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The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 2:55 AM

Ben 78, who is with John Henry Hydrogen has offered an HHO unit to test. Their site is straightforward, and they do not claim that their unit will work only if you wave magnets around, pour weasel urine into the tank, or use an "efie," a device which alters (illegally, of course) the O2 sensor(s) readings.

My tentative plan is to install the unit on my 2004 Honda Accord, which has a manual transmission, helping to eliminate variability in torque converter lockup vs non lockup, etc. The Accord will be equipped with a Scan Gauge 2 fuel economy computer, the operation of which is proprietary -- but it is reasonable to assume that is uses readings from either (or both) the mass airflow sensor or pulse width on the injectors to calculate injected fuel amounts continuously. It uses the vehicle speed sensor to read vehicle speed, and then does the calculation to compute instantaneous fuel consumption (as well as trip, day, etc.).

People who have used the Scan Gauge 2 have reported very high accuracy, as would be expected, because it is using the same data that the ecu uses to precisely inject the correct amount of fuel.

With a Scan Gauge 2, and without the complicating factor of any devices which tamper with the emission system (and which could potentially "trick" the Scan Gauge 2 in the same way that the ECU can be "tricked,") even on-road tests of a device like an HHO unit (which can easily be turned on and off) can be accomplished with pretty good repeatability. However, there is no substitute for a dyno, which allows consistency of load and speed that is very hard to achieve safely (if at all) on the road, so we will use a dyno at least to calibrate and gain confidence in the Scan Gauge 2.

We'd measure HHO output flow rate periodically throughout testing to keep the flow rate constant. If it appears that there is significant gain or loss from the HHO unit, then we will vary flow rates to see if the relationship between flow rate and gain or loss changes. We will also test the claims by Onecraftydude that the typical flow rates (1-2 lpm) are actually too high (even though the injected mass is incredibly small) and cause detonation -- an effect not reported by other HHO promoters, nor by the numerous university researchers who have worked with hydrogen injection.

We will also monitor O2 sensor readings with the unit switched on and switched off.

We will do a series of A/B A/B A/B tests one immediately after the other to keep temperature, humidity, tire pressure, engine condition, etc. all constant. This will eliminate many sources of variability and sources for criticism of of invalid tests. We will allow enough time between on/off cycles to allow performance to stabilize. If we find a load at which the unit is particularly effective, we will alter flow to see if performance can be optimized, recording changes and results.

The tests will be designed so that any garage inventor can replicate them at very low cost. This will help small promoters of the units to avoid feeling that they must make outlandish performance claims before having any real data.

Our working hypothesis will be that performance differences attributable to the unit may be very hard to measure, because the energy value of the injected hydrogen is such a small portion of the total fuel consumption (on the order of 1/1000 of the total). Thus, we will be careful to see if effects can be observed at very low loads, such as at idle, as well as at more normal road loads.

If this preliminary testing indicates significant efficiency improvements, then we will attempt to set up testing with a governmental agency using standard procedures and equipment. Also, if this preliminary testing indicates a significant performance change, we will measure the criteria emissions (CO, HC, NOx) to see how they are effected.

If you have suggestions, or questions you would like to have answered via this preliminary testing, please comment. I'd like this test to be sufficient for an engineer, scientist, or technically engaged person (and ideally the average person) to be able to say either: "Yes, it looks very likely that these devices work as advertised", or "No, it seems unlikely that these devices work as advertised."

Perhaps if the HHO unit shows significant performance changes, then we can come up with a plan for testing additions, such as Efie, magnets, etc.

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#1

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 4:17 AM

Ken

It sounds fair - Go for it

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 11:10 PM

I am looking forward to your fuel economy reports.

HHO has been treated as a dubious technology in most technical/scientific circles. The technology is basically taking energy from the alternator (which loads the crankshaft) to make "HHO" (basically free hydrogen and oxygen in trace quantities, from electrolysis) and then returning it to the engine inlet to increase efficiency. Thermodynamics says that this will actually create a loss of efficiency unless you get a mysteriously large increase in the engine efficiency.

I have never seen any heat release diagrams (from in-cylinder pressure transducers from an engine on a dynamometer) that show that the claimed HHO improvements are real. If true, you would actually see a noticeable increase in burn rate of the fuel mix (gasoline + H2 + O2) in the cylinder which does improve efficiency a bit. You generally need hydrogen to replace about 5% of the gasoline to see noticeable combustion improvements. The dynamometer tests would also give the accurate efficiency results required for positive proof.

I would think that if HHO technology really worked then engine manufacturers (gasoline / petrol and diesel) around the world would latch on to this technology.

Good luck with your tests. It looks like you are trying to collect enough data to make an informed opinion. Maybe there is something I am missing.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 11:43 PM
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#4
In reply to #3

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 11:53 PM

Gathh: Thanks for those links. They are well written and pretty well debunk the myth of HHO. Unfortunately there are always new suckers who will to waste their time and money on this type of thing.

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#7
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 7:40 AM

I believe Blink is not one of them, he may even have a slight negative bias towards HHO.

Well, one can think he will be wasting his time, but lets keep an open mind and look at the science generated.

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 1:22 PM

You generally need hydrogen to replace about 5% of the gasoline to see noticeable combustion improvements.

Correct. The amount produced by HHO devices is at least a full order of magnitude less than this. (And in addition, the fuel used to create the hydrogen onboard has at least 5 times the energy value of the hydrogen created -- because of the low combined efficiency of the engine, alternator and electrolysis process. Thus the system would be expected to operate at a net loss.)

Unfortunately, there are very few legitimate tests of HHO "boosting" for the obvious reason that there is 1. no plausible science behind it, and 2. plenty of experiments with H2 injection that indicate that there is nothing magical about H2 that would explain the outlandish claims of HHO promoters. Thus scientific types know full well that these units do not work, and spend their time investigating things that show some promise of being beneficial. Unscientific types, however, can not or will not make the connection between the existing science and the performance of HHO devices: they say in effect, "Sure apples usually fall downward from the tree, but prove to me that they cannot fall upward! My HHO device shows that the 'laws' of science are wrong."

So the upcoming test will put some real numbers together for the people who find the existing science hard to understand or to apply to the HHO world. (One such is a judge, who was unimpressed by the physics explanation given in the FTC action against Dennis Lee, because Lee's company presented testimony from people who claimed they were getting as much as 200% better fuel efficiency. I am sure the FTC will prevail, but they will need to present real dyno tests.)

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 8:38 PM

Hey Ken, Take as many pictures as possible throughout the testing procedures. You or someone you can delegate that little task to. We have a few publications we can send this information out to that would be delighted with the testing methods you've indicated and some I'm sure you'll ad to the procedures before then. I might even consider flying out there to cover this little event. You have my private e-mail. Tim

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#233
In reply to #11

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 9:00 PM

So Tim, how is the Auto-X car you and Ken are working on coming along?

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#31
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 1:00 PM

Here is the thing about these green energy scams, even if your data disproves the stated performance of HHO. It will quickly be indetified as only representative for that equipment under those specific conditions you used to conduct the test. The scammer will quickly identify that you needed to use their equipment or a different set of conditions. Maybe it doesn't work with that engine, maybe that HHO system is a scam and the others are not, maybe the fuel, air intake, or HHO system needed to be tuned to a different setting, maybe you needed to operate with out some component of the engine, and so on ad infinitum. The really scientifically valid point would be obvious would be how the system intakes were tuned. You may want to consider a range of adjustments within the typical ranges of products sold, just just beyond these specified ranges maybe even up to 5% hydrogen to gasoline (this seems like a whole lot of hydrogen if it is 5% by mass that is a little over 14% molar, which means you'd burn one gallon of water for approximately every 7 to 8 gallons of gasoline).

Also, there is the societal consideration of burning clean potable water in cars, given the prevalence of drought. Obviously because electrolysis releases the chlorine with hydrogen to form HCl, you won't want any chlorine salts in the water. I guess we could desalinate, but then watching the environmental upraor over desalination for drinking water...

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#32
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 1:47 PM

All very good points.

Within the limits of time I can devote to this, I'll try to test a range of delivery rates (perhaps using bottled H2 for the higher rates) and I may even try some of the ridiculous stuff (magnets, etc). But you are precisely correct: there will always be complaints such as: you failed to turn around three times and click your heels, as our manual clearly states you must do.

(this seems like a whole lot of hydrogen if it is 5% by mass that is a little over 14% molar, which means you'd burn one gallon of water for approximately every 7 to 8 gallons of gasoline)

Yes. What is particularly funny is the fact that some vendors claim large amounts of HHO, but small amounts of water depletion. Makes one wonder... just where might this HHO be coming from?

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 2:50 PM

Maybe they have discovered an unbelievably efficient way to translate energy back into large organized structures of mass, such as hydrogen. I would have to do some calculation, but i think it would require a lot of energy, considering the conversion of mass to energy when you fuse tritium into helium is huge, and it represents a relatively small portion of the mass lost for each atom fused.

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#112
In reply to #32

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 11:41 PM

...."(this seems like a whole lot of hydrogen if it is 5% by mass that is a little over 14% molar, which means you'd burn one gallon of water for approximately every 7 to 8 gallons of gasoline)

Yes. What is particularly funny is the fact that some vendors claim large amounts of HHO, but small amounts of water depletion. Makes one wonder... just where might this HHO be coming from?"

The ANSWER to thats is...

IN ONE GALLON OF WATER THERE IS 1860 GALLONS OF HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN GASES... WATER IS AMAZING THAT WAY.

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#113
In reply to #112

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/04/2009 9:24 AM

IN ONE GALLON OF WATER THERE IS 1860 GALLONS OF HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN GASES... WATER IS AMAZING THAT WAY.

please correct my math if I missed

1860 x 3.875 = 7207 liters

1liter ICE[internal combustion engine] x 2000 rpm = 2000lpm

7207 x 20 = 144159 / 2000 = 72 minutes of operation per gallon of water consumed

I multiplied by 20, assuming a 5% enrichment of HHO. to get the total amount of air & other gases being drawn in through the intake.

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#116
In reply to #113

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/04/2009 1:49 PM

WE are not trying to make enough hydrogen and oxygen to RUN an engine...

WE would need more that can be made "on demand"... maybe if you had a tanker truck full of hydrogen fallowing your car around... but then your timing would need adjustments .... and Major alterations to the motor , and it would be silly as well

This unit that we can not wait to test....makes 15 gallons of flammable gases per hour... so... if you figured it out 1 gallon of water would last for 124 hours or 5.166666 days.

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#128
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 12:20 PM

What size powerplant?

my assumptions were converting gallons to liters, 5% enrichment per liter of powerplant @ 2000 rpm.

Gallons as a unit of volume wouldn't be typical, cubic feet for volume of gases

Here's a great link for converting most any unit of measure: http://joshmadison.com/article/convert-for-windows

Tell us more ben!

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 7:29 PM

I will take some good advice...it would be best if I hold my response ... I will have to wait until we test...

I hope then every ones questions will be answered... in a manner that is acceptable to all on CR4...

through all of this I hope we can enlighten CR4 and educate the public...

I am waiting to hear from...the "MAN" "handling" these tests... there is still discussion need I with him... THANKS EVERY ONE

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#130
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 7:49 PM

Good luck Ben, hope all goes well for you and your Dad, Ky.

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#115
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/04/2009 12:20 PM

Gasses (including water vapor) are never measured in gallons by any competent person.

Any measurement of a volume of a gas or vapor must specify the pressure, or it is meaningless.

The volume of vapor produced at standard pressure by vaporizing any liquid will be of the order of 2000 times the volume of the room temperature liquid. That's no special property of water.

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#117
In reply to #115

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/04/2009 2:11 PM

sorry I will not put hydrogen and oxygen under pessure...

and since I don't have these types of measurements available to me... I just displace water using quarts and gallons for measurments...

if you vaporize water its just steam... it would expand just as you say.... but vaporized water will not burn..

I think water is amazing... it can be a solid, a liquid, it can be steam vapor, and also...hydogen and oxygen...and you can take hydrogen and oxygen and recombine them to make electricity . Water can give life and take life ... Water can smooth hard rocks over time... and it can spilt a rocks over night..

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#119
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 12:19 AM

If your hydrogen and/or oxygen is/are in any kind of container, then they ARE under pressure. Remember that one atmosphere near sea level is just under 15 pounds per square inch (of pressure). If your gasses and/or vapors are not under pressure, then they can't be forced into a cylinder, carburetor, fuel injector, mixing chamber, storage chamber, or anything else.

I did NOT say high pressure, just pressure...

We commonly speak as though the intake stroke of a piston was 'sucking' fuel and air from somewhere. 'Sucking' does NOT exist! Fluids move from regions of higher (absolute) pressure into regions of lower pressure. PERIOD.

Assuming you bubble the HHO into a container previously filled with water, the pressure in that container may be slightly below atmospheric pressure, but under most configurations it will be slightly to significantly higher than atmospheric pressure. In any case, it is always under pressure, or you've lost it!

I certainly agree that water is amazing stuff, and our very existence is totally dependent on its physical and chemical properties. Of course, if it didn't have those properties, we wouldn't be here to think and worry about it!

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#121
In reply to #119

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 12:51 AM

ok your Right sir... at sometimes it would be under minimal pressuer...

but when its on a little Honda or a 18 wheeler the container producing the hydrogen and oxygen is under a slight vacuum.. depending on how much air is going into the breather.... WE always use the breather as the introduction point...

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#122
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 1:17 AM

The point he was making is there is no such animal as vacuum. The partial pressure would be unlikely to exceed 14.7 but as it approached zero your water would boil before being split into its elements.

The intake manifold pressure will be below 14.7 unless boosted. The "producer container" will split water into quasi HHO at a pressure above the intake manifold and push the HHO to the lesser pressure of the intake manifold.

Vacuum and cold are not what they seem. Lack of or lesser pressure and lack of or lesser heat respectively are better ways to understand the dynamics of their use.

Did some very serious study on refrigeration. It will not make any sense until you understand vacumm and cold.

Brad

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#123
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 1:29 AM

I see your point... thanks ..

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#125
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 1:43 AM

Anytime and expect enjoy to be enlightened in return.

Brad

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#127
In reply to #125

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 8:03 AM

U V

Anytime and expect enjoy to be enlightened in return

.

I am still with you guys, since days now. If one blinks, potential information could be gone. Tenacity can not be a proof of concept. Trying harder only hurts the ones that are truly in the know. If you don't know the true discipline of music how can one appreciate an orchestra?

If I fall off the wall (fence), after I have put my thoughts/ideas forward and suggest different ways of approaching the matter, no one will be able to put me back together again, if I fail that is.

Call me Humpty Dumpty, or what ever, but I insist you are being led down the wrong track. It is more to it than you think. Not long now and I'll have a paper, if that is what its supposed to be called or if that is what you are after.

Some time back it was suggested (on CR4) to not have any more HHO posts and now we are back to square one. No offense 78 ers. Let Ken do the deed and stop the boring conversations and hair splitting. It will take more than that to change what are facts. It seems that this is all more of a personal (sometimes) issue and not striving for excellence or refined/ratified achievements.

I will just sit on the fence and see how far speculation can be driven and how long it will take to get results. Compared to what I have in mind, you (the participants of this thread) are far behind and getting no/anywhere. I know it seems that I have a big mouth and nothing to show for it but wait and you will see. How long? Who knows, but I swear I will not be as repetitive and unproductive as some suggestions/technologies this thread has to offer.

UV, I just picked your reply button to enter this thread again and mean no affront against you, at all. Its just going on and on, with Ken on the sideline and sticking his neck out. Progress? I really don't think so.

With all due respect, Ky.

PS: I have companions now and I will not stir until I know. Makes it easier for all interested parties. And not so bloody boring.

PSS: Herunter mit den alten Zoepfen!

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#143
In reply to #121

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 10:58 PM

"but when its on a little Honda or a 18 wheeler the container producing the hydrogen and oxygen is under a slight vacuum.. depending on how much air is going into the breather.... WE always use the breather as the introduction point..."

By Breather, You are referring to the Air-Filter, right? I'm thinking before the "Mass Air Sensor" on an injected Engine, but after the Air-Filter. (I know that not all Fuel Injection systems use a "Mass-Air" unit, but most do, to tell the ECU what is going in, to compare with readings @ O2 sensors telling it what is coming out)

See the Red Arrow;

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#146
In reply to #143

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 11:19 PM

By Breather, You are referring to the Air-Filter, right?

Yes thats right

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#177
In reply to #143

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 8:43 PM

YUP.... thats all correct good sir...

we will drill and tap a thread right there... then we put a 3/8 elbow in for the h2 o2 supply line

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#131
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 7:37 AM

"Sucking' does NOT exist!"

Especially after the ceremony

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#133
In reply to #119

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 12:41 PM

Quote:

We commonly speak as though the intake stroke of a piston was 'sucking' fuel and air from somewhere. 'Sucking' does NOT exist! Fluids move from regions of higher (absolute) pressure into regions of lower pressure. PERIOD.

=====================================================

Sucking doesn't exist? Really???

Go out to Your Car, take the air-filter off, fire up the Engine then stick Your hand over the Intake Tube/Carburetor, the larger the displacement of the Engine, the more Vacuum force You will feel. Vacuum is REAL!

Next experiment, go to a Truck Stop ask one of the Truckers if You could stick Your hand in the intake pipe of their Large Diesel Engine, if they are Nice people they will say NO, but if they are Bad people, they'll say sure, then Laugh their asses off when You get sucked in up to Your Shoulder... If You don't lose Your Arm.

Sucking doesn't exist, Please!

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#134
In reply to #133

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 3:23 PM

I repeat: 'Sucking' does NOT exist!

The term 'suck' implies that something in the intake is 'pulling' air or whatever into that intake. Pulling requires an attraction force of some kind. Please tell me the source of that attraction.

It is the roughly 15 pounds per square inch of atmospheric pressure pushing on the other side of your hand that forces it against the reduced pressure of the intake. The (absolute) pressure inside that intake is significantly less than atmospheric, but it is not zero, and certainly not negative.

Vacuum cleaners don't 'suck' dust into their intakes - the wind blowing into the region of reduced pressure carries the dust with it.

Take away the atmospheric pressure, and neither an engine nor a vacuum cleaner will work.

The pressure of the HHO must be higher than the pressure of the intake of the engine, or none will enter.

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#140
In reply to #134

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 9:57 PM

"The term 'suck' implies that something in the intake is 'pulling' air or whatever into that intake. Pulling requires an attraction force of some kind. Please tell me the source of that attraction."

It is not in the Intake manifold, it is the downward motion of the Piston while the intake Valve is open that SUCKS air into the cylinder Through the manifold.

Incandescent Light Bulbs work because the filament is inside a "Vacuum" no Oxygen(Air).

So You are saying the theory of "Vacuum" is a Myth?

An Internal Combustion Engine that does not have a measurable Vacuum at the intake manifold does not RUN.

If You have a Super-Charger "Belt driven", or Turbo-Charger "Exhaust driven", You are Pressurizing the atmospheric Air to force feed more into the Cylinder, but with the extra volume of Air an increase in fuel is often required. Many Modern Engine management computers can handle up to a certain "Boost" level (4-6PSI), beyond that a special "Brain" unit is required as well as a large Volume Fuel Pump. There is a heck of a lot of measurable "Vacuum" at the inlet of either forced induction system!!!

This Roush Mustang, which I photographed Yesterday Produces 435HP, the Normally Aspirated "32-Valve 4.6L Engine" produces about 300HP.

"It is the roughly 15 pounds per square inch of atmospheric pressure pushing on the other side of your hand that forces it against the reduced pressure of the intake. The (absolute) pressure inside that intake is significantly less than atmospheric, but it is not zero, and certainly not negative."

IT IS NEGATIVE, that's why a Mechanic has a Vacuum gauge in his Tool Box.

"Take away the atmospheric pressure, and neither an engine nor a vacuum cleaner will work."

What is the Atmospheric pressure at 20,000 feet? 45,000 Feet? You can't Breathe at these altitudes, but an "Electric Vacuum Cleaner" can & does work, and if you hook up the exhaust of the "Vacuum Cleaner" to a face mask, You can breathe the now pressurized AIR.

This makes travel in Airplanes possible at High Altitudes possible. You know, those shiny Cigar shaped objects in the Sky, that make You run to Your Cave once in a while? The Jet Engines have to operate at fast enough speeds to maintain enough air intake for combustion to occur at High Altitudes, if the Aircraft slows down too much, the Jet Engine will stall.

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#150
In reply to #140

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 2:01 AM

I'll try one more time: You have either ignored or not understood my use of the term (absolute) pressure. Please look up 'absolute' and 'gauge' pressure. 'Gauge' pressure uses one atmosphere of pressure as zero, so anything less that atmospheric pressure is considered negative. This is an artificial zero level, similar to the 'zero' values on the Fahrenheit and Celsius temperature scales. The temperature scales that have correct zero values are the Rankine and Kelvin Scales. There is a close relation between absolute temperature and absolute pressure; the only situation where the absolute pressure can approach zero is when the absolute temperature approaches zero.

"Incandescent Light Bulbs work because the filament is inside a "Vacuum" no Oxygen(Air)." That is partly correct. Oxygen in the bulb would react with the hot filament, literally burning it, so they remove as much air as possible. In a tungsten bulb that contains a vacuum, the tungsten sublimates fairly rapidly, blackening the inside of the glass and reducing the light output. Starting around 1913, inert gasses like nitrogen and argon replaced the vacuum, significantly extending the life of the lamp. More recently the introduction of halogens in quartz enclosures made possible the operation at much higher temperatures, giving off much more light for a given electrical energy.

"So You are saying the theory of "Vacuum" is a Myth?" That is CORRECT, in the manner that most people, apparently including you, think of a vacuum! A vacuum cleaner reduces the pressure in the hose, so air from the surrounding higher (atmospheric) pressure rushes into the lower pressure area, carrying dust with it.

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#160
In reply to #150

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 10:57 PM

Vacuum/Pressure Gauge

Vacuum is Not measured in PSI!

Don't try again to convince Me that an "Internal Combustion Engine" does not produce Vacuum at it's inlet, You will Never succeed...

A small block V-8 can "Suck" in 500+ Cubic Feet of Air every Minute (some even more), and then compresses it, after the explosion in the Cylinders, the left-over gases/hydrocarbons are less dense, that is why the exhaust pipe can be smaller than the intake pipe without creating a restriction.

A 4.6 Liter Engine moves 4.52 Liters of Air EVERY Revolution... 500RPM = 2260 Cubic Liters of Air Moved.

If the Catalytic Converter gets plugged it creates pressure in the front exhaust pipe, and the Car will barely be able to run, if it can at all. Because if the Cylinders cannot get rid of the burnt gases it doesn't have the ability to suck in more Air/Fuel on it's next stroke. I have personally measured over 30 PSI in the Exhaust systems of Vehicles I have worked on.

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#164
In reply to #160

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 1:17 AM

Cyberfool

I've been watching this thread for quite awhile and it seems to have moved FAR from its original intention, which was to comment on the HHO tests to be performed and to suggest added tests/methods or alternative tests/methods.

Since others have suggested a need to accurately measure the gasoline consumed over a period/distance on a dynamometer, I would suggest disconnecting the cars fuel tank and fuel pump and using a finely incremented external clear bottle with a capacity of 1 - 2 gallons connected directly to the fuel injection system via an auxilliary electric pump of sufficient pressure to run the engine at any rpm without fail.

This would allow a very accurate measurment of fuel consumed and can be applied over time. I believe that this would be the best way to do this measurement.

As to your assertion that vacuum is not pressure because the picture of the gauge you posted is measured in inches of mercury on the left and psi on the right is patently Absurd! Please note that the needle on the gauge is pointing to zero while not connected to anything. Since atmospheric pressure of approx. 14.7 psi is currently entering the nozzle, how do you account for the zero reading? Hmmm....

Atmospheric 'pressure' (barometric) is measured in inches of mercury. If inches of mercury denotes a vacuum then how the hell do you breathe? (without a smoke)

Please follow the link below regarding 'pressure' and 'vacuum' for a very well stated treatise on the subject. I believe the first paragraph should help with your understanding. Also, further down on the link page is a link to 'auto manifold' pressure which you may find helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manometer

If you have any questions please state them and I will try to answer as simply as possible or I'm sure there are many others here who could help you.

Jeff

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#165
In reply to #164

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 1:57 AM

A SMART GUY ONCE SAID...."

I've been watching this thread for quite awhile and it seems to have moved FAR from its original intention, which was to comment on the HHO tests to be performed and to suggest added tests/methods or alternative tests/methods."

THANKS SMART GUY.....I AM STILL WAITING FOR AN UP DATE FROM BLINK.... HOW DOES HE THINK WE SHOUD PROCEED

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#167
In reply to #164

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 3:09 AM

GA From me, Ky.

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#169
In reply to #167

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 3:28 AM

Thank you ky, always appreciated.

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#170
In reply to #164

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 11:21 AM

I don't try to breath in a Vacuum, and You should not try it either.

Humans cannot overcome a severe drop in barometric pressure, that is why we cannot breath at High Altitudes, but these are not Vacuum conditions just low Pressure.

The gauge is preset @ "0" at the factory that made it to represent atmospheric pressure @ sea level so as not to confuse laypersons, but by the time the gauge measures a couple inches of Vacuum, barometric pressure has been overcome, and You can move a weight, like pickup a 15 pound bowling ball... Why am I debating this with You, and Dick???

If You say You can pickup a Bowling Ball with Your lips it is not because of Your Lungs, it is because You can manipulate the Volume of Air in Your Mouth in much the same way a Suction Cup holds an object on a Window.

I did go to the Wikipedia page, and read lots of the information regarding Pressure, and Vacuum. I agree that there is no such thing as "Absolute Vacuum", but anything over 25in/Hg is pretty darn close (or should it be under). Also see these Wiki1 Wiki2 pages, on the second link, pay special attention to the second paragraph, in relation to more information I have below.

An "I.C.E." can produce upwards of 19-22 inches of Vacuum (When corrected for atmospheric pressure it could indicate slightly less inches depends on the quality of the gauge, and whether it is a sealed, or vented unit), a Diesel usually produces less Vacuum than a Gas Engine, even though the Diesel has a Higher Compression ratio because of less Revolutions per/minute that is why a Diesel typically has a separate belt-driven "Vacuum" pump to operate the Vacuum assisted brakes in small Diesels... _ Or a different system to assist the driver in operating the brakes, either a belt driven hydraulic pump system (5-7 Liter Diesels), or compressed Air type (Big Rig).

I agree persueing this arguement is futile, not to mention off-Topic, I'm sure Ken/Blink would rather We moved the whole discussion to another Thread.

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#180
In reply to #170

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 4:21 AM

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vacuum-d_837.html

Vacuum
"Vacuum is defined as air pressure below atmospheric pressure"

"The vacuum level is the difference in pressure between the atmospheric pressure and the pressure in the evacuated system:

0% vacuum = 760 torr = 14.7 psia = 29.92 inc mercury abs = 101.4 kPa abs
50% vacuum = 380 torr = 7.3 psia = 15 inc mercury abs = 50.8 kPa abs
99.9% vacuum = 1 torr = 0.01934 psia = 0.03937 inc mercury abs = 1.3 kPa abs
For perfect vacuum (100%) - the pressure is 0 torr, 0 psia or 0 Pa abs."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suction

"Suction is the flow of a fluid into a partial vacuum, or region of low pressure. The pressure gradient between this region and the ambient pressure will propel matter toward the low pressure area. Suction is popularly thought of as an attractive effect, which is incorrect since vacuums do not innately attract matter. Dust being "sucked" into a vacuum cleaner is actually being pushed in by the higher pressure air on the outside of the cleaner."

"The higher pressure of the surrounding fluid can push matter into a vacuum but a vacuum cannot attract matter."

http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/39952/diagnostic_dilemmas_the_pressures_of_intake_manifold_vacuum_tests.aspx

Vacuum Terminology
"Intake manifold vacuum analysis can be a little tricky because the conventional term "intake manifold vacuum" is a technical misnomer. Technically speaking, the intake manifold must contain enough liquid fuel and air to support combustion, so what we have is not a complete vacuum, but an atmospheric "pressure differential" between the inside and outside of the intake manifold. A more current term refers to the pressure inside the intake manifold as Manifold Absolute Pressure or "MAP." As currently used, the terms "pressure differential," "MAP" and "intake manifold vacuum" refer to the difference between atmospheric and intake manifold pressures."

The word 'vacuum' has been incorrectly used for so long that it is now an accepted term for any pressure differential between atmospheric pressure and an actual vacuum (perfect vacuum). So be it.

By placing your hand over an open carburetor with the engine idling the 'suction' (another incorrectly used word) you feel is not suction because a 'vacuum' does not attract matter. You are feeling the higher atmospheric pressure pushing your hand down onto the carburetor due to the pressure differential between the atmosphere and the lower pressure of the intake manifold. That's just an irrefutable fact!

The same holds true for your 'suction' cup. By pressing the cup onto a smooth surface to allow a seal around the edges, you have essentially created a low pressure area under the cup so the cup will remain pressed against the surface by the higher atmospheric pressure until the seal is broken thus removing the force by equalizing the pressure on both sides and the cup falls off.

This is all elementary/middle school stuff.

I agree that this is all off-topic to this thread but I believe it goes to credibility. Are you just being silly by not acknowledging any of this just to keep an argument discussion going (for whatever pleasure that gives you) or do you really believe what you've been saying? (about everything)

I'll let your answer be my guide.

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#189
In reply to #180

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 11:59 AM

Quote:

Vacuum

"Vacuum is defined as air pressure below atmospheric pressure"

You Said IT...

Look the term is called "Partial Vacuum", OK, there is no such thing as a perfect Vacuum even in the vast open regions of Space, it is NOT called a perfect Vacuum.

But if You have a small hose plugged into the port on the intake that normally is used to "Vacuum assist" the Brakes, You could use it to lift a weight like a bowling ball which as You know has approximately 15 pounds of atmospheric pressure pressing down, sideways, up, from all sides (at sea level), in addition to the effects of Gravity pulling it down. Yet when the ball plugs the hose, one can lift the ball using the rubber hose.

When the Hose is plugged, where is the Air flow?

Someone asked Me "What is the force that causes the Sucking?"

I already said, "The Piston's downward movement while the intake Valve is open."

======================================

Hydraulics, & Pneumatics both deal with drawing in, and expelling, are You calling those Sciences "Bogus"?

Atmospheric pressure has very little effect on a 400BAR system... But it does on a 3BAR System.

Next You guys will be saying Gravity doesn't exist... No, I'm not being "Silly" when I say "if You keep being hung up by terminology, and bickering, nothing gets done".

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#190
In reply to #189

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 1:11 PM

Thank you.

Your reply was as expected.

Noise for the sake of noise.

Its a little chilly here so I'm going to go ignite a log to release the trapped fire inside of it hoping that it will draw the cold air out of the room.

Conversation concluded.

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#200
In reply to #150

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 9:38 AM

Vacuum is a myth? Maybe what you meant was absolute vacuum?

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#205
In reply to #200

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 11:54 AM

I quote from my post 150: "So You are saying the theory of "Vacuum" is a Myth?" That is CORRECT, in the manner that most people, apparently including you, think of a vacuum!" (underlining just added for emphasis)

I gave up trying to educate Cyberfool, but since you bring it up again, I'll give it one more try:

The only force that any gas can exert is the result of (usually very large numbers of) atoms or molecules colliding with the object experiencing the force. When a ball bounces off the fence of a playing field, the fence experiences a force directed generally away from the field. If there were a continuous stream of balls being thrown against the fence, it would experience a continuous outward force. Now if the fence separated two playing fields, and an equal number of balls were thrown with equal force from both sides, the net force on the fence would be zero.

If you hold your hand out in still air, you feel no force, because the number and average speed of the air molecules striking the front of your hand is the same as the number and average speed of the air molecules striking the back of your hand. Taking a hand as roughly 4" by 6", the front and the back of the hand each have roughly 24 square inches of surface. At 14.7 pounds per square inch (standard sea-level atmospheric pressure), that is a total force of around 350 pounds pushing on each side of the hand, but since the two forces are pushing in opposite directions, they cancel, and you feel nothing.

If you reduce either the number of molecules or the average speed of the molecules on ONE side of the hand, then the force exerted on that side of the hand will be reduced, and the forces on the two sides of the hand will no longer add to zero. The hand will experience the sum of the two forces, which will be a force directed from the side with the more or faster molecules, toward the side with fewer or slower molecules. You have almost undoubtedly experienced this sticking your hand out the window of a moving car. Note that there is nothing pulling on the rearward side of the hand, only a reduced speed of the molecules there, so a reduced push. The average speed of air molecules is the speed of sound, vastly more than the speed of the car, so there are still plenty of molecules striking the rearward side of the hand, but the average speed of those striking the rearward side is less than the average speed of those striking the forward side, so the hand experiences a force directed to the rear.

When a piston moves downward on the intake stroke, the molecules in the space above the piston (which includes the manifold, since the intake valve is open) move to fill the newly enlarged volume. Since the same number of molecules now fills a larger volume, there are now fewer molecules colliding with any given surface of that volume. There are still collisions of the gas molecules with that surface, so there is still pressure, but because there are fewer molecules, the pressure is reduced. That pressure can only reach zero if the number of collisions reaches zero, and as you have implied, that doesn't even occur in outer space. If you place your hand over the intake to the manifold (yes, I've done it), you experience that reduced force. Part of those 350 pounds pushing on the back of your hand is no longer balanced by an equal force on the front of the hand, so your hand is pushed in the direction toward the side with reduced pressure.

One last time: there is NO force pulling on the inside of the hand, only a reduced pushing force.

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#207
In reply to #205

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 12:21 PM

I understand force. I also understand vacuum. When you have reached a significant vacuum you are able to remove contaminants from the vessel being evacuated. Mostly moisture is removed from the air and surfaces while the vessel is being evacuated. This moisture shows up as a decrease in vacuum after a set amount of time having previously tested for vacuum leaks. Vacuum is to negative pressure what power is to watts. It depends on who is talking and what they are talking about. A vacuum pump works the same way as an engine on the intake stroke. A negative pressure is produced by the downward motion of the piston. That negative pressure can be read using a vacuum gauge. The difference with the negative pressure and vacuum is the absence of matter in a vacuum. Negative pressure contains matter in the engine since incoming air is replacing the negative pressure. If you are evacuating a vessel for removal of contaminants, you are using vacuum. Vacuum is present in the form of negative air pressure or differential air pressure. The evacuated vessel can come close to a perfect vacuum, but can never achieve it. The difference between this and an engine is the introduction of air filling up the void produced by the negative pressure of the engine during the intake stroke. That is my rudimentary and probably barbaric understanding of the two.

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#212
In reply to #207

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 1:46 PM

Haha, negative pressure. There is no such thing as negative pressure, only a relative difference in pressure we would call negative gauge pressure or vacuum in one reference system (or positive pressure in another reference system). Negative air pressure and differential air pressure are the same thing. Negative gauge pressure and vacuum would also be the same thing, and depend upon what you use as the reference pressure for comparison. Vacuum is a positive pressure equivalent of negative gauge pressure. Vacuum is not a unit of mesurement, inches of water, hg, pci, etc. are units of measurement like watts. Watts are a unit of measurement of power. Vacuum is just a lower pressure referenced against some other pressure system expressed as positive units instead of negative units. Both negative pressure and vacuum are a reduction in pressure typically caused by a reduction in matter. Vacuum is expressed in units of pressure, not in units of mass per unit volume. A true expression of a reduction in matter would be expressed in either mass or moles per unit volume. The only diference between vacuum, negative guage pressure, and differential pressure the expression of the units as positive or negative, and can be the reference against which you compare.

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#216
In reply to #212

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 3:15 PM

In my experience vacuum is measured in Torr.

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#218
In reply to #216

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 4:04 PM

"a unit of pressure equal to 0.001316 atmosphere; named after Torricelli wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context"

"torr n. , pl. torr . A unit of pressure that is equal to approximately 1.316 × 10 atmospheres or 133.3 pascals."

"Definition of torr · unit of measure for the pressure exerted by 1 mm of mercury, equal to 1/760th of standard atmospheric pressure"

The first three definitions brought up by a Google search for "definition of torr".

Unfortunately, the second one omitted the (-3) exponent on the power of 10. All three agree: the Torr is a unit of pressure!

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#201
In reply to #140

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 9:40 AM

Just another example of a mechanic correcting an "EXPERT".

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#135
In reply to #133

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 3:28 PM

Sucking doesn't exist? Really???

Yes Really, no such thing.

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#136
In reply to #135

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 4:43 PM

This sucks! I'm out of here, Ky.

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#80
In reply to #2

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 1:23 AM

"I would think that if HHO technology really worked then engine manufacturers (gasoline / petrol and diesel) around the world would latch on to this technology."

You cannot be serious.

If that were a stand up statement Detroit would be cranking out high efficiency diesels - but they aren't.

Emotion, not logic, rules the boardrooms of the manufacturers.

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 1:51 AM

the answer is at the bottom of your post...

Emotion, not logic, rules the boardrooms of the manufacturers.

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#85
In reply to #82

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:07 AM

Does your device use KOH?

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#118
In reply to #85

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/04/2009 8:40 PM

no ...too inefficient

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#83
In reply to #80

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 1:51 AM

Ford and others builds top notch diesels in Europe (see the Focus) that hit or exceed 40% brake efficiency. The issue is not that they don't want to bring them to North America, it is simply that they have not had low cost emission treatment technology ready (as fast as VW) for controlling trace particulate matter and NOx.

Another factor, has been cheap fuel. We have not needed to worry too much about fuel cost until last year. Now we are taking note of better technology. Honda will also soon be releasing a diesel Accord, if they finish their development program on time. The Detroit 3 (or 2) will hopefully follow soon.

With regard to HHO or similar technology, I have not seen a single piece of objective test data in all of the posts on the internet. We need test cycles, data, graphs, and analysis so that the level of error in the test measurements is considered. That is what engine manufacturers need to consider new technology.

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#95
In reply to #83

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 6:42 AM

Good post.

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#120
In reply to #83

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 12:27 AM

I believe Andy and I just gave you your first GA. (That's pretty good for only 14 posts...) Keep it up!

Dick

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#141
In reply to #80

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 10:21 PM

Now what do you suppose the natural progression of events that would happen if we were to walk into one of the big 2-3 with this , what i think would happen would be one of two things ... one scenario would be they'd shrug you off or give you the run around ... or 2 they would ask you for a sample unit that they could test on some of their vehicles to test performance .. now with the unit in their possession , if it meet with their expectations it would be taken apart , copied and put into production , in other words they'd steel it , but they can't do that you say , yes they would , because they know and so do you that its the guy with the deepest pockets who will win a court case in our society , right or wrong has nothing to do with it , they're collection of payroll lawyers would stall it for years till your broke ... thats reality ... We wouldn't even leave one of our units someplace for testing unless we were standing there beside it , patent or no patent , that doesn't stop anything nowadays..

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#145
In reply to #141

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 11:16 PM

This stuff [hho] has been around for most of a century, You are certainly right about patents, if you can't afford to defend it you don't have anything....

Even if you doubt Detroit, what about Tokyo or Berlin... any technology that makes sense money wise will be implemented by some company somewhere.

Admittedly things that were stupid when oil is $20/bbl, seem brillant when oil is $100/bbl...

20% is a huge improvement Volvo, mercedes, isuzu, hino... will jump on anything that will give them an advantage in the marketplace.

Data talks & .........................

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#142
In reply to #80

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 10:32 PM

"If that were a stand up statement Detroit would be cranking out high efficiency diesels - but they aren't."

No Detroit isn't so much, but Volvo, Volkswagen, BMW, & others Are. We Americans are too accustomed to cheaper Fuel costs compared with Europe, that is why the improved efficiency systems are slower to take hold Here.

Sometimes Corporations feel that they dictate what is available, but really it is the Consumer that decides what they will buy. That is why Detroit almost shut down in the 70's when the market was flooded with Econo-Box Cars, after the first major Fuel delivery problem.

In the 90's everyone started driving SUV's, and Small Pickups even if they didn't need the higher payload capability of the Vehicles, People had gotten used to the Fuel Prices, and supply seemed endless.

Our supply of Oil Will run out, no matter How You extract the energy from a Fuel source, You still need a Fuel. - Whether You are talking about Oil, Coal, Wood, Hydrogen, Nuclear, Vegetable Oil, or Peanut Butter, only a couple sources are renewable.

Solar, Hydro-Electric, & Wind Power weren't mentioned above because they are conversion techniques not Fuel sources.

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#418
In reply to #2

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/07/2009 12:53 AM

WE have posted the emissions results from a 18 wheeler on the john henry web site..... it shows over 30% decrease of emissions... if any one is curious

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#419
In reply to #418

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/07/2009 1:08 AM

Thank you, Ky.

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#5

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 11:54 PM

I'm pretty much in the same position as awelch: anxiously awaiting your results (first time I've seen a known credible person attempting to validate HHO scientifically).

Dick

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#6

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 5:52 AM

I think the benefits of Hydrogen as a Fuel source is terrific, and Ask anyone in a flood prone area they'll tell You to convert as much of the Water to Gas as possible, RIGHT NOW...

But the Boost these HHO systems actually provide, probably has more to do with the Oxygen being released from the Water than the Hydrogen. Oxygen accelerates the burning of anything.

A guy I know, once experemented with compressed oxygen as a turbo boost in a car, by using the regulator setup from an oxy/acetelene Torch, and the valve used on the cutting head, @ 2PSI in the line, when He was at wide open throttle The Car transformed into a whole different animal (figuratively).

It was like that scene from "Lone Wolf Macquaid" When He turns on the Big Blower with the electro-magnetic clutch, and drives out of a Pit with his 4X4 Ramcharger... OK, not that exciting, but it was an impressive change.

Later though He told me He had carried the experiment too far, He had gone above 5PSI in the line, and when He tore down the failed engine, the Aluminum Pistons had left melted streaks down the cylinder walls...

Be Careful

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#86
In reply to #6

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:12 AM

ding ding ding... frist prize goes to CYBERFOOL for figuring some thing out....

"But the Boost these HHO systems actually provide, probably has more to do with the Oxygen being released from the Water than the Hydrogen. Oxygen accelerates the burning of anything."

maybe you should change your name...

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#87
In reply to #86

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:21 AM

But there is far more oxygen going in the engine through the intake port (21% oxygen by volume). Is your oxygen special?

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:46 AM

The parts per million of atmospheric hydrogen and oxygen are is low...

think of this unit as a enriched air system...

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#96
In reply to #88

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 6:45 AM

The REALLY bad part is that you believe yourself......!!!!

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#89
In reply to #87

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:56 AM

Yup, because it comes out of the HHO Generator in a Higher concentration than the ratio in Normal Air, so it Adds to the "21%" (by volume @ sea level) boosting it, and if a few Hydrogen atoms get sucked in too, all the better to make the (boom boom) in the Cylinder.

If you change the ratio of the Air from 21% Oxygen to a higher number, then the fuel burns more completely/efficiently in the Engine, whatever the fuel happens to be, it needs Oxygen, & an Ignition source to Burn.

I await more results of course like many others here, as to how much gases are created, and at what expense, with these "HHO generators", and what measurable impacts they have on the Engine.

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#97
In reply to #89

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 6:46 AM

??????

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#90
In reply to #86

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:58 AM

I like My Name

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#8

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 12:00 PM

Have been watching the controversy of hho for a week or so now.

I am with you on the "something for nothing" deal.

This john henry thing also sounds too good to be true. It is going to be interesting to see what you find in your test.

I am somewhat believing the results that some people claim to get. However I have had never had people work with hho, but other deals to save fuel and put it to the "MAN". Some really do work but not as well advertised and of coarse some are complete BS (gas line magnets, etc).

I posted a thing on the other thread about just using hydrogen from a cylinder and regulate that to see if you get results from that, or for that matter oxygen from a cylinder too. That would take the power draw from producing the electricty from the engine and would be notable to see if adding hydrogen and oxygen do provide additional positive effects and at what percentages make the changes necessary to make this stuff worth while. I seems like the on board generation system is almost another monster project to get figured out.

I am constantly checking mileage and trying find a better way to use less fuel. I know you are going to get real scientfic with your tests but what is real results to most people is when they can get something that they see at the gas pump. I have a route that I use and fill the vehicle with fuel taking lots of time to be sure that the tank is really full. Most of my cars will take a gallon to two gallons after the gas pump handle clicks off, I have found wild swings in MPG numbers just because a real measurement of fuel used is incorrrect.

I know too that some times these "tests" can be changed by driving habits that are "normal" and then when the "test" is being done an egg suddenly appears between the drivers foot and the gas pedal.

Another thing that comes up is dollars per mile. Many times i have added up what it cost for whatever modifications I have made and figured the milage and found it to be a positive change only to see that the payback is in the 100,000's of miles (blueprint, balance, custom carb mods, dist advance curve etc). Many times the results were positive but the vehicle ran so much better the improved perfomance got the customer to drive it harder and, well you know the rest........

I have not gotten to test that on board manure digester yet. I have plenty of BS around here but I need to find the time to come up with a system. HA HA. I am anxious to see your results of the HHO test. Keep up the good work. I enjoy your posts. ric......

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#17
In reply to #8

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 1:26 AM

I posted a thing on the other thread about just using hydrogen from a cylinder and regulate that to see if you get results from that, or for that matter oxygen from a cylinder too.

I've been thinking along those lines too. The idea of oxygen from a cylinder is not too appealing, because if there were a leak and some warm grease, I could reduce my car to smoldering rubble (although if I use this only when on a dyno, and feed it by hand from a welding torch, for example, then I could do it more-or-less safely). A lot of bottled H2 experiments have been done at universities, etc. and the results are as expected, with very much larger amounts of H2 required than the HHO units produce (by factors of around 40).

Good suggestion, in any case. I'll see what I can do along these lines. (Of course this is making the kid in me come out... it's always fun to play with flammable gases... we could try propane, acetylene, etc... ketchup, mustard...)

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 2:21 AM

.....farts!

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#137
In reply to #17

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 6:51 PM

"Good suggestion, in any case. I'll see what I can do along these lines. (Of course this is making the kid in me come out... it's always fun to play with flammable gases... we could try propane, acetylene, etc... ketchup, mustard...)"

Propane is already being used.

Acetylene I just learned recently has been experimented with, but Acetylene is a corrosive, so I don't imagine it lasts very long in a Cast Iron/Steel block, also any blow-by at the Piston's rings would seriously contaminate the Engine's Oil.

Ketchup & Mustard... I'll assume You were kidding, but Ketchup is Higher in sugar than Ice Cream, so that's a no-no, Mustard Gas, isn't that banned?

Bio-Fuels made with Peanut/Vegetable Oils look promising as long as You have a pre-heater in the Tank to keep it liquefied, You just have to watch for the Convoy of Driver's following You because Your Car's exhaust smells like Roasted Peanuts, or French Fries.

Jenny Craig, & Weight Watchers Stock price would go up in 6 months.

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#18
In reply to #8

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 2:02 AM

I have not gotten to test that on board manure digester yet. I have plenty of BS around here but I need to find the time to come up with a system. HA HA.

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#91
In reply to #8

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 3:15 AM

alot of hydrogen scammers SELL "sensor trickers" and "scan gauges" , with the unit that they put on your car.... they will even calibrate you scan gauge for you.. gee thanks.. but guess what? even if it did work on a car it would take years to pay for its self... hydrogen on cars is a waste of time and no benifit unless the unit was FREE... then you would save a whole 10 bucks a week...

you said...

"I have a route that I use and fill the vehicle with fuel taking lots of time to be sure that the tank is really full. Most of my cars will take a gallon to two gallons after the gas pump handle clicks off, I have found wild swings in MPG numbers just because a real measurement of fuel used is incorrect"

THE pumps are not very accurate ... some times you have air bubbles stuck in your tank, and also the expansion of the fuel when hot or cold... and we have also found, once in a while, we get a poor tank of gas...

What you can do for a test... is run your car all most empty... just until your gas light comes on.... use that as a marking point... make sure it was not a hill or a turn that made it come on too soon... just turn your ignition off and on to make sure your "need gas light" is really on.... pour in two gallons... and set you tripometer... drive until your light is "really" on agian... you can get more accurate results this way... but you maybe late for work or run out of gas... when your light comes on you will only have one gallon left... don't use this gallon... it would be drirty...

ps... make note ... if you use "net" or "gross" gallon measurements

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#106
In reply to #91

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 5:24 PM

A couple of gallons is a very small sample, 100's or 1000's of gallons might give you a chance for an accurate test.

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#111
In reply to #106

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 10:55 PM

It can be surpriseingly consistant withn 1 mile at the most try it sometime , as far as a quick test lets see if it changed anything answer .... it works

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#302
In reply to #8

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/18/2009 3:15 PM

Substituting something you don't understand (HHO GAS) with something you do understand is ridiculous. Test the gas (HHO) as it is used in an actual installation. Too many "Experts" substitute instead of testing the device as it is supposed to be used according to the manufacturer. Plenty of times the expert will substitute his own method rather than following directions. An example is when someone like Blinky says that these devices do not produce enough of anything to be capable of changing mileage except in a negative way because of the amp draw. Therefor he substitutes his own idea of how it should work by trying to make more gas and he gets no results except for a loss in mileage.

Ehnrico, Onecraftydude, Ben78 all say their system works. They have a specific way of installing and maintaining the amount of gas they find the best results with. Any deviation from instructions by the manufacturer will give you negative results. It is easy to prove a person wrong by changing one seemingly insignificant thing.

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#10

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 6:09 PM

I'm in.

Not much to say at the moment but will have some news "soon". This news will blow John Henry and others out of the water (pun intended). Not that I am saying that what is suggested here is not true or exaggerated but what I have been working on is so much more advanced that I am going to wait a while before coming out of the closet.

Watch this space, Ky.

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#12

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 9:56 PM

"(on the order of 1/1000 of the total)." so you will need some substantial runs. Do you have that kind of precision on the flow rates. Scan gage shows mpg to one decimal place. As you have pointed out in prior posts, the energy expected from the Hydrigen is low.

At one decimal place, tenth of a gallon, to find one one thousandth of fuel consumption, we would need 100 gallons per A and per B run.1/10th of a gallon is 1/1000 of 100 gallons...

I believe that the signal to noise ratio in this scheme will be too low.

will stay on this. You've demonstrated a good faith experimental design. But I suspect you lack the precision to measure the variable being tested. The "order of magnitude' of the contribution of the Hydrogen will be below threshold of detection, and probably below variation of conditions between runs.

Hats off to you, Blink

milo

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 11:11 PM

If he can measure to the nearest 0.1 gallon, in 30 mpg that's 1 in 300, or 0.3%.

If that isn't sufficient precision to detect a difference, then the device/system isn't worth its cost, and Ken will have proved his point. In fact, I believe that will be adequate precision to detect a lowering of overall fuel efficiency.

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 12:59 AM

Certainly, I don't expect to be able to measure the expected loss in efficiency. The draw of a typical unit is only 100-150 watts, so if the system operates at a total loss, that small draw on my car's 100,000 watt engine will be difficult to measure.* But if any of the claims surrounding HHO injection can be believed, then I should measure a gain in efficiency of 25%, 50% 100% or more, which the Scan Gauge can measure quite easily.

The Scan Gauge reads fuel flow directly (by measuring fuel injector pulse width), which I imagine it does to 8 bits (or possibly 16 -- the unit itself is on the way, so I'll need to play around with it.)** I imagine that I can correlate Scan Gauge readings with dyno readings fairly closely: for example, if the Scan Gauge is reading 25.4 mpg, I would not be shocked if the actual mpg is between 25.1 and 25.7. Flick on the HHO switch, and we "should" see at least a 25% increase to 31.8. If we accept Dennis Lee's 50% "guarantee" (and his claims of test data supporting a 261% improvement) we should see see the mpg jump to 35.1 (or 91.7 mpg, for the 261% improvement). If Lee's claim is to believed, if I fail to back off on the throttle when I turn the unit on, the tires might start smoking. (I wonder if I should wear a crash helmet during this testing.)

Steve Gronka, another promoter and fledgling vendor of this stuff, claims a 30% increase in torque, which I should be able to feel quite easily, without even firing up the Scan Gauge. This is gonna be great... a 91.7 mpg car which blows away all the Accords at the drag strip.

* the Scan Gauge will do all sorts of real-time readings, such as engine load. I'd guess that using the engine load reading, the additional load from current draw of the HHO unit might be measurable if the engine is at or near idle.

** I would not be surprised if even recent fuel injection systems only resolve pulse width commands to 8 bits -- but I'm only guessing. When and if I have time, I'll look it up.

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 2:19 AM

Once you have proved that the scam is real (as I and many others know you will), why not call your "Scan Gauge", your "Scam Gauge"?

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#38
In reply to #19

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/31/2009 7:50 PM

This TEST should prove "ONLY" that the "John Henry"...

Works OR does not Work on a car..... {results permitting}

WE are provoked this challange...

To show that we are different than the scammers ,That have so busy peddling they're wears...

PLEASE keep in mind.... The "John Henry" is for 18 wheelers...AND not for Cars ....

BUT IT'S STILL A FAIR TEST... as long as the fuel can be accurately measered...

with the SCAM GUAGE.... { ha ha ha }

WE all need to figure out a way to actually measure the fuel used in a liquid form....

that way no one from ether side can argue the results... that is FAIR

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#21
In reply to #15

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 2:33 AM

Quote:

Certainly, I don't expect to be able to measure the expected loss in efficiency. The draw of a typical unit is only 100-150 watts, so if the system operates at a total loss, that small draw on my car's 100,000 watt engine will be difficult to measure.

Your Accord produces 100,000 watts of Power??? What is Your Secret?

OK, I just looked it up using My ESB unit converter, 100,000 "Watt hours" is equivalent to 134 "Horsepower hours"... Impressive if True, but You have to remember, Your Car does not always produce "Peak" Horsepower, and Never at normal cruising speeds.

The Alternator however can be measured for how much load it has on the Engine, I'm sure You can find specs on Your exact Alternator in a little online digging. When You know the RPM ranges Your Engine runs at during normal driving (scan tool data) You can calculate the load @ the Alternator using a current meter, the Alt.'s specs, & ratio between Crank/Alt. pulleys.

Just don't cross the Red wire, with the Black one.

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#39
In reply to #15

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/31/2009 8:34 PM

I believe HHO people use tin foil helmets, so you know...

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#42
In reply to #15

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/01/2009 3:04 PM

I should mention that Ben, who has volunteered to have his unit tested, does not claim 25%, of 50%, etc. His claim is 20%.

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#14

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/29/2009 11:44 PM

You have taken the bull by the horns. We will all be indebted to you for your hard work.

When Hot Rod has their Power Tours and other gatherings, they usually have someone with a portable dyno there. Do you think they would make one available to you for a run?

Good luck in this endeavor.

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#16

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 1:02 AM

Thanks Ken,

I await the results with interest. As a side note: if the results are not measurable you might add H2 to the system to find when or if results do happen. Just an idea.

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#22

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 5:22 AM

Using a Scan Gauge tool like DashDyno SPD by Auterra is pretty handy when testing it in actual city/hiway conditions... of course - I agree with you, a dyno is more reliable. Expensive but reliable.

With a scan tool - at least you can do longer tests conveniently.

I have experienced 2 dyno tests with cars using these hho devices - the first dyno test gave positive results - the 2nd gave results but not so impressive... however, the results of the latter proved something. That too much ampere draw on your alternator will rob away hp and torque - thats because I made tests runs with varying electrolyte strength in order to see any difference with enhanced mode or without.

Unless the source of power to power up the electrolyzer is not from the alternator some power will be compromised... you need to keep it below 14A... I am not an expert with OBD2 or OBD1 electrical systems... but I am led to believe that the alternator is regulated to produce just enough amps to the battery proportional to the total factory specified load devices in the car. So adding another load device will put the balance off the original equation causing drained batteries of mechanical power loss. I have tried tapping into the unregulated line from the alternator to fix this problem with 2 vehicles and so far - they both showed no problems.

I am not highlighting what I have discovered in these tests but I am just throwing some inputs into the bucket for reference.

I know doing the tests this will take much of your time... but it will definitely be worth it.

At least an objective and more scientific/ engineering test will be done by somebody credible in the community (not a biased one) - not that some of the tests are not valid.

If it is video documented - the presence of some un-interested parties will also be good.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 6:49 AM

A car alternator is controlled to keep a specific VOLTAGE on the car's electrical system, usually around 14.4 volts......this is high enough that a reasonable charging current can flow into the battery, without excessively overcharging it.

Car batteries are designed to accept that and also to supply heavy "cranking" amps when required for motor starting....

In the alternator rotor there is a(re) coil(s), these coil(s) are "excited" from the battery initially, via a controller and slip rings, the larger the current that flows, the larger the output of the alternator.....once the car engine is running, the controller "watches over the system" voltage and instantly adjusts the exciter current to offset any changes away from that voltage of around 14.4 volts.

Years ago the voltage controller was a separate unit to the Alternator, nowadays it is generally part of the Alternator.....

(Some manufacturers use a slightly higher or lower system voltage by the way...)

It really does not matter how much current is needed for peripherals (within the design limits of the alternator of course!), lights and recharging of the battery, each takes the current it needs and the alternator supplies the current by maintaining the voltage as stably as possible......

I hope this explanation is enough for you.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 10:37 AM

Quote:

In the alternator rotor there is a(re) coil(s), these coil(s) are "excited" from the battery initially, via a controller and slip rings, the larger the current that flows, the larger the output of the alternator.....once the car engine is running, the controller "watches over the system" voltage and instantly adjusts the exciter current to offset any changes away from that voltage of around 14.4 volts.

It really does not matter how much current is needed for peripherals (within the design limits of the alternator of course!), lights and recharging of the battery, each takes the current it needs and the alternator supplies the current by maintaining the voltage as stably as possible......

If You have an 80AMP alternator, and the field is fully excited, "peripherals drawing 75-80 AMPS", the physical Load on the Engine's Crank pulley is greater than if Your "peripherals are only drawing 15 Amps."

If You surpass the 80AMP rating, things start to go funny, like lights on Your radio dial dimming, strange messages beaming into Your Bluetooth... And You Hear Scotty's voice in the back of Your Head saying "I'm Given' Her All Shes Got Cap'n", and then You Freak-out, and crash into a Starbucks parking lot.

Not a Pretty Sight...

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 10:43 AM

Must say I've never seen salad burn.

milo

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 10:52 AM

You have to use the right Olive Oil...

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#29
In reply to #24

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/30/2009 12:07 PM

Not quite true.....if the voltage in the system (the voltage coming from the alternator that is, which will start to droop if you exceed the maximum output that the alternator can give), drops below the voltage of the battery, the battery starts to supply current in parallel to the alternator, to the loads in the car....as the battery can supply hundreds of amps for starting for example, it can actually supply say 20 amps for quite some time - depending upon the size and state of charge of the battery.....

It should never happen for over long in the normal run of things.....

Of course if this does happen over too long a period, then eventually the battery will be drained......

Some cars have only a 36 amp alternator and in winter with seat heating, rear screen heating, main lighting on etc etc. it is quite easy to exceed the output of such an alternator and the battery simply does not get a chance to be recharged......

A simple car battery voltage monitor (can be really cheap with a few colored LEDs showing roughly the "state of charge"), can be a good idea to easily show if the battery can be trusted to start the car the next time.....some also have a "headlights on" monitor to stop them being forgotten!!!

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#36
In reply to #29

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/31/2009 12:31 AM

You acknowledge that if the Alt.s maximum current is exceeded that the Car's accessories will run on Battery Power, leading to troubles after a long drive.

But You don't acknowledge that an Alternator's power demand at the belt varies?

Which was the main point of My Post.

Next time You see a Cop Car parked at an event with lights, and such operating (Not even counting the Air Conditioning Unit). Say the Car is parked at a Night-Time event where the Officer is standing outside "Near" His Car. The Engine will be running a bit fast, He may even have the Hood popped open slightly to aid in air circulation.

The Reason is the Draw on the Alternator, which is so High because of maintaining power to the lights, computer interface, High Power Radio, and any other accessories. The idle has to be bumped up by solenoid so the Engine can turn the High Output Alternator efficiently.

Another example would be People with High Output Stereo setups, who often run a "Cop" style Alternator, as well as an extra Battery.

Obviously an Alternator is Way better than a Generator as far as power requirements @ the belt, but the stronger the draw on either varies the load @ the belt.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: The HHO Test Plan

03/31/2009 10:54 AM

You wrote:-

But You don't acknowledge that an Alternator's power demand at the belt varies?

It is not clear what you were trying to say, please elaborate.

But if you mean that the load on the motor varies with the current drawn, I would say that this is self explanatory and understood by all most of the people posting on CR4, and need not be stated usually.

By the way, the reason that Police Cruisers have the hood propped open to assist in cooling is simply because the car is not moving, so that the air cooling caused by the motion is missing. Also, they have often upped the tick over speed somewhat.

And, as you pointed out, both the AC and the Alternator need to be turned above tick over to supply the needed power and pumping of the cooling gas for the AC....

In most cars, the alternator may not deliver enough power to cover all the needs when waiting at a light for example.......the battery then takes over that part of the load that the alternator cannot supply at that time......

You appeared in your original post to not understand this action particularly well when you posted the following wrong ideas:-

If You surpass the 80AMP rating, things start to go funny, like lights on Your radio dial dimming, strange messages beaming into Your Bluetooth... And You Hear Scotty's voice in the back of Your Head saying "I'm Given' Her All Shes Got Cap'n", and then You Freak-out, and crash into a Starbucks parking lot.

This will only happen if the overload is either so HUGE (something is REALLY wrong with the car!!) or over so a long time wise, that the battery voltage drops to 10 volts or less (battery well and truly empty).....but you neglected to mention that important small point!!!

Furthermore, car batteries cannot handle deep discharging well. Deep discharge is funnily enough for most car batteries, when the voltage drops below 12.6 volts. But does depend upon the manufacturer as well......(not like a Leisure battery for example which handle deep discharge far better...!)

They are quickly damaged, losing dramatic amounts of capacity each time......better quality usually handles it better, but do not rely on that!!!

12.6 volts is the point at which damage starts in a small way. The lower the voltage, the more damage occurs....But do see the manufacturers notes for the final word on the subject, my comments are general, not specific....

Have a good day.

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