 AM

Please let me offer an apology to you. My comment that HHO is a money transfer device does insult those of you that work hard trying to prove positive results from this technology. I am just tired of being disappointed by seemingly endless "almost" proven attempts. I do wish you the best in documenting your work, and finally getting HHO off of the fence.

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#433
In reply to #430

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 5:35 PM

Dear Bob

Dear RVZ717

Not only do I except your apology but will apologize here my self. I received a private mail regarding my outburst yesterday. It was from a person who knows a bit more about what I am doing and trying to achieve and put into practice. He reminded me that what I have come up with has nothing more to do with HHO. I never liked the terminology, like I have stated, but the early roots were in just that field.

If I would have listened to the skeptics and obeyed, given in to common sense and knowledge I would not have come up with what I have today. If that can happen to me it could happen to others. My anger was initiated by the generalizations and some times legitimate putting down of HHO attempts.

As you will all see in the future using electrolysis (or derivatives there of) will become a way to solve our energy problems. I will have to be more patient and keep listening to advice from people in various disciplines as physics, chemistry and mechanical engineering.

Your apologies have done a world of good and I thank you for that. Implementing my technology will not happen over night and will take a concerted effort of a dedicated team. I have no team but only some very knowledgeable people giving advice were they can. I am just putting things together at my end, combining speculation with excepted principles of the sciences involved.

With out the CR4 knowledge base I would not have come this far. I, and others, should be thankful for that.

I am very humbled, Ky.

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#436
In reply to #433

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/23/2009 2:36 PM

Please check the meanings of except and accept (verbs)!

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#437
In reply to #436

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/23/2009 5:22 PM

Thank you. Not easy if one is tri-linguistically challenged. I appreciate it and hope no misunderstandings came out of it. I accept your correction. Please tolerate, except when it causes real trouble.

Thanks again, Ky.

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#438
In reply to #437

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/27/2009 12:36 AM

Good. Now we can all sit by the campfire and sing "We are the world"

Just kidding. I hope your work goes well, and you get rewarded for it.

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#439
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/27/2009 6:10 PM

Thanks Bob. Any little bit helps, Ky.

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#432
In reply to #423

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/22/2009 11:52 AM

I apologize if your offended. I have spent far too many days/months/hours building all kinds of "electolyzer" units. I designed units which were used by a friend of mine who ran a business selling/installing the units. I was interested in the science, he was interested in the $$... Needless to say, he did an Excellent job convincing the people that it worked well. It was a fun project/s. He was able to convince Snap-On to install units in a handful of their trucks, and he did. He was in the process of signing a very large contract with a trucking company to install a unit in every one of the trucks in their fleet, they had an Independent test done by an outside party, and it was promptly turned down....

I have proven to myself that it consumes more energy than is possible to be gained from it. Therefore, I choose to spend my time on things which I believe can work... Like a sweet handmade tube amplifier, with lots of chrome!

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#93
In reply to #77

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 6:33 AM

You completely missed the point I was making.

The only question is did you miss it intentionally or not, only you really know....hopefully anyway!!!

I have my own idea on that subject!!

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#99
In reply to #93

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 10:31 AM

You completely missed the point I was making.

The only question is did you miss it intentionally or not, only you really know....hopefully anyway!!!

Eine Lüge oder Unwahrheit ist auf halbem Weg rund um die Welt vor der Wahrheit hat seine Hosen an

A lie of omission is still a lie.

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 10:47 AM

A journey of 1000 miles begins with one step.

Why don't you back off a step. You are beginning to sound like a defendant in a criminal case. Is it your intent to annoy everyone?

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#105
In reply to #100

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:59 PM

Nope, I, and many others are Prosecutor's, weighing in on the benefits of a "HHO generator" vs. it's "power consumption".

We are all waiting for the Scientific figures for both sides, which Ken's tests hope to reveal, Once the evidence is presented, the Jury will decide.

Annoyance is relative based on how personally You take a criticism, My objective is to dissect the whole process, just as Ken will scrutinize every bit of Data He collects along the way.

This Forum allows all view points, but if You don't like My posts the "minimize" button is in the upper right of this small window.

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#144
In reply to #77

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 11:14 PM

The 100-150 watts Ken mentioned that the "HHO" generator circuit needs will cost horse power @ the pulley to turn the Alternator.

Something to ponder upon , as we were developing this generator we worked on getting the reaction we needed to resolve an issue or problem we wanted to overcome until it worked the way we wanted it to in order to get the results we wanted to get , how it ends up working , or explaining it in a technical language for people of above average education to accept , we cannot do ... I realise there is a law of physics saying this can't be done , it must read something like you can't get more energy out of something then was put into creating it ... thus you can't turn electrical power from an alternator into enough energy to offset what it took to produce it ... Question ; if the motor being used here was solely ran on hydrogen , turning the alternator , and producing power to create hydrogen by electrolysis , and feeding it back into that same motor , that would not nor could not increase efficiency , it would be operating at a loss ... Laws Of Physics applied ... I'm in total agreement ... but thats not what we've done , the motor we've tried and had success on every time is diesel ( but it does work on gas as well) irregardless gas or diesel is whats running this motor as a power source and it is turning the alternator to produce the energy for the electrolysis process , which is producing hydrogen and oxygen ... We are using a low octane fuel to produce a high octane fuel and feeding that into the motor and this is perhaps the reason why what we have works , I believe we are compensating for the energy loss during this process by producing a more volatile fuel , which perhaps has given the results we get , although it could be greatly due to the improved design used concerning the electrodes , solution , power control , temperature control ,or any number of things that we have done to improved the efficiency of the process . But I'm sure the laws of physics won't have to be rewritten here .

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#147
In reply to #144

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 12:21 AM

When the "Horseless Carriage" was first being built, and sold to Consumers, Theoretical Physicists Hypothesized that if the Vehicle exceeded 60MPH the Driver, and all occupants would pass out from a lack of Oxygen.

Obviously even a 6 year-old now knows that idea is ridiculous, but that doesn't change the Fact that these ideas were Published Theory's 100+ Years ago.

My "Signature" pretty much covers how I feel about New Technologies.

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#148
In reply to #147

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 12:57 AM

You must be trying to reply to me...

Changing the subject, doesn't prove your point.

I notice you didn't address my main point,

if there's money to be made, big companies will push everyone else out of the way to make it. There is no conspiracy. They will use their size for the greatest possible advantage. LOL What possible advantage could there be to suppressing a 20% gain in efficiency? How would such a suppression of technology improve their bottom line?

You seem to be here just to fight, got anything positive to contribute?

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#151
In reply to #148

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 2:04 AM

Who are You? Garth Algore?

When did I talk to You?

Henry_78, replied to My post #77, with His post #144, Then I added a comment regarding How so called "Smart People" felt about "Horseless Carriages" over a hundred Years ago...

I didn't post anything 4/4, or 4/5 Did I miss a direct question that You posed to Me? I'll read all of Your posts tomorrow afternoon how is that, as for now, I'm going to bed wrestless because I ran out of smokes.

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#152
In reply to #148

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 4:05 AM

Hi Garthh,

Pardon me but I can't help but respond to this, Perhaps it's not just the money.

Moreover, there is no money here since water as source cannot be monopolized since it is a very basic and indemic. Unless it is being mined or drilled which makes up it's value and exclusivity for those who can.

Selling a unit is just a one shot deal, you dont have repeat business in selling the water content. Perhaps only the service for maintenance... I cannot see any money after the primary sales.

This is probably one of the reasons why it's not that attractive. Moreover, to make a realiable system of unit, the cost to manufacture it compared to normal systems that will consume a mined or drilled source of fuel - exclusively controlled / hoarded by those who can.

They don't even have to control or suppress this technology since - it is harmless to the big businesses. Whether we are able to utilize this technology or not, we are still subject to the power grid.... regardless if we like or not.

The rate of people able to get out of this grid is far lower than what we conceive.

A small stone cannot hurt this Giant... not yet anyway.

Regards,

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#153
In reply to #152

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 11:24 AM

But you're changing the subject & talking about the oil & energy business.

My comments were about transportation...

Are you suggesting that there is colusion between the oil companies & car makers?

The price of fuel directly influnces our vehicle purchasing decisions. When the price of fuel is low we're much more likely to have a big, powerful, safe, comfortable ride!

How bout another energy user

If over unity was possible, someone would be selling large 1mw or bigger gensets that run on water or better yet become partners w/the utilities to supply energy to the grid. Do the utilities have any possible reason to not us this technology? This would certainly fatten up the old bottom line...

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#155
In reply to #153

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 1:41 PM

If over unity was possible,

Garth I'm replying to a post that wasen't directed to me but I would like to put in my thoughts on it , I'm henry , if overunity was not possible the the hydrogen bomb would never have been invented during the second world war .... But please don't think that is what we've done with this hydrogen fuel cell we're not suggesting overunity or claiming it , testing has not been done in this area so we really can't say anything

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#158
In reply to #153

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 9:42 PM

Quote:

"Are you suggesting that there is colusion between the oil companies & car makers?"

Yup I would say that is true.

"Ford Motor co." is a prime example & has been around for over 100 Years. Henry's implementation of assembly line Mass-Production allowed Him to make Cars cheaply, & "His" way for several decades during which time He suppressed New technologies including improved Steam Engines, as well as early Electric Vehicles.

Henry Ford even rejected the idea of Hydraulic Brakes which He felt were a fool-hardy experiment. The inventor of them was fired by Ford, and took His idea to another manufacturer...

Early Auto-Manufacturers heavily leveraged themselves in the Oil industry for the lean times, and Helped the Oil industry expand their grip on Consumers by working in collusion with them to suppress technologies that would threaten the flow of Oil, to Refineries, to the Corner Gas Station.

Nobody gave it much thought before the Oil Crisis in the 70's, but Popular Mechanics Magazine has commented on the suppression of efficient "Fuel Injection systems", and "High MPG Carburetors" from time to time for much of it's History which goes back to 1918 (I Think).

Honda Motor Co. was started by a small Engine builder in Japan who was only building very Small Scooters/Motorcycles in the early 60's, when They got the idea why not make a Small Car that would be fuel efficient. If it wasn't for the Oil Crisis in the 70's though Honda would not be the Giant it is today, now building Cars on several Continents including North America. But because Americans like Large Displacement Engines, Honda Motorcycles now produces 3 different 1800cc Motorcycles. Their first generation Cars had less than 800cc Engine's.

Until a Public Group, or a Government Agency finally raises a fuss Nothing gets done.

Ask the Guy who invented Intermittent Wipers how He felt after battling Ford for Years to get credit for the invention, as well as royalty's, see the Greg Kinnear film from 2008.

I am marking this off-topic, But I have no stake in HHO production if anyone thinks I am championing this idea, they haven't been reading My Posts...

KEN, when is the testing going to Start??? Please Hurry.

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#172
In reply to #158

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 12:13 PM

"Honda Motor Co. was started by a small Engine builder in Japan who was only building very Small Scooters/Motorcycles in the early 60's, when They got the idea why not make a Small Car that would be fuel efficient. If it wasn't for the Oil Crisis in the 70's though Honda would not be the Giant it is today, now building Cars on several Continents including North America."

What happened to Nash, Willeys, Hudson, Studebaker, and American Motors/Rambler?

Were they pushing big engines and cars down America's throat?

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#173
In reply to #172

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 1:11 PM

Quote:

"What happened to Nash, Willeys, Hudson, Studebaker, and American Motors/Rambler?

Were they pushing big engines, and cars down America's throat?"

um, no, maybe, yes, yes, and yes.

Nash made micro Cars, Willeys made Jeeps, smallish Engines, light weight body, Hudson, Studebaker, and AMC Car's were all HEAVY.

American Motors survived the longest using whatever Engine they could get their hands on, Imported, GM, or Ford, but they were as guilty as the rest with regards to more cubic inches produces more Power, think "Javelin" with a "Big-block".

The Pacer would be one of their light-weight Vehicles, but it outweighs a Pinto, or Vega.

I only Used Honda as an example because it is such a well-known success story...

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#181
In reply to #173

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:02 AM

"Willeys made Jeeps, smallish Engines, light weight body, Hudson, Studebaker, and AMC Car's were all HEAVY."

What was the Henry J? The Gremlin, Hornet, Rambler or Concord were all less weight than today's Hondas. All of AMC's V-8, and inline 6 engines were of their own manufacture.

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#199
In reply to #181

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 4:56 AM

Quote:

What was the Henry J? The Gremlin, Hornet, Rambler or Concord were all less weight than today's Hondas.

Henry J, was built by a Ship manufacturer who wanted to try His hand at building a Car, I wasn't able to find the Vehicle weight, but I will say it is a very Cool Looking Car, and there was one at the Motorcycle Swap-meet/Car & Motorcycle show that I attended last Sunday. If I had to wager I'd guess that the "Henry J" would weigh more than it looks like because it was built by a Ship-Builder they always over build things.

An odd comparison would be a '74 Ford Maverick, vs. '74 Mercury Comet, My Father had a Comet when I was in High School, He found out after He had installed a powerful Engine, and had extensive Paint work done, that the Comet outweighed the Maverick by over 600 pounds. Since He had built it to perform rather than a daily driver You might imagine His disappointment which could have been taken care of with a little research before the project started...

He went on to Build This Car;

(I helped) which "Stock" with a 302 V-8 only weighed 2790 pounds.

I don't recall if He had it weighed after the modifications, but with what was removed vs. what was added, it probably tips the scales around 3300 pounds now. It is equipped with a 478cu in. Big-Block Ford (460 bumped up), that produces 600 brake HP, narrowed rear-end, Wide rear tires, 12-point roll cage, and Air Conditioning, Fuel Economy is not so important with a Car such as this... But it is Street Legal, and is often driven.

=====================================================

As for the AMC's You mentioned, I found stats on '72-'78 models, turns out I was wrong about the Pacer being a lightweight, it was one of the heaviest... I am only listing 2 door models below;

Gremlin weights from 2494lbs to 3094lbs

Hornet weights from 2627lbs to 3118lbs

Javelin weights from 2868lbs to 3118lbs

Pacer weights from 2995lbs to 3878lbs

Matador weights from 3500lbs - up

Concord weights from 3047lbs - up

==============================================

I didn't find My newer Chilton book to look up fairly current weights on Honda's, but if You read My initial statement the way it was meant, I wasn't championing Honda's, I was just citing them as an example.

I have never owned a Honda Car, and if I did buy one, I'd probably make a custom frame under the skin, and convert it to a Ford V-8/rear wheel drive because I have the pieces lying around. And it is Fun to play with Steel & Iron.

V-8 powered Henry J

One of My Spares;

Funny Video

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#213
In reply to #199

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 2:00 PM

the Henry J was built by Willeys, who built the jeep. The car was small, a small block Chevy was work to get into it. Light weight practical American made vehicle that could not be sold to the American public.

Japan and Honda did not invent the small practical car. They just learned to market them to Americans.

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#221
In reply to #213

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 4:30 PM

The Henry J was an American automobile built by Kaiser-Frazer Corporation and named after its chairman, Henry J. Kaiser.

Wikipedia page

Fourth Paragraph contains "Engines were supplied by Willys-Overland".

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#182
In reply to #173

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:12 AM

The worst piece of shite I've ever owned:

The 1971 Honda 600.

http://www.honda600source.com/

Rusted out and ratteled itself to pieces in about 2 years. Yugo built a better car!

But they were fast learners.

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#184
In reply to #182

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:30 AM

And you picked the highest priced model that was imported. There was also a boxy shaped model that came with the same air cooled 600 cc engine. Much more cheap looking. ( Think of Russian built cars. ) It was offered in the home market with smaller versions of the 600cc engines. 350cc and another size under 600.

I am guessing the picture is of a 71, or 72 model.

I worked at an Oldsmobile dealer in NYC that sold these Hondas. The radio and tire upgrades available to the big Olds were as much as the Hondas. Now the Oldsmobile dealership has no Oldsmobiles to sell, but is the oldest Honda dealer in the area.

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#185
In reply to #184

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:40 AM

Actually, no. That was just the first photo I found. I had the sedan, something between this:

and this:

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#186
In reply to #185

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:48 AM

That's the thing. That is a lovely patina on the hood.

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#159
In reply to #152

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 10:15 PM

Evian, spelled backwards is Naive...

=========================================================

Last Week I submitted a Public Works project idea to President Obama via e-mail, Build Pipelines (like the Oil companies use) to transmit Millions of Gallons of Water from flood plains to drought stricken areas. California has been pumping Water over the Rockies for Years From the Colorado River...

Coastal Areas could just get their Water from the Oceans (during drought), it has worked in Saudi Arabia for awhile, but they have cheap Oil in their backyards.

Innovations are constantly evolving whether it is tapping the World's Oceans, Rivers & Lakes, also Wind, or Solar (which as I already mentioned are more to do with energy conversion than fuel) the Electricity produced can be used to make a Fuel from Water, or directly power an Electric Vehicle...

Energy Storage is where improvements should be made too, a Battery that won't Blow-up, Meltdown, or use Lead would be a big +.

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#161
In reply to #159

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 11:39 PM

California has been pumping Water over the Rockies for Years From the Colorado River...

Last time I checked Nevada was west of the rockies?

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#163
In reply to #161

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 12:33 AM

OOPS...

I meant the "other" mountain range between Nevada, and the Coastal Cities in California.

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#171
In reply to #161

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 11:26 AM

Not sure why California would pump water over the rockies from the Colorado River, as this would mean they would have to pump the water east, since the Colorado River flows west of the rockies. Plus, since the Colorado River forms part of the southern border of California, they can just pull the water out at the canal turn outs that were installed along the River a century ago. California had built the infrastructure and had established water rights for drinking water and agriculture from the Colorado River nearly a quarter of a century before the first federal dam was installed on the River.

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#174
In reply to #171

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 1:27 PM

California does have to lift the Water from the Dam in Nevada, to get it to the coastal cities, How much lift I am not 100% sure on, but they found a long time ago it was easier to lift it, than tunnel. I live in Florida where the highest natural elevation is about 600 feet above Sea level, but Water still has to be "lifted" here from time to time.

Yes I made an error when I said the "Rockies" I have apologized.

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#175
In reply to #174

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 5:16 PM

FYI, there is a dam in California along the Colorado, and most of the water comes from the canals at the imperial valley like the all american canal system. The water just have to be lifted above the san bernardino mountains as much of the imperial valley is at or below sea level. BTW the imperial valley happens to be the main desert agricultural center of the US, and much of the water is used in that area for agriculture. The coastal cities use a portion of that water (mostly San Diego Area), as they get much of their water imported from Northern California and the eastern Sierras.

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#178
In reply to #175

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 10:37 PM

OK, I reread the e-mail I sent to the Whitehouse, but no one there has commented on My Error regarding the Mountain Range involved... But if the Oil companies can afford to spend the $ to ship Millions of Barrels of Oil across the Country via Pipeline (From refinery to refinery) the Government could do something similar with Water.

Sounds like a Huge Sprinkler system to shuttle Water from surplus areas (Mississippi + others) to drought stricken areas... Heck of a Public Works project, heh?

Then again Individual States are always back-biting each other, rather than behaving like a Country United... Until they Cry for Federal Help when a Flood occurs.

Canada seems to be able to get things done easier than here in the "United States of America", but they only have a handful of "Provinces" vs. 48 contiguous States.

OOPs, I forgot a link, to a Calculator for moving 1 cubic kilometer of Water per Year.

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#183
In reply to #159

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:12 AM

How big do you think the pipe would have to be to make a significant change in the drought areas?

How big do you think the water supply pipes are that bring drinking water to NYC from upstate are? Check that out, and then get back to me on what would be needed to relieve a drought area.

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#187
In reply to #183

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 11:34 AM

Hmm If I had to guess, maybe 3 8' diamter pipes to supply water to southern california over the San Bernardino Mountain, since this is approximately the size of the pipes used to cross the Tehachapi/San Gabriel Mountains for the CA Aqueduct. There is no reason for a pipe any where else, and they would use natural stream channels and a Canal system like everywhere else in California. Think all-american Canal, Delta Mendota, or California Aqueduct. Pipes are relatively expensive when you can use canals or the Rivers.

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#188
In reply to #187

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 11:48 AM

RCE,

You seem to have a gap between the 3 and the 8. Is your guess 38' diameter? That would be some plumbing job.

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#192
In reply to #188

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 8:58 PM

If You check the calculator link I put in a couple posts ago it shows 1 million Gallons per/minute through a single 16 foot pipe, I think RCE meant (3) 8-foot pipes... If I worked there I'd love to strap myself to a "Pig", and ride through the pipes once.

A "PIG" is the nickname for a pipeline scrubber/inspection unit See the James Bond movie with the Cello player for the 90's. Also another Bond flick, Bond rode an automated welding unit through an Oil pipeline.

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#195
In reply to #192

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 11:19 PM

NYC uses up to 1.5 Billion gallons of water per day. Currently is is supplied by 2 tunnels from areas of upstate NY. One is 20 feet accross and the other is 16 feet. (sizes seen to vary) They are in the process of constructing a third tunnel with a 24 foot diameter. The third tunnel has been under construction since 1970, and will not be completed until 2020. And it only runs 60 miles. The construction of NYC's third water tunnel is the largest project ever undertaken in the western hemisphere.

Just how big, and how long is your proposed water tunnel?

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#196
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 12:24 AM

We should start a New Thread... Yeah, I remember the Aqueduct featured in "Die Hard 3".

The History Channel program on the California lift station was a more recent memory.

The system I had in mind would be above ground (some would call it a blight perhaps), but it would be a more rapid construction than underground that way.

I don't know all of the details regarding how much Water would have to be moved to alleviate seasonal flooding, I was just making a comparison to the pipelines used to move massive amounts of Oil, so the technology is already in place.

Remember "Die Hard 4"?

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#154
In reply to #148

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 1:32 PM

if there's money to be made, big companies will push everyone else out of the way to make it. There is no conspiracy.Is this not in itself a conspiracy ?

What possible advantage could there be to suppressing a 20% gain in efficiency? How would such a suppression of technology improve their bottom line? Considerably if it didn't cost them anything , they would receive the recognition for development , as well as they profits of selling same technology to competing company's ,etc. Garth everything theses companies do and think and say is all about the bottom line and making sure it stays in their pocket , if they have to lie , they will , if they have to steel , they will , and I don't think blackmail or murder is too far from what they would do .... But as you know , if every vehicle out there had one on it , all they would do is put the prices up by 20% and call it a shortage ... Thats why we stopped at 20% , it won't interfere with the economic system in place .. If a technology threatens our economic society , it won't be permitted to be manufactured ... Thats life , wake up and smell the stinky roses

I will fight to expose the truth , this isn't worth talking about , I presumed that anyone who has entered into puberty has realized that this is how the world is!!

Read the post I placed , this subject was just a brief reference to what I was talking about , you put it upon yourself to discuss this silliness

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#156
In reply to #154

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 1:50 PM

Ok now you have ruined any credibility you may have had regarding your invention. People who do not properly understand the nature and operation of a large corporation and/or US business in general probably should not discuss their conspiracy theories. It just ruins their credibility in other disciplines, since you must begin to question how far their lack of aptitude or rational thinking processes must extend. It would probably be more benefitical to your business interst to limit discourse on the conspiracy of large corporations and government against the benefit of the US citizen, at least until after you have a patent and enough of a war chest to fight patent infringements from foreign manufacturers.

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#157
In reply to #156

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 2:26 PM

Our units are patent pending , if you'd look at the site you'd know that , as to the rest of your post , I don't claim to have any credibility and if I did claim it you'd probably want copies of my papers , nor do i claim to be well educated Any post your referring to concerning this is strictly an opinion that after 58 yrs is hard to ignore , life's experiences happen .. I'm entitled to an opinion even in a communist society ..and don't think I'm referring to the U.S.A as a communist country , maybe we should try and stay on subject and stop getting into examples of something to get a point across ... Its like floating in a boat in a pond of turds and I'm saying look at all these turds and your busy focusing all your attention on one single turd and can't even see the pond ... impossible to have a reasonable conversation round here .. good bye .. if its ever possible to be able to measure liquid fuel let me know in an e-mail ..You'll find it on my site !. I'm actually one of these guys with one of them hydrogen things , that can't possibly work right !! If I was you and had one of these guys in my sights with an opportunity to ask some questions I wouldn't be wasting time with off subject questions ... No more posts from me I'm afraid .. let me know if when & where any testing might be done , I'll try to be there

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#162
In reply to #157

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 11:48 PM

Got any data?

you are claiming a 20% gain, which means its up to you to prove it.

Why are you arguing with us, since you claim to have a trillion dollar idea?

At least fake something that looks like credible data.

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#68
In reply to #60

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 5:53 PM

Wiener Schnitzel is two words and Lager is called Fassbier. Why do I state this? Just having fun while others are bitching about the little bubbles that run the show.

Now back to the drawing board, Ky.

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#26
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 10:51 AM

"A lie or untruth is halfway round the world before the truth has got its trousers on" Sir Winston Churchill

_________________________________________________________________________

OH OK, I get it, a German quoting Churchill, regarding the difference between half-truth's, and truth.

So You are a Funny Guy...

I have a sense of Humor too, Mein Herr Andy

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#30
In reply to #26

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 12:09 PM

I am British, I just like living here......

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#35
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 8:06 PM

Data log the current and voltage specifically into the HHO system and that coming out of the alternator. then do some back calculating to estimate the impact on the engine, using some researched efficincies for power transfer from the engine through the alternator.

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#28
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 11:37 AM

With a scan tool - at least you can do longer tests conveniently.

Or much more importantly, short tests, one immediately following the other, so that none of the other variables can change between changes in the state of the variable to be tested. (This is one reason dyno testing, done in one session, in A/B A/B A/B fashion, has a huge advantage over long road tests.) The likelihood that the extraneous variables can change one minute to favor case A, and then change back to favor case B in the next minute, and then change back again to favor case A etc, is extremely remote. In contrast, in long road tests the variables are so many that it is very hard to control them. Averaging over time can help, but over time, the vehicle has more likelihood of changing in important ways. And of course, tests over time are comparatively difficult to document and costly.

If it is video documented - the presence of some un-interested parties will also be good.

I am encouraging a local TV station do a series along these lines, and will no doubt have a person from Georgia Tech, one our country's best engineering schools, observe. TV coverage can certainly help get the word out, but video "documentation" as seen on YouTube is worthless as a means to convince scientific types one way or the other: it is simply far too easy to fake videos.

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#229
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 8:09 AM

Hey buddy, did you watch my truth about hydroxy video on youtube? It explains the effect you saw on your second dyno test. You probably reached the threshold. Your alternator only produces about 40-50% of total oputput at idle so if you are trying to pull too many amps it will cause a discharge state in your battery which will lower the voltage in the charging system. Your lights will dim and sensitive devices may flicker on and off. Try using a pwm or use less electrolyte to keep this from happening. How has the VW been doing lately? Also all the links to Daniel are dead. If you have any ideas I would appreciate the info on how to contact him.

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#34

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 7:17 PM

I like every ones comments on this test...

I hope every one looks at the www.johnhenryhydrogen.com site

This unit is one of a kind... Ben 78 AND Henry 78 can't wait for the results

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#40

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/01/2009 2:30 AM
what do you consider to be a passing test?
You would want proof of better mileage (20%}... with more horse power included

with no cheating of coarse....

THIS would prove it IS possible to make h2 o2 and not show any loss....BUT A GAIN

would CR4 accept this ?

have you figured out how we can measure the fuel in liquid form... I would need physical proof .... not just numbers... numbers can be off some times..

I don't want any one to have any excuses

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/01/2009 3:01 PM

Hi Ben,

I think most of us would consider 20% to be a good target, although if we find that variability is very low with the "Scam Gauge", even a smaller difference could be considered valid. For example, if we find that there is a very strong correlation between Scan Gauge (we don't want to go too far with the alternate spelling -- the Scan Gauge people are pretty good sorts) and other measurement methods, and the test results are like this: on: 25.1 off: 22.2... on: 25.2 off: 22.1... on: 25.1 off: 22.0... on: 25.1 off: 22.1... on: 25.2 off: 22.0 then we can reasonably conclude that there is a difference attributable to the variable we are changing, namely the HHO unit being off or on. That difference would be about 14%. (Statistics will tell us how certain we can be.)

It is a reasonable assumption that if efficiency improves, so would horsepower, but I would not make that a requirement to say that the device works. (Of course there are loads of ways that fuel efficiency can increase while HP decreases -- for example by running the engine lean.)

Re measuring the fuel in liquid form, I propose using a calibrated flask to feed the fuel tank through a constant level breather device, which will maintain the level in the filler tube, replenishing it from the calibrated flask. This will only work on a dyno, but can serve to calibrate the Scan Gauge. (We may be able to find a dyno with real fuel flow equipment, but this stuff is expensive, and not often installed.) Georgia Tech may be able to help here.

It might also be possible to run the engine on three cylinders, with one fuel injector removed, and collect fuel in a flask, to be measured. We'd track the "load" parameter (which gives a percentage of max pulse width), and correlate that with actual fuel amounts. (This would drive the O2 sensor absolutely crazy... but with a sock stuffed in one intake runner... I could end up with a completely inoperable car.)

It will take some fiddling around to be certain that the Scan Gauge is accurately telling us actual fuel quantities consumed. By the beginning of next week, I should have a feel for exactly how the thing works, provided it arrives soon. Otherwise, there will be a several day delay for some backpacking.

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/01/2009 9:35 PM

Good Answer Ken,

I am rating it also.

With regards to Andy's - 20% is conservative. In fact, with Less than 1 LPM cell rating at 13.8VDC - Less is more means - not going beyond 5A on the Alternator load - therefore - no HP or Torque issues. 1 LPM for every 2 or 3 minutes is still EXTRA Hydrogen power Fed into the engine. Yesterday - a small accident occured and it involved 1 Liter of Oxyhydrogen gas in a "Bubbler" Drier tube. The big explosion was something to think about. If 1 Liter of Hydroxy gas has this much power... whether we spread it on a 1 minute or 2 minute engine operation at idle, where will this added power go? Will it dissepate with ambient air going in? Is it fast enough that the reaction takes place before the piston is able to utilize the force? Is it fast enough that it only works to push carbon deposit out of the exhaust valve before it fully closes? So far - emission reduction has been one of the strongest points of this "SUPRESSED TECHNOLOGY" - I would like to make this emphasised. If this is the case... then how is it going to save fuel or add mileage?... I believe everything is relative. It all depends on where you are looking from. Andy's website is ok, I agree with his approach. Very good business move.

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/01/2009 11:55 PM

Hello gentlemen : I'm Ben's father and co-inventor of this fuel cell and I have a comment to this response of "Ehnriko" When you figure a vehicle @ 20 m.p.g. traveling @ 60 m.p.h it will use 3 gallons of fuel in one hour , When you break this down into cups of fuel used would be 48 cups in 60 minutes , which means 8/10ths of a cup of fuel per minute @ 60 m.p.h. now when you add 4 cups of gaseous hydrogen in that same minute it will drive the temperature of the pyrometer sensor on the exhaust to a higher temperature , this will in turn send a signal to the computer controlling the amount of fuel going into the motor , sensing that the mixture is too rich because of the higher temperature it will quickly reduce the amount of fuel intake until proper temperature is achieved , this is almost instantaneous . Now all vehicle timing is a few degrees before top dead centre , which means because hydrogen has such a fast flash time as compared to gasoline you will end up with a longer power stoke or a stronger power stroke this is where the extra horsepower comes from , we're adding extra burnable fuel to the engine and compensating for the gasoline reduction into the engine so it isn't running lean , it can't be running lean when the horsepower is increased now can it . We know horsepower is increased because it shows on the dyno .... So now you ask " then how is it going to save fuel or add mileage " formula equals 4 parts hydrogen to less then 1 part gasoline would have a lot to do with it , ours is the only unit we know of that does this ..I realize the test is being done to prove or disprove not that hydrogen induction into a motor will enhance mileage , I think we all agree on this , the question seeking an answer is can the charging system of a motor freely produce any extra power and turn it into a fuel source without reducing mileage ??? I believe a dynamo-meter test will reveal a lean running motor if horsepower is decreased ..it will also show if the horsepower is increased as ours does ..... will it increase mileage , it has to or it would be running way too rich , manufacturers of these motors have these sensors so the motor will run according to manufacturers specs , if your mileage doesn't increase , you likely have a sensor not working properly , and its probably the pyrometer sensor ..

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 12:03 AM

Hello Ben's father,

Hey pops, I don't know anything about HHO and cannot offer any arguments for or against what you have said. But, at the same time, I do understand saving fuel. If the device in question saves fuel or gets more out of the same amount of fuel, then I will buy into it. If not, forget it.

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#47
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 12:23 AM

Hope you own a transport truck , we wouldn't consider putting one on a car the cost wouldn't justify money spend for a return of 5.00 a week , I would need to buy a scam gauge to sell these for a car . We're doing this test in hopes it will lead to a more challenging one on a truck where the motor being influenced is the size of your car and the fuel savings are worth while

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 12:33 AM

You may be mistaken on the use of a pyrometer in the exhaust systems of gasoline powered automobiles. Current gasoline powered automobiles rely on oxygen sensors to monitor the fuel ratio of the engine.

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#49
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 12:51 AM

Hello Bob ; nice meeting with you , theres a sensor within 5 inch's of your exhaust manifold and it will be on the exhaust pipe , it does read heat , if this sensor didn't have any influence on fuel used I'm afraid you would be driving around with your choke ( or a rich fuel setting ) constantly. This is the only understandable reasoning I have as to how it works , but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong , "it ain't my first rodeo son" As you said , the oxygen sensors monitor fuel ratio not 100% control it .

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#50
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 1:01 AM

The part in the exhaust pipe is an oxygen sensor. Many cars now have one in front of the catalytic converter, and one after the cat. Combine that with a duel exhaust pipe on V design engines, and it becomes common to have 4 oxygen sensors on one car.

The signal(s) from the cat (s) is sent to the engine management computer. From that, the fuel ratio is fine tuned. Exhaust temperature is only monitored in diesels.

An oxygen sensor generates around 2 volts DC, when the fuel ratio is correct.

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#58
In reply to #50

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 10:30 AM

Bob c, & Henry 78;

You are Both right in a way...

Bob: Some Cars have both Temperature, as well as O2 sensors, But BOTH pieces are for monitoring, the ECU decides what to do with that information, as well as data on the intake side.

Henry: Most Cars however do rely on just the O2 sensors on the exhaust side...

The ECU is what Ken's scan guage will be watching.

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 2:38 AM

Just needed to place a couple links here, sorry but I find that you may be misinformed (directed at Henry, not you Bob) about how ECU's read O2 sensors, how they are made and how they make adjustments under what condition. Understanding all the controlling elements to an EFI management system IS more than just the O2, although an important leg of the system. Obviously researching the subject and getting familiar with the many variables related to EFI would raise many questions in HHO peoples minds and realize some obvious questions. Give it a read and some study.

The following has many links related:http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question2571.htm

and here http://mr2.com/TEXT/O2_Sensor.htm also decent, this one provides a bit more technical info:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

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#55
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 4:26 AM

It would be interesting to hear if or not this temperature measuring device needs to be added to the engine or not!!

Or have you smelt a "scam"?????

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#56
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 7:38 AM

Exhaust gas temperature is often monitored on engine dynomometers. It helps to determine emissions and tuning procedures. I have never had the opportunity to work with an engine on a dyno. Therefore There are some pages missing from my book on the use of pyrometers. Perhaps Blink can help with this.

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#61
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 1:00 PM

I'm not aware of a recent production spark ignition car engine that includes an exhaust gas temperature probe (although there may be one). Piston engine aircraft almost always do. In dyno testing, we used to install them some of the time, and sometimes would clamp one to the outside of the pipe, which is pretty crude, but slightly better than nothing. We would routinely use a cylinder head temperature gauge reading from a thermocouple under the spark plug.

For mixture control, the O2 sensor tells you all you need (for controlling mixture closely enough that the catalytic converter can work) and much more precisely (for that purpose) than exhaust gas temperature can. Therefore EGT is immaterial, because you can't deviate from what the O2 sensor is saying, anyway.

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#62
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 1:04 PM

Thank you. I have seen them connected as you say in articles, but no hands on exp.

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#71
In reply to #55

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 6:22 PM

For the record... we will not be "adding" or "messing" with any sensors ... ALL the sensors will be left "alone" .... they will all be working as they should

For a proper test we need to measure physical evidence...like dyno readings and amount of fuel used ....

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#126
In reply to #71

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 1:49 AM

Here is a trick that the "OTHER guys" will do...

They inject hydrogen into the engine through the vacuum line with a little bit of air... this will lean out the air to fuel mixture ..... on A pick-up truck "THEY" ran a 17 to 1 mixture with a EFIE sensor{tricker}....the horse power dropped and the NOX emissions increased... until he gets a broken truck... but the scan gauge was included in the insallation....

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#54
In reply to #45

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 4:24 AM

If the Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture explodes before "TDC" as you imply, it will try and force the piston "backwards", dramatically increasing the temperature of the engine (as you mention) but lowering the amount of power available at the crank at the same time.....it will also ignite any petrol around "far too soon!", causing "Pinking".....

Pinking (even without gas added) has overheated a great many engines over the years, some to actual damage to the motor......

This happens even with "slower" fuels like petrol, if the engine timing is completely wrong (too advanced!) for some reason.....

I cannot imagine how you will handle the timing for both a "fast" fuel like the gas mixture and a relatively "slow" fuel like petrol......they appear to me to be completely incompatible when combined together at the same time, timing wise, so how is that handled?

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 7:44 AM

I cannot imagine how you will handle the timing for both a "fast" fuel like the gas mixture and a relatively "slow" fuel like petrol......they appear to me to be completely incompatible when combined together at the same time, timing wise, so how is that handled?

Would the fuels mix before, or in the combustion chamber and then require a timing pattern for that combined fuel?

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#59
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 11:04 AM

Petrol is slow?

An extremely slow idling Engine spinning @ 600RPM is firing each cylinder 300 times in a minute... That is 5 times per second 0.20 Seconds.

At cruising speed on the Highway, lets say You are putting along @ 3000RPM, that is 1500 firings per minute, per cylinder, the time for each firing is now 0.040 Seconds not exactly what I would call slow.

When You add the HHO gas, it is introduced in the intake pipe to be handled much the same way the Air going in is, it just has a higher concentration of combustible gases than the Air You are breathing while hooking the hoses to the doo-hicky.

Carbon buildup in the combustion chamber is more responsible for pre-detonation than the timing is usually, the Engines fire BTDC because the spark is racing the mechanical Piston which has a rotating Mass behind it, sometimes the advance curve is off, whether Vacuum, Mechanical, or OBD2.

If Your Car doesn't have a distributer, then the Advance Curve is entirely handled by the ECU, which may, or may not have an adjustable PROM.

===============================================================

The HHO/Petrol mix is more like an AIR/HHO/Petrol mix, all being sucked into the combustion chamber together, where it is compressed, then ignited (boom).

On a 4.6L V-8 Engine each cylinder sucks in more than half a liter of AIR/HHO/Petrol, at the top of the compression stroke it is squished to less than an 16th of a liter, more than 95% of what is sucked in is regular old AIR.

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#65
In reply to #57

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 3:53 PM

Scientifically I cannot answer , all I can do is to conclude that the hydrogen/oxygen gas would be a pre-igniter to the fuel because it has a slightly faster reaction time than gas ... I may be wrong , I'm just trying to throw in my opinion as I did with the sensors earlier ... Lets get something straight here boys .............. we don't do anything with sensors ... our knowledge is limited , we don't need to play with them , how many ways does this need to be said , a hose is run to the breather , a power line from the battery , and a power line from the ignition switch going to a magnetic relay to power the unit up .. period thats all the connections needed , so get off the sensor thing , we don't do anything with them .. we aren't scamming or trying to solicit you to buy one from us , they're not for sale for cars , vans trucks ...we have nothing to gain from your testing , we're not interested in t.v. crews during tests on cars , its not our market place and don't want to give that impression , if it were a transport truck then bring on the t.v. crews .... Concerning scan gauges , a lot of hydrogen guys sell them along with their units , myself all I know about them is that they need to be calibrated before use because they only know what info you program into them and in this case we don't even know what effect hydrogen will have so the scan gauge is useless .. the value of "x" is undetermined , scammers use these and program your gauge with the increase of mileage pre calibrated on it for 25% , 50% 140% increase what do you want a model that gives 25% increase for this much or a 50 % for this much more or the top of the line 140% for this much .. Its one of their scamming tricks , unless you fellows are able to physically measure fuel no test results would be validated .. So if you want to do something constructive lets discuss how this could be done

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 3:58 PM

unless you fellows are able to physically measure fuel no test results would be validated .. So if you want to do something constructive lets discuss how this could be done

flow meter.?

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#72
In reply to #57

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 6:26 PM

we don't need to change the timing .... or any thing else

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#64
In reply to #54

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 3:24 PM

Andy I didn't say combustion happened before t.d.c. don't jump to conclusions

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#69
In reply to #64

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 5:54 PM

Quoting from your original post:-

Now all vehicle timing is a few degrees before top dead centre , which means because hydrogen has such a fast flash time as compared to gasoline you will end up with a longer power stoke........

What did you mean then????? This also fits in with my own information on both HHO and petrol......

To get petrol to "burn on time", you may have up to 20° of advance (maybe more on some engines!) on TDC when using high RPMs.

If the HHO mixture burns as fast as you say (that is my understanding as well, it is an explosion in comparison to petrol which only "burns" fast!), how do you handle timing for two different fuels in the cylinder at the same time????

At high RPM, a Petrol engine needs a long advance, HHO probably should only be ignited AFTER TDC!!! Just like a Diesel engine does, because Diesel also explodes.

Also, like a Diesel engine has, you will need beefed up bearings to handle the sudden explosion or your engines will quickly suffer from bearing failure......as happens when petrol engines fire too early and start pinking, this is when the petrol is not burning, but exploding. You can actually hear the strange noises made!!!

I have neither heard nor read how this bcan be handled correctly, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten us further.....thanks in advance.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 6:19 PM

Sounds to me, that IF this were to work properly, it would only work properly with a diesel engine.

From what I gather (which isn't much considering my head if mostly full of air) the HHO units are more likely to cause timing issues resulting in premature engine wear and failure in a gasoline engine.

Something that would make sense to me, would be running the test with a diesel engine as the test rig, being that is what the 20% improvement claim is based upon. Testing their HHO unit on a gasoline engine which it was not designed for might not result in results that will be accepted by all parties.

Test must be unbiased... If they make the claim that a 20% increase in economy can be achieved in a diesel truck, shouldn't the test be in a deisel rig? I understand the Honda is redily available and all, but the results wont prove or disprove their exact claim.

What about a diesel generator? (maybe rent one for the weekend to run the test on?) I would suspect that the generator running a constant load might be an easy way to control variables of driving conditions, operator, etc. either the use of flow meters, or precisely measured amounts of fuel, coupled with a simple timer could suffice? (and best of all... when your finished with it, simply return it to the rental company with a big smile on your face)

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