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The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 2:55 AM

Ben 78, who is with John Henry Hydrogen has offered an HHO unit to test. Their site is straightforward, and they do not claim that their unit will work only if you wave magnets around, pour weasel urine into the tank, or use an "efie," a device which alters (illegally, of course) the O2 sensor(s) readings.

My tentative plan is to install the unit on my 2004 Honda Accord, which has a manual transmission, helping to eliminate variability in torque converter lockup vs non lockup, etc. The Accord will be equipped with a Scan Gauge 2 fuel economy computer, the operation of which is proprietary -- but it is reasonable to assume that is uses readings from either (or both) the mass airflow sensor or pulse width on the injectors to calculate injected fuel amounts continuously. It uses the vehicle speed sensor to read vehicle speed, and then does the calculation to compute instantaneous fuel consumption (as well as trip, day, etc.).

People who have used the Scan Gauge 2 have reported very high accuracy, as would be expected, because it is using the same data that the ecu uses to precisely inject the correct amount of fuel.

With a Scan Gauge 2, and without the complicating factor of any devices which tamper with the emission system (and which could potentially "trick" the Scan Gauge 2 in the same way that the ECU can be "tricked,") even on-road tests of a device like an HHO unit (which can easily be turned on and off) can be accomplished with pretty good repeatability. However, there is no substitute for a dyno, which allows consistency of load and speed that is very hard to achieve safely (if at all) on the road, so we will use a dyno at least to calibrate and gain confidence in the Scan Gauge 2.

We'd measure HHO output flow rate periodically throughout testing to keep the flow rate constant. If it appears that there is significant gain or loss from the HHO unit, then we will vary flow rates to see if the relationship between flow rate and gain or loss changes. We will also test the claims by Onecraftydude that the typical flow rates (1-2 lpm) are actually too high (even though the injected mass is incredibly small) and cause detonation -- an effect not reported by other HHO promoters, nor by the numerous university researchers who have worked with hydrogen injection.

We will also monitor O2 sensor readings with the unit switched on and switched off.

We will do a series of A/B A/B A/B tests one immediately after the other to keep temperature, humidity, tire pressure, engine condition, etc. all constant. This will eliminate many sources of variability and sources for criticism of of invalid tests. We will allow enough time between on/off cycles to allow performance to stabilize. If we find a load at which the unit is particularly effective, we will alter flow to see if performance can be optimized, recording changes and results.

The tests will be designed so that any garage inventor can replicate them at very low cost. This will help small promoters of the units to avoid feeling that they must make outlandish performance claims before having any real data.

Our working hypothesis will be that performance differences attributable to the unit may be very hard to measure, because the energy value of the injected hydrogen is such a small portion of the total fuel consumption (on the order of 1/1000 of the total). Thus, we will be careful to see if effects can be observed at very low loads, such as at idle, as well as at more normal road loads.

If this preliminary testing indicates significant efficiency improvements, then we will attempt to set up testing with a governmental agency using standard procedures and equipment. Also, if this preliminary testing indicates a significant performance change, we will measure the criteria emissions (CO, HC, NOx) to see how they are effected.

If you have suggestions, or questions you would like to have answered via this preliminary testing, please comment. I'd like this test to be sufficient for an engineer, scientist, or technically engaged person (and ideally the average person) to be able to say either: "Yes, it looks very likely that these devices work as advertised", or "No, it seems unlikely that these devices work as advertised."

Perhaps if the HHO unit shows significant performance changes, then we can come up with a plan for testing additions, such as Efie, magnets, etc.

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#73
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 8:09 PM

just as a point of interest reading your response to Andy .... these units haven't been dissected to find out precise details in milli whatever's as to how and why it works , we created this in humble circumstances without the luxury of expensive test equipment , we were however able to measure the amount of fuel used to a close enough degree that it was unquestionable increase in h.p and mileage at least to the point where we were satisfied that it worked on a gas engine till we cold move on to diesels .. That gas engine we tested it on was a 1994 dodge caravan 3.0 litre 3 speed auto which when new would have got 21 1/2 to 22 m.p.g. at the time testing started it had 135,000 miles on it , it was smoking oil and I thought if it was going to kill a motor it would happen quickly on this one ... That same vehicle now has almost a 1/4 million miles on it , still smokes a little and still gives us a flat 25 m.p.g. now I realize thats not 20% but give her a break without the fuel cell it would only give 18 maybe 19 m.p.g. with that kinda wear on it ... Hurt a gasoline motor , I don't believe it will , fires before t.d.c. nothing ignites that fast , combining the 2 fuel together , all I can say is .. it seems to work fine , but I agree diesel is much better , I just can't afford to buy one .... Thanks for your comments guys , its appreciated , just wish we could tell or explain in more detail

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 9:58 PM

Where are all you 78 guy's coming from?

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#76
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 11:09 PM

Hello Garth ; all us 78 guys ( both of us ) are me and my son Ben , we're out of Texas , I'm 58 , he's born in 78 .. thus his Ben 78 , he registered me on this site and Reg. me as henry 78 so this isn't my age although most days it feels like it , Ben introduced as a conversation topic our site johnhenryhydrogen.com , in hopes that somehow it may be tested in a scientific manner ... science requires physical evidence of proof , and this is the purpose of this thread , to gather some reputable scientific minds and engineers for an un bias opinion , we're currently at the point of determining how to physically measure fuel used , ideas entertained !!! nice having you on board . We're not looking for any glory here in-fact we want to avoid publicity , but with so many people saying its not possible and can''t be done we couldn't resist . hope this brings you up to speed -henry

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#84
In reply to #76

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:02 AM

Thanks for the thumbnail bio Henry,

Oh I've been here, Hydrogen has been a topic of discussion for nearly as long as my tenure

I hope we can help answer any of the relevant questions...

I do suppose a diesel would use exaust temp for emission control, semi's have traditionaly had at least a analog gauge to keep from cracking a exaust manifold or valve at shut down...

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#92
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 6:20 AM

GA from me for a good all round "common sense" answer.

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#75
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 10:42 PM

Hi Henry,

I agree with what you said, in fact, my first emission test on a VW 69 bug revealed I was running 10:1 AFR - this is rich!... but my CO emission is only 0.19% - The test center told me this is not normal. I guess Hydroxy induction is responsible for it. My HC is a bit higher relatively speaking, but it is still low for an old car. With regards to newer car, OBD 1 or OBD 2 - the small inducement of hydroxy gas IMHO will not affect MAP or MAF nor IAT sensors, probably - only the LAMBDA sensor and the O2 sensor. Lambda being immediately the first sensor to read the exhaust gases. The slight increase of temp. will of course indicate lean mixture, but this signal will be compared by the ECU to the other number of sensors in order for the computer to decide what to do every millisecond. All we have are theoretical conlussions. But in my experience with an OBD1 and OBD2 car - without using EFIE's... these cars improved in performance... cold starting problems vanished. With regards to mileage, they felt (PROBABLY PLACEBO EFFECT or maybe not) the cars saved.

There is only one time that an OBD1 car had decrease in mileage... it was when I did not regulate the relief valve for air - significantly increasing the MAP figures... as soon as the ECU detects a larger volume of air pressure in the intake manifold - it will trigger the signal to the ECU that it needs to compensate the volume with the corresponding amount of fuel in order to maintain stoichiometric 14.7:1 (Which is the prime directive of every Cars program).

In short, each vehicle is unique and their system need to be considered in every hydroxy on demand installation. The are different types of electrolyzers and there are different ways or system to induce it.

Filtering the gas can also affect the quality of explosion... with a few experimentations you will know. You will also find that the type of water in the bubbler and how dry the gas that enters into the airstream do have some effect. To add, the size of the fittings also have an effect with the induction. Using a regulator seems to solve this problem for engines with higher negative pressure. But for unthrottled engines like diesels - attaching a throttle body between the intake duct before the the hydroxy inlet will solve the problem.

Or perhaps you all know this already. ... anyway, just pitching in.

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#52
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 3:08 AM

Don't tell them that its called the "Scam (finder) Gauge"......none of us are implying that the gauge itself is a scam, in fact, the complete opposite!!!

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#139
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 7:06 PM

UM, You coined the term "Scam Gauge" in Comment #19...

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#149
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/07/2009 1:08 AM

Quote:

"It might also be possible to run the engine on three cylinders, with one fuel injector removed, and collect fuel in a flask, to be measured. We'd track the "load" parameter (which gives a percentage of max pulse width), and correlate that with actual fuel amounts. (This would drive the O2 sensor absolutely crazy... but with a sock stuffed in one intake runner... I could end up with a completely inoperable car.)"

I was just rereading all of the Posts to see what I've missed, and stumbled when I saw This paragraph. As the Person everyone is relying on for unbiased Data, Please Ken, Tell Me this Paragraph was an April Fools bit.

If it was a "Funny", My input would be; "It depends on the Size of the Sock, and whether it is Dirty".

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#63

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/02/2009 2:19 PM

OOoooOOOoo... I can hardly wait for the results. So exiting. Go Ken!

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#98

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 7:15 AM

I have decided to leave this blog completely as the percentage of "idiots/scammers/louts" to common sense people has exceeded all expectations......common sense has gone almost completely, except for a few sane dedicated CR4 members.(easily picked out!)

With these types of subjects, it really brings the Loonies out of the woodwork....

I am sure that most everyone concerned here knows my opinion of where they fit it in the great scheme of things.

I personally also have far better things to do with my time, common sense, knowledge and experience....!!! Sleeping is one of them!!

If the scammers/Loonies simply understood how to present valid data in a proper manner it would help.

If they learned how to present a finding/fact and argue for it in a sane technical manner, that would be a help.

If they ever stood back and looked at what they are presenting in a more logical manner, that is, if what is being discussed here REALLY WORKED (which it does not by the way!), none of the "Inventors" herewould release a single glimpse of how or why it worked as they would be selling patents to large vehicle manufacturers for BILLIONS OF $$$$$$$......but it does not work and even they have realized fully that patents for rubbish ideas cost more than the idea is fundamentally worth.....

The only real reason they are here at all is to hopefully get gullible new customers.... (and to annoy the few sane Engineers around )

THERE IS NO OTHER REASON......

BYEEEEEEE............

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#101
In reply to #98

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 11:38 AM

Hey Andy,

Dont leave this thread yet - I like your opinions too. I thought we are here to be objective and so forth... The Test hasnt been done yet and - a protocol hasnt been made yet... therefore, everybody's inputs are necessary to find the truth once and for all. - whether you are coming from the pros or the cons.

As far as I see it, this is good. This thread is not the battlefield. And nobody is a villain.

There's a much more bigger problem our world is facing and it is everyones job to do something about it.

If Ken can pull this thing off soon - he is definitely a hero. The data he will get from doing this test will be a good basis that the whole world can utilize.

To claim that hydroxy works or not is not the issue here anymore... it's being able to know more about the nature of this gas and how are we really able to utilize it to benefit mankind.

We are all in the same boat - whether you're sitting in the starboard or portside - if it sinks - we all go with it... whether you like it or not.

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#103
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:44 PM

We are all in the same boat - whether you're sitting in the starboard or portside - if it sinks - we all go with it... whether you like it or not.

I concur.

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#102
In reply to #98

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:36 PM

Andy I hope you go back on this site just one more time to read this , we need an objective opinion pro and against , I know your against and so was I until 20 yrs ago when I was playing with solar panels , it was winter when i was doing this and clouds prevailed a lot of the time so my batteries were constantly running down with no way of charging ... So I had a brain attack and decides to go but a new Honda 5 h.p motor , then got an alternator ( 90 amp capacity ) and with a piece of 3/4 ply for a base , a couple of pulleys, and a belt later i was ready to fire it up , running a 14 gauge wire to it from a battery to excite the field as it would be in a car , I started the motor , it idled just fine but when I increased the r.p.m. to I didn't know what , the alternator kicked on and stalled that 5 h.p. Honda motor dead in its tracks , I did this 4-5 times and ended up returning the motor and getting an 8 h.p. which could handle the load without stalling the motor .... Following me here ? getting any ideas ? From this little experiment and reflecting on that I realized that when that alternator kicks on which is at about an idle theres a load on that motor even if theres no place for the charge to go to , the thing of it is your car , truck whatever is already paying the price in fuel being used without a hydrogen generator on it , granted as the load increases so does the fuel required to generate it but ..... so there is a small portion of energy available to work with which throws off energy verses power used theory's which a lot of people don't realize ... Its just like the 110 volt outlet on your wall , your not using any power till you plug something in but the power generating station is still using energy to have that power there available for you when you want it and there again as the power consumption increases so does the energy required to produce it ... I know your upset , but please stay with us here ... I know I'm an idiot but that doesen't mean and idiot isen't capable of thought processes ..

P.s. we are trying to figure out a way to gather valid data thats is acceptable to you that would be acceptable source of reliable information , thats why were doing this , don't be upset , but rather contribute your ideas as to how to prove this wrong

Out of the mouth of babes !!! sometimes comes words of wisdom , food for thought Andy

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#104
In reply to #102

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 2:45 PM

Very Good Post...

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#107
In reply to #102

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 5:54 PM

Regarding your 5 hp motor story. Why do you think the alternator was kicking on and loading the motor, if the power generated by an alternator is mostly wasted energy.

A better example you need to consider is this. When I was in high school I owned a fiat spider. It had a very small aluminum engine. When cruising at 75 mph, if you turned the lights on you could feel the car start slowing. If you turned on too many electronic components at night the engine would run hotter than usual and you would find it hard getting up to 75 mph.

It seems like, you believe it would be more efficient to have a alternator at full power charging full time. However, I would also suggest you consider the added heat and stress generated. Plus what happens when you turn on all the electronic components in the car while driving during a very hot night in the desert?

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#108
In reply to #102

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 7:16 PM

If the load from the alternator was connected to the batteries to excite the field, don't you think that the alternator was trying to charge that battery when the rpm reached the cut in point?

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#110
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 10:48 PM

Hey Bob ; I have no idea , nor can I remember exactly what was hooked up or details , it was a story or experience I remembered , but ... bottom line ... when the engine is runnng and no power is being drawn , and r,p.m. is at a rate that is fast enough for the alternator to be able to work , oh and the batteries are fully charged .. question ... would you say that ; the alternator is running freely with no horsepower being used ? not to likely , or there is a load on the engine from the alternator to some degree? I'm saying that I would put my money on the second being correct ..like I believe it was Andy some posts ago said there is always a full current of 14.4 volts coming from the alternator ready to work in some area of the vehicle

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#114
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/04/2009 12:07 PM

Andy said 14.4 Volts. That's NOT current!. If the battery is fully charged (to 14.4 Volts), there are no lights or accessories on, and there are no other loads on the alternator, then the current should be essentially zero (Amperes), and the alternator should spin freely and place virtually no load on the engine. Obviously there is always bearing, belt, and pulley friction, so its not zero load.

Otherwise there is something wrong with the alternator or the way it is connected.

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#109
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/03/2009 8:45 PM

GOOD SIR ANDY...

You made some very interesting points... I value your opinion... common sense, knowledge and experience....!!! I just don't like when some one calls me the "S" word....

but any way... the interesting points you mentioned...

You siad.. "If the Loonies simply understood how to present valid data in a proper manner it would help" "If they learned how to present a finding/fact and argue for it in a sane technical manner, that would be a help." If I could present valid data in a proper manner it would help. sorry about that.. please take my posts as an opinion from personal expericne... KEN will have to present valid data for me on this matter

You said.. " if what is being discussed here REALLY WORKED (which it does not by the way!), none of the "Inventors" herewould release a single glimpse of how or why it worked as they would be selling patents to large vehicle manufacturers for BILLIONS OF $$$$$$$......" THE big three car companies have got millions of $$$$ for the research of hydrogen technology for FREE from the government last year ... they all so have some of the best minds in the country working on it... but they have nothing to show for it... SO.. we will just bail them out agian... AND more importantly do you think they would believe us .. and they would not entertain the idea of testing it any way... MAYBE... we should convince CR4 first... at least you guys will test it.. this is a good proving ground..... this ground is hard but it will make a good foundation

you said.."The only real reason they are here at all is to hopefully get gullible new customers.... (and to annoy the few sane Engineers around )" "THERE IS NO OTHER REASON...... " I have not tried to sell you guys any thing...BUT I will admit to being anoying.. the the reason why I am here is for proper testing... It will take allot of brain power to come to a true concsion.... HANG IN THERE ANDY... your time, common sense, knowledge and experience is needed .. but name calling is not...

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#132
In reply to #109

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 12:22 PM

I think Andy was more annoyed with Me, than You Ben...

I thought Your story of needing a 8HP Engine to spin an Alternator, rather than a 5HP also proved one of My points regarding load required to run an Alternator.

The Guy with the Fiat, may have had a Generator (He didn't mention the Year of His Fiat Spider), which is an Okay way to make power, but the load @ the belt is greater than an Alternator, and the output power is not as well regulated.

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#138
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/06/2009 7:03 PM

OOPS I confused Ben_78, with Henry_78...

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#124

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/05/2009 1:41 AM

I will try to be patient and Wait for proper testing ...

I would trust dyno readings... its should be enough to prove or disprove

I hope we can some how measure the fuel... it would be un-debatable to have physical proof.... after all this is physics...

thanks every one for your input on this matter

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#166

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 2:22 AM

the world is a better place now that they caught Dennis lee... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29899191/

I have already done dyno tests MY SELF.... and I am "in contact" with the guy who did this date line special.... I will test with you CR4 GUYS OR CRIEG... WHO EVER IS READY FRIST....

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#168
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 3:14 AM

Hi Ben

Just a quick question about your device.

Does it change the rate at which hydrogen is supplied to the intake as the engine speed changes (as more or less demand is placed on the engine)?

If so, then how are you accomplishing this?

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#176

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/08/2009 8:30 PM

ok... IF ANY ONE WANTS TO DISSCUSS "HOW" WE CAN ACCUATLY TEST THIS

"JOHN HENRY" VISIT THIS THREAD...

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/36141/discussions-on-HOW-we-can-test-the-JOHN-HENRY

THIS THREAD IS GONE TOO FAR OFF TOPIC FOR ME...

I LOOK FORWARD TOO YOUR IMPUT OVER THERE

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#179
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 1:27 AM

I know it is terribly, Off-Topic but have You by any chance run across a Bumper-Sticker that reads;

"Driver Emits Flammable Gases!" ???

I was running an errand today, and thought of it...

Yes, this was Me, just before I added a second strap.

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#191

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 7:17 PM

How we have degraded.

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#197
In reply to #191

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 12:28 AM

I blame Grunge Rock...

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#193

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 10:20 PM

It appears that you Ken or your co-Hort's are not able to figure out even the simplest method of measuring fuel in a liquid state .. scan gages have been considered , but not plausible until you have a definite figure to calibrate it to and with this figure determined , a scan Gage is no longer required , a flow meter has been suggested by one fellow which is a good idea although ken mentioned that there expensive but then again he should know someone who has such a devise but if he doesn't were back to square one , the conversation has gone from measuring fuel , to arguing about sucking and vacuum which has nothing to do with anything, to old cars they owned , and pipelines to water the desert ... this is intellect at work !. It doesn't appear as though anyone is willing to contribute , all wanting to show off how much they know , but evidence points to something other than anyone with credibility , we've been branded as scammers , which to me is someone who will lie and deceive to get something from you which is what this site seems to be all about , we were told that ken was willing to test this , that seems to be a lie or if it wasn't than no-one here is able to measure liquid fuel , one or the other either stupid or liars , and here we are waiting , approaching you people in all honesty and being deceived to think it would be tested in some credible facility but in reality were nothing more than entertainment to you people .. through out the ages there have always been those who will take a step forward and break new ground , explore , these are the true scientists ,open minded ,seeking the truth willing to be outcasts from their piers if necessary to find the truth ... Then there is those who are cowering in the side lines , worried what others will think if they step out into and unknown frontier , and is a trait it seems of this type to deter, discourage , and even denounce if necessary the truth uncovered in order to not loose the respect of their fellow braniacs , these types never contribute anything but knowledge that doesn't even apply to the subject that's being addressed , they seem to love the sound of their own voice ..

we asked for a simple test for the benefit of no-one but yourselves , because certainly it would do us no good since we don't sell for gasoline engines anyways , doesn't anyone realize how simple it is to measure fuel , all one has to do is get 4-5 in-line clear fuel filters for a couple of bucks each , cut into the supply line , attach these filters with some neoprene hose and clamps , start car , run till it stops , add 1 gallon of fuel and run till it stalls - you now no how much fuel it takes and how many miles it went on the dyno , controlled conditions , controlled load .. with that done attach hydrogen cell , add a gallon of fuel , start car , and run till it stalls ,.. question did it run longer on the first test or the second ... there's your answer ..If filters began to dirty up during runs from sediment in the tank , take one off there's still 3-4 filters there to do the job ..Or how about this , put a plug in the bottom of the tank , drain down to level of the plug , reinsert plug , pour in a gallon of fuel , start car and let run for 15-30 minutes whatever , stop car , take out plug and measure fuel thats left , then attach hydrogen cell and repeat test after that its simple undeniable math ...This isn't rocket science here ..... But everyone here knows unless these results were in favor of the hydrogen cell NOT working , the results would be questioned and even denied . Cause lets face it boys it would make ken and all but a few here who think it may be possible to look foolish ...so these results in our favor would never ever be acknowledged .... On top of that just to make it worse yet , me and Ben aren't the first entertainment you've had , other people have asked the same thing of your group and you've done nothing but discourage ... scientists , engineers , I don't think so , blowhards maybe, scammers definitely , liars absolutely...One thing in life I've always seen repeat itself over and over .. when someone accuses you of something most of the time its what they do them selves , this is a true statement fellows and worthy to be remembered . This is just entertainment to you guys lets face it , we haven't heard a word concerning testing since we started .. Your not even interested in the truth, you would rather entertain a lie than risk your so called credibility ... Scientists , engineers ,You should be ashamed of yourselves .. call yourself what you want , it doesn't mean that's what you are , just cause its Joe's barber shoppe , doesn't mean Joe owns it .. Titles are nothing without the mindset to take on the responsibility and embrace the opportunity ! Although this is the topic , I'll mark this as being off topic because it really is , ... but shouldn't be

Henry J. Wale

John Henry Hydrogen Fuel Cell

www.johnhenryhydrogen.com

1-931-409-1984

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#194
In reply to #193

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/09/2009 11:03 PM

Oh bullshit!

You are making the claims, so its up to you to provide the proof...

I asked for data & you PMed me with an offer of dyno tests that I can't share?

On this and the 13 hho lies thread you make claims & tell guys like Gwen they don't understand.

Please enlighten us with facts

have you contacted Ken? or : http://cr4.globalspec.com/member?u=22052 natural extraction? who both led us all to believe that they have access to equipment & are interested in testing HHO technology. Have they been misleading us?

If you have been on this site for a while you will certainly see a fair number of off topic discussions or comments... These threads can have a life of their own.

Most every county here in california [weights & measures] will certify the volume of a tank for about $70. Any number of labratory supply houses will sell you graduated cylinders of various sizes.

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#209
In reply to #194

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 1:38 PM

I did ask a "chosen few" to look at the dyno results from last year,,, just to get an opinion.... on what "they" think

We need CR4 to help to make a proper test that will leave no stone un-turned...

any testing by "US" could be dis-credited by the fact that it was not done a certain way or the fact that "WE" done the tests and could have some how influence the results

I understand some times threads go off topic... IT'S fine by me and have enjoyed them also... I will post a way that I think would be a good and reliable way to measure fuel on this thread http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/36141#newcomments

I will look forward to your thoughts... I still hope that we can make a fair test

thanks

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#198
In reply to #193

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 1:01 AM

Calm down Henry, Ken's last post was 4/2 perhaps He is busy setting things up, or studying Your schematics, or arranging Dyno time, coordinating with a local Cameraman like He mentioned. Or Heaven forbid being a Father of 2, He may have a Day Job...

Yes everyone else is free to nit-pick about semantics, and terminology, think of it like siblings arguing it really is nothing more serious than that.

No one is at each others throats, We are just discussing other things while the substitute teacher is in the Bathroom (bad analogy?), when Ken starts publishing results for, or against, We will post questions like; "What was that bump @ 2700RPM?", and so on.

You may have to sift through hundreds of replies to find a Pearl of Wisdom, but You won't be the only one to find that Pearl.

Watch the Baby, & count to 10.

Remember, History is filled with People who were Ridiculed for their ideas.

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#211
In reply to #198

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 1:45 PM

Historically speaking I have been ridiculed extensively on CR4. I would be happy to come to Sarasota and do a verified test by someone who is respected in CR4. I did a verified test with another CR4 member Wednesday, but his standing in CR4 is questionable because he admitted to working on his own HHO device. So, if you accept the invitation to witness my results firsthand, be aware that you will likely be ostracized as well.

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#220
In reply to #211

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 4:24 PM

I'm Smart, but I don't think anyone here (maybe one, or two) thinks that I am credible.

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#222
In reply to #220

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 10:46 PM

If you are not credible does that make you incredible?

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#223
In reply to #222

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 12:25 AM

Not without the Cape...

My last experiment with Flight didn't produce Good results, She is OK, and has learned to live with 7 Toes, and the Broken Arm healed nicely, but I am at Her Beckon Call everytime She needs something.

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#226
In reply to #223

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 2:27 AM

thats almost as good as "beaker" getting shocked

sorry about her toes

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#276
In reply to #226

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/17/2009 1:32 AM

I was kidding, I would never risk Her safety...

I could have replied to Your comment 6 days ago, but every time I saw Your words; "sorry about her toes" I would chuckle to myself, and wonder if You really thought I was serious.

Why do Kids always have more fun with the packaging than the Toy?

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#278
In reply to #276

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/17/2009 1:42 AM

I knew you were kidding... it was a good photo...

but not as good as the one with Mr. bean...

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#202

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 10:12 AM

I suppose this link is posted by Ken? If so, why the name change?

As far as testing, how are you going to determine the amount of gas used for the test? If you are using an inference meter like the scan gauge the test will be invalid unless backed up with actual fuel consumption. I have that device on my wife's car and it tells me what my mileage is at that time as well as average over the tank full. When I test the actual mileage there is almost always a significant difference from the readings. Tire size, faulty fuel gauge readings etc will cause false readings.

I am happy to see that someone has offered to send you a device for free to test, I hope they also had you sign an NDA prior to sending it.

Some conditions are present when testing these devices that the community should be aware of:

1. When doing the first test always start with no HHO. The baseline test should be performed on a thoroughly warmed engine without any HHO used in it that day. This baseline will likely change throughout testing because of the effects of HHO on the engine.

2. The cell temperature has a lot to do with the quality of the gas produced and the amount of hydrogen in the gas. Cell temperature should be noted with testing data. If the cell uses a reservoir for circulation the fluid should be used for temperature testing.

3. Moisture in the supply line to the engine air intake is indicative of reduced efficiency which will cause degradation of hydrogen output. If moisture is present in line it should be noted.

Summing up: How is your test any different from the testing I have done and reported and told was unacceptable by you and others? I can see the dyno testing being useful if you are monitoring fuel consumption with a container. Other than that you are doing nothing different than what I have done and yet you claim my results are invalid. Good luck with the testing and I hope you don't get attacked when the results are positive like I did by people like yourself.

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#204
In reply to #202

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 11:30 AM

OCD,

Did I miss something or did you actually post data somewhere?

All I've seen are conclusions & impressions.

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#206
In reply to #204

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 12:02 PM

Yes I believe you did miss something. I posted my cell efficiency test data along with the mileage gains I am seeing on my own vehicle which was patently dismissed by yourself and others as invalid due to my test procedures. Now Ken says he will do the same tests the same way and somehow his data will be acceptable?

Here is test data from yesterday:

Driving on I75 north into a 5-15 mph headwind with the temperature outside @ between 75 and 80 deg. F on a warmed engine.

115 miles from fillup to fillup at top of fill tube, gas consumed 3.9 galons. 115 divided by 3.9 =29.487 MPG.

Baseline was done prior to testing HHO on the same highway in the same direction running 30 miles using 1.845 gallons during test. 30 divided by 1.845 = 16.260 MPG.

These are the actual test results from yesterday using No HHO for baseline first and then turning on HHO for second test with no other alterations to the computer or van. I stress these results are from HHO ALONE.

These are by far my best results with this van. I cannot explain why the results were so much better than previous results using the same setup and I intend to identify the source of the increased fuel economy over my standard 30% increase I have gotten for nearly one year up to this point.

I hope this clears up the no data excuse even though I am sure you will all say this is not good data for whatever reason.

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#208
In reply to #206

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 1:04 PM

The above is not data, in any scientific definition of the word. It's anecdotal evidence, at best.

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#210
In reply to #208

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 1:40 PM

I showed the numbers from my unconventional test to prove a point. I think you guys are over-complicating the issue. If you test mileage with a stock configuration then change one variable (HHO device) and test again you have data. You say it is anecdotal at best without telling me how to make it scientific. I guess I will have to wait for Ken to do it right so I know how it's done by "PROFESSIONALS". Constructive criticism leads to better testing. Criticism for the sake of criticizing only leads to preservation of the norm.

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#214
In reply to #210

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 2:38 PM

I oversee the operation of a standards and calibration lab, for the aero-space industry. Without going into to much boring detail, any test that we perform must be backed up with proper procedure, and all equipment must be calibrated and traceable. If, during an audit, anything is out of compliance, my test data is deemed useless.

So, for me anyway, any test data produced must be accompanied with a proven, reproducible procedure, conducted with traceable calibrated test equipment.

I have no interest in testing your device myself, I'll leave that up to others. But if you want me to believe your data, the above criteria must be met.

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#219
In reply to #214

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 4:19 PM

John Q. Public, taking a Vehicle from Sarasota, Florida, to New York City starts with a Full Tank of Gas, and a zeroed out trip odometer. He records the gallons pumped at each Fuel stop as well as the current miles.

Upon completing His trip He calculates Fuel economy based on gallons used, and miles covered in each leg. If He made note of Mountainous regions, He may know why economy fell off going through parts of Georgia, and North Carolina... But say He filled up the Tank 12 times, He has 12 possibly different equations for MPG.

He doesn't care about Ambient Temperature, Humidity, Barometric pressure, or what the head/tail winds were, He just cares about the impact made on His wallet.

John Q. Public wants to spend less $ when taking a long trip, if His usual driving is only 25 miles per day however, He may go for the Gas-Guzzling Muscle car.

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#227
In reply to #214

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 7:51 AM

So that means that your tests have to be set up by others so you have a format to follow to keep from making mistakes. Your right, your not qualified to do testing on HHO devices because you cannot come up with the criteria for the test, you can only follow instructions. That is fine for a calibration tech working with standards. We have no standards, we have no criteria, we have no procedure. That is why we are here.

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#240
In reply to #227

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 5:52 PM

Quote:

We have no standards, we have no criteria, we have no procedure.

UM, I have Standards, they're Low, but still there.

I just need some Hydrogen for My Vertical Surveyor.

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#241
In reply to #240

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 6:17 PM

Yes low standard include Vacuum and suck. But there is still no vacuum. If you wish to call partial pressure- vacuum go ahead but that is still fuzzy thinking ( not to be confused with Fuzzy Logic )

You can not work in a vacuum because they don't exist. Even in deep space it is estimated at about one molecule to each cubic meter at about 3 degrees above absolute 0.

If you could vacuum out a thick steel box you should be able to get every atom because it is only 14.7 psia to start. Last I knew even Intel could only get class 10,000. clean room conditions. I took Vacuum basics there and the first statement was Vacuum is a misnomer.

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#243
In reply to #241

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:22 PM

ok may be vacuum was the wrong word.... when my unit is hooked up to the breather of a motor.... the motor will "draw" the hho into its self... it may not be a vacuum but is has no problem pulling air

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#249
In reply to #241

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 8:42 PM

I'm rubber, you're glue...

Next time You are ejoying a Big Gulp, thank goodness that You have Atmospheric Pressure pushing the Soda up the straw, and into Your Belly.

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#251
In reply to #249

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 12:35 AM

I'm rubber, you're glue...

Well, U V cures some glues but does degrade rubber Both are immaterial to this thread.

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#259
In reply to #249

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 10:48 PM

I have no idea what the rubber and glue thing is about, but your second paragraph shows that you DO understand differential pressures, even if you're not ready to relinquish the concept of vacuum 'pulling'.

I'll use your term: ever try to 'suck' mercury up a long straw? Trying that will quickly show the inability of vacuum to pull.

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#260
In reply to #259

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/14/2009 12:32 AM

Hi dkwarner

He's just not going to let the 'suck' thing go. So I guess everyone will just have to adjust everything to accomodate the 'suck' factor:

So differential pressure will have to change so that:

Q =flow rate
A1 =Area 1
A2 ='Suck' Area 2
P1 =Pressure 1
P2 =Amount of 'Suck' 2
rho =density

Since it is believed that all 'sucks' (vacuums) are "negative pressures" then p2 will have to be negative (like 'suck'-1 , 'suck'-2 ...) so..... just throw away all of the above. (maybe the 'suck' area is negative?)

Thank God the Bernoulli's didn't 'suck'....

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#262
In reply to #260

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/14/2009 11:37 AM

negative pressure is like negative time, it doesn't exist.

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#265
In reply to #262

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/14/2009 12:45 PM

Agreed.

But the 'suck' advocates believe that a reduced pressure below standard atmospheric (which is often termed a 'partial vacuum') has 'negative pressure' and an attractive force. This just doesn't fit into any excepted calculations that I've ever seen since any partial vacuum still has a positive pressure.

Maybe all of the pressure gauges should be changed from psi & in. Hg to units of "Suck+" and "Suck-" (Suck and Unsuck).....?

Arrrrrggghhh!!

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#261
In reply to #259

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/14/2009 11:33 AM

I'm not sure attempting to suck Mercury up a straw (whether it can be done or not) is such a good idea. I mean, a while back some kid was kicked out of school for spilling a bit, and causing the whole school to evacuate. But, perhaps the heavy metal tastes good?

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#263
In reply to #261

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/14/2009 12:31 PM

Of course you are right on the safety issue, especially with today's common paranoia.

Back when I was teaching physics (somewhere between 15 and 45 years ago), we always had most of a 5 pound bottle of mercury on hand, and I did the experiment many times, using a long glass straw (tube) so you could watch the mercury. It is quite impressive to see how much effort is required to make the mercury rise even a few inches, and I can assure you that mercury is essentially tasteless, at least to my taste buds.

Perhaps that experimentation explains ...

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#242
In reply to #227

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:15 PM

I just want accurate 3rd party testing.... that way no one can argue the results

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#253
In reply to #227

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 7:00 AM

"you can only follow instructions"

Now you claim to know my job? You are in no position to tell me what I'm qualified to do or not do.

Actually, I write procedures for a living, it's part of my job, (not a part I particularly enjoy).

In any testing procedure, errors can creep in and completely destroy your results. There is a reason we are so meticulous in our procedures. When we screw up, airplanes can fall from the sky.

You asked that we be constructive, and I have been. Don't pick and choose the advice you get. Don't hear only what you want to hear.

If you want to base your claims on shoddy testing, go ahead. But don't come here to CR4, of all places, to seek validation. It's your project, not ours. Don't spit on people that don't tell you what you want to hear.

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#254
In reply to #253

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 1:32 PM

ok .... that is why I am here is to have proper testing in the manner that is recognized by CR4.... thanks for your advice....

but some one told me even it I proved to CR4 that it works they would never except it.... so I will seek testing else where.... thanks any way

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#255
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 4:04 PM

If the testing procedure is well written and the data is well documented, i see no reason why the people here on CR4 would not except the test. Eliminate the variables, document the results. We all just need to keep our heads on strait, and work for the same goal : scientific test results either for or against. until the test is completed there is no point in squabbling about it.

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#256
In reply to #255

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 7:15 PM

until the test is completed there is no point in squabbling about it.

Well put. I received the Scan Gauge, and put it on the car today. It works remarkably well, and is sensitive enough to just barely pick up the change in fuel consumption caused by turning on the headlights. At idle the fuel flow goes from .23gph to .24gph. (Both numbers vary by one digit occasionally -- the actual figures could be .235 vs .245 or so.) The change from turning on the air conditioner is much more dramatic. Even without calibrating with a fill up cycle, (only inputting the engine size in liters) the fuel economy figures are quite close to the expected numbers.

I am going out of town again, so will have more next week.

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#257
In reply to #256

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 7:23 PM

Thank you for the update. keep us posted.

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#264
In reply to #256

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/14/2009 12:37 PM

Glad to see you're still here! I had begun to think you had abandoned us...

That's a good start.

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#258
In reply to #254

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 10:09 PM

You could very well be proforming perfectly acceptable tests, how can we possibly tell?

I should just take test "old dyno tests" you keep offering & post them

I wanna see em but I'm not going to give you an excuse to leave in a huff, mumbling about how unfair we are...

The ball is in your court!

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#266
In reply to #258

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/15/2009 9:19 AM

fine by me.... I offered

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#267
In reply to #266

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/15/2009 12:03 PM

How is this "offer" in any way proving the validity of your claims?

The age of the data has no bearing on the accuracy.

You came here & asked for help, let us give it to you?

You know more about what you are doing than we do, explain it to us in great detail as if we are from another planet....

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#268
In reply to #267

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/15/2009 2:13 PM

Hello Garth , I'm henry Ben's dad , he's busy now so I'll answer if you don't mind ...

We asked Ken to test this for us and he agreed , we didn't want to supply any of our findings , because we we're met with scepticism . Lets face it any results we supply would be taken with a grain of salt , we we're presumed to be scammers and haven't had testing done by ken so we are probably still looked at the same way . cr4 has to do its own tests and that way it won't be thought of as improperly measured , something done to the vehicle to produce these results other than the hydrogen introduced I mean . We don't expect you to believe us if we did we wouldn't even be here , they must be test results from Ken and ken alone because you believe him , it must be with a vehicle yous guys supply so there is no chance of tampering , it must be with liquid measurements so there is physical proof not data collected from a scan gage , its ok to use this for a back-up but not a scan gage alone would supply proof ... As I have said repeatedly we need to measure fuel and a method presented by you's guys as acceptable ... You have to keep in mind that maybe , just maybe it does work ... we are still putting this on transport trucks and our customers are giving us their 20% plus results , not us making it up . So be prepared for a change of mindset and make sure testing will be not up for discussion concerning results ... PHYSICAL RESULTS only .. When ken comes up with a test process , he as well as all of you can contact us concerning where and when , we'll have our gloves off and ready .. good luck to all , thank-you henry

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#269
In reply to #267

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/16/2009 1:38 AM

I really hope to get detailed un-deny-able tests done for you and CR4...dyno and emissions and fuel measurements

all we need is a good way to measure the physical fuel during the dyno tests...

I posted what I think would work the best on the other thread {"discussions on "HOW" we can test the "JOHN HENRY"" If any one wants to see.. I hope blinky and CR4 decides that its feasible and would work well

THANKS MR.GARTHH and CR4 for your help so far

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#215
In reply to #210

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 2:52 PM

No that's a good start now try 2 weeks or more with & 2 or more weeks without, the bigger the sample the smaller the error, document the other variables as you have been. filling up such small quantities can introduce errors, use the same pump orient the vehicle in the same way [all things you have talked about doing]....

The 78's should get some pretty decent data as they are going through large quantities of fuel & driving 100's if not thousands of miles as long as they account for the idle time(s), the other variables may require some sort of data logger: http://www.onsetcomp.com/data-logger?gclid=CN_7t7r55pkCFRlcagodLiigSA (sorry, link no longer available) they are battery powered & can take a variety of input types. starts at 39 bucks...

you'll have to play around with sample rates and such.

The scan tool can also cover some of it, but you will need to start some spreadsheets or other files to help make sense of it all.

I'm talking about large mounds of data from on the road testing.

the more miles driven & the more variables & data points collected the better the info obtained.

OCD claims to have observed that the operating temp of the cell is important to the quality of the HHO, just an example.

Document every conceivable variable & you will know which one's are stable & require less scrutiny.

It's gonna be real hard to do it all on paper.

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#217
In reply to #215

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 3:32 PM

Putting this testing on paper in an acceptable format with all of the variables listed has been my intention from the start of my postings. It seems like some people are actually starting to come up with test data that should be included. I am happy to see others become more constructive instead of dismissing this as just another hoax. The goal of all of this head bashing should be an approved method for verifying results as agreed upon by a group of peers. If we can all agree on the test criteria and how to perform the tests we will be much closer to a verified result. I think a dyno reading is necessary to prove the test results, but there should be a way that ANYONE can do the tests prior to finding and paying for a dyno test.

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#225
In reply to #217

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 2:24 AM

I hope we can figure some thing out soon... any data I have is not applicable...

The data needs to be from a un-bias 3rd party...

If not ....life will go on... there is more than one way to prove the world wrong...

if you are 1 step ahead of technology you are a "genius" .... if your 2 steps ahead of technology your "shunned"

THERE HAS BEEN LITTLE IMPROVMENT TO ELECTROLSIS SINCE IT WAS DISCOVERED... A LONG TIME AGO.... SOME INVENTERS HAVE MADE MAJIOR IMPROVMENTS SINCE THEN... AND ITS NOT dennis lee....

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#231
In reply to #217

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 11:07 AM

The problem with paper is how hard it can be to plot 100's or 1000's of points to graph...

Oh I don't accept your conclusion, But you are persistant & are asking actual questions LOL

You should read Bricktops last post again, He layed out some good info, you not only need to document data, but also method. write down your operational & testing procedures in detail.

Post a list of the variables you document.

Ben's got it right, once you have good method & documentation going, time for 3rd parties...

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#232
In reply to #231

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 8:59 PM

Bricktop laid out good information? He said I needed to document data and test procedures and make sure the equipment used for testing is calibrated and traceable. That sounds like all of the other experts, nothing concrete like what test equipment specifically or what procedure or what data. I must sound like a badly broken record by this point and I am getting bored with saying I do not have a test lab and a billion dollar budget. I am overdrawn from the last battery of testing this week and really not in the mood for empty suggestions. SUBSTANCE! Give me something to work with guys! You all keep yelling about the data, but nobody says what that data should be or how to get it without hiring it out to someone else. This is the ENGINEERS PLACE!

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#234
In reply to #232

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 11:31 PM

I am overdrawn from the last battery of testing this week and really not in the mood for empty suggestions

What did you test? & what/how did you document?

Best to start with what you have & refine, expand...

More info from you, better answers from us.

Details Details details details

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#235
In reply to #234

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 11:22 AM

I went to see Steve Gronka and verify the flow of hydrogen from my cell and test the effects on my van. We tested the flow using the meter I have already mentioned and saw the output to be about 800ml/min. WE then drove 21 miles on HHO and the same without. With the mileage was 24.5 without the mileage was 20 mpg. I wrote the results on a piece of paper.

All of this is just anecdotal though so why bother telling you. As I have said upteen times, without precise method and equipment no matter what I get for results will be unacceptable.

Which leads me to my old worn out question: Does anyone here really care about proving HHO works or just want to make sure that it is NEVER proven? My guess is the latter.

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#236
In reply to #235

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 12:14 PM

I can only speak for myself, but I only want to know the TRUTH. If it works, then wonderful, but how and why? As a physicist and engineer, I am skeptical, but quite willing to accept whatever results careful experimentation show. If it does work to increase mileage, then we have to investigate why, since energy considerations indicate it should not. The only possible reason I can see at the moment would be that somehow the addition of the the H and/or O somehow increase the efficiency of the engine. This would be somewhat of a surprise in modern engines, as one would presume that the engine/fuel/air management system (computer) has been optimized for the standard fuel.

I anxiously await results!

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#239
In reply to #236

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 5:48 PM

Quote:

This would be somewhat of a surprise in modern engines, as one would presume that the engine/fuel/air management system (computer) has been optimized for the standard fuel.

I would never presume that the Engine Management Computer has been optimized to it's full potential... Until it is proven that All of the Fuel has been consumed by the Engine, squeezing every last bit of potential Energy from it.

That is not the Case Yet... The Piston style Internal Combustion Engine remains inefficient.

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#237
In reply to #235

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 2:21 PM

Myself and others have given you many suggestions on how to perform your tests in a way that would give an indication of whether your device works in this thread as well as the "HHO lies" thread. One poster even designed a spreadsheet for you. You have been pointed to OpenOffice.com for a free spreadsheet program, if you don't have one.

The advice is simple: Many tests, covering 100's of miles testing in A/B/A/B fashion, recording as many variables as practical, recording all data etc.

You have gotten a lot of help and advice here. You just don't follow it, and keep crying that no one will help you or no one believes you. Go back and read the replies to your posts.

Every credible test of these HHO devices have shown that they don't work. Dateline recently tested a device on a dyno, which showed no improvement. You can see the transcript here.

People point to Dennis Lee's recent court "victory". He presented 26 test slips from installations of his device, showing a rough doubling of fuel economy. These were supposedly tests run with and without the device. Dateline tried to contact these folks, and were able to find 19 of them:

"Fifteen people told us the device didn't work as advertised. Some were heading back to Sam for more re-tuning. Others were asking for their money back.

Two people actually said the device worked, but they also told us their cars weren't in working condition.

Another person who told us the device was working in his car declined our offer to have his car tested."

One person interviewed stated that the information on his supposed test slip was incorrect, implying that document presented in court had been fabricated.

Here is an installer that supposedly has done hundreds of installations, and yet can't even point to a handful of people that say it works.

So, there is lots of documented data that shows that these devices don't work. There are folks like yourself that claim that they work, but can't present any credible data.

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#246
In reply to #237

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:41 PM

well don't let Dennis make you think hho it not possible...

after all he invented the "silent jack hammer"

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#247
In reply to #237

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:48 PM

"So, there is lots of documented data that shows that these devices don't work. There are folks like yourself that claim that they work, but can't present any credible data."

thats the problem... the only "creditable data or testing" for CR4 would need to be done by CR4....

If I showed dyno testing that proves that hho increases horse power... and dropped emissions by 44% would you believe it?... NO

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#250
In reply to #247

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 11:01 PM

If I showed dyno testing that proves that hho increases horse power... and dropped emissions by 44% would you believe it?

Maybe, but there's no way to know until we have a look!

The testing procedure may need some work, how can anyone say, without some idea of what you are doing???????????

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#252
In reply to #250

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/13/2009 1:31 AM

thats a good point.... but its starting to look like mission imposable to get a test done here... blinky looks like he does not want to test it... Its ok...

there are others that would jump at the chance to test like....

the EPA , DATE LINE OR MYTH BUSTERS

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#245
In reply to #231

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:34 PM

any documented results I have are on 18 wheelers... so it has nothing to do with this test on the honda...

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#203

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/10/2009 10:13 AM

What device will you be using to test flow rate of the HHO device?

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#224
In reply to #203

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 2:02 AM

I would perfer a hydrogen flow meter it measuers in parts per million...

its not how much you make.... ITS all about the quality of the gases made...

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#228
In reply to #224

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 7:58 AM

I just used one that Steve from CR4 brought down for testing. It showed 800 ml/min on the digital display. I later found out that even though the device is calibrated for hydrogen it cannot differentiate between gasses going through it. I wondered why my volume meter I use was giving me about the same results as far as output on my cell. I was perplexed by this all the way home until I was able to look up the description of the device. It is sold by universal flow meters inc. at flowmeters.com for about $1,200 depending on flow rate specified and gas to be analyzed. It is somewhat misleading since it says hydrogen flow meter, but it is meant to be hooked up to a hydrogen supply with 99% pure hydrogen not HHO gas. It will accurately read flow rate, but it is not reading just the hydrogen on an HHO device. Apparently Denny Kline had a lot of testing done on the gas from his welder and there are some interesting things in there.

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#230
In reply to #224

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/11/2009 10:29 AM

Flow meters measure flow rate, not concentration.

Parts per million is a concentration, not a flow rate.

If you want to measure flow and concentration, you need two different devices.

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#238
In reply to #230

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 4:20 PM

SHHH. That's top Secret Engineering Knowledge.

Relevant.

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#248
In reply to #238

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:58 PM

knock knock....

who's there?...

"guest".....

"guest who"....

"guest who is not helping"

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#244
In reply to #230

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/12/2009 7:29 PM

in this test we need to have the proper data for CR4... what ever you want to measure should be measured.... I would be happy with the dyno and measurement of liquid physical fuel.... and maybe emissions for fun...

that "should" be all we would need to prove or dis-prove

but CR4 would want more than that I think.....

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#270

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/16/2009 1:58 AM

Here is a simple way to measure fuel ,.... all we have to do is get 4 or5 in-line clear fuel filters for a couple of bucks each , cut into the supply line ,... attach these filters with some proper fuel line and clamps..{this will make sure nothing from the bottom of the fuel tank gets into the motor}.... ,

Start car , run till it stops ,..{run till empty} add 1 gallon of fuel and run till it stalls - Now you know how much fuel it used and how many miles it went on the dyno , controlled conditions , controlled load .. with that done... attach hydrogen cell , add a gallon of fuel , start car , and run till it stalls ,.. question did it run longer on the first test or the second ... there's your answer .. It "should" run 20% longer and further.... If filters began to dirty up during runs from sediment in the tank , take one off there's still 3-4 filters there to do the job .. this will be accurate measurement as far as I can see...

Does any one see any problems with this method ? ... thanks for your input

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#271
In reply to #270

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/16/2009 7:37 AM

There is one problem that I see with this. The inline filters never completely empty and would cause fuel loss. If one was removed, there would be less fuel on the next run causing flawed numbers. I would rather see a tank flush done prior to the testing to remove the stuff on the bottom of the tank. Then, use the filters for back up.

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#272
In reply to #271

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/16/2009 10:56 AM

From what I understad this is a 2004 honda kens useing , It probably won't have enough debri in the tank to actually cut the fuel off at a probable 35-40 LB. pressure and if it did and we actually had to remove one filter it could be filled with fuel before installing ... If all that isen't acceptable , take it off on the hydrogen run , I'm sure we could loose some fuel in the process and still show an increase

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#273
In reply to #272

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/16/2009 11:39 AM

Hi Henry,

I would favor a plastic cone bottom tank, 3-10 gallons

http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?cat=19

You can see the level & any possible crud...

I would use liters & use a graduated cylinder to calibrate & fill. I would run no less than 10 liter [2.64 gallon] tests.

Here's a good & accurate unit converter program: http://joshmadison.com/article/convert-for-windows

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#274
In reply to #273

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/16/2009 3:15 PM

Garth : this is all well and good , but the same pump and wiring would need to be used , me and ben during our experiments tried useing a different pump other than the one in the tank and had no sucess , in the end we concluded that the amount of power being delivered to the pump was descided by the computer itself and it adjusts the power to suit the amount of fuel pressure needed for various acceleration states .... Don't forget those injectors are only open for an instant , so with a little added pressure the correct amount of fuel could be put in , or less if necessary . I could be wrong with this conclusion but keep it in mind , and it also sounds a whole lot more expensive than a couple of in line filters , I think ken wants to try and conduct these tests so that it could be done by anyone anywhere , the filter route would satisfy that don't you think? As far as cutting the supply line to the motor , some rubber neoprene hose will do it , its petroleum and oil resistant, so patching afterwards would be easy breezy

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#283
In reply to #274

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/26/2009 2:45 AM

Garth : this is all well and good , but the same pump and wiring would need to be used , me and ben during our experiments tried useing a different pump other than the one in the tank and had no sucess...

You're right. Essentially every reasonably modern car has both feed and return lines for fuel, and the pump is invariably located in the tank. Typically, the regulation is done under the hood by a fuel pressure regulator which varies pressure to a constant level above manifold pressure (which is sensed by the MAP* - manifold absolute pressure - sensor). (Actually, the amount of power to the pump is not usually varied. The regulation is done by sending some of incoming flow to the return line, and is not done by the ecu, but by mechanical regulation using differential pressures on a diaphragm or piston -- the same as most gas pressure regulators in natural gas systems, etc.) Getting a different pump to work correctly is hit or miss.

Duplicating the supply part is not impossible, and it would not be impossible to come up with a system that would feed from a calibrated tank from which you could feed 100 ml (etc) per test from its total of a couple gallons (using a pump etc from a junk yard)... but creating the device would be pretty time consuming, and not something an average experimenter is likely to want to do. Pulse width will give the same information more easily and in a way that anyone with a soldering iron could duplicate. It also has the advantage that the test can be run on the road: with two people and a flat road, the instantaneous effect of switching hho on and off should be easy to see as a 10%, 20% (or whatever) change in pulse width.

* This gets back to Cyberfool's argument re vacuum: Manifold pressure gauges have been in very long use in aircraft, and in a plane, you can easily calculate your fuel consumption from manifold pressure and rpm. Cars now have either a MAP sensor or a MAF (mass air flow) sensor. MAP and rpm can give you the required injection amount, or MAF alone can do the same. The concept of "vacuum" can't be used as directly, because manifold "vacuum" is the difference between the MAP and barometric pressure -- so if you measured manifold vacuum, you'd also need to measure barometric pressure to be able to calculate the required injection amount. So, in addition to the fact that a "vacuum" does not really "pull" air into an engine (any more than a shopping cart pulls you through a store) the concept is also clumsy for use in talking about fuel consumption and how the injected amount is calculated by the ecu.

While on the vacuum subject: Engines produce about half as much power at 18,000 feet as they do at sea level. Vacuum cleaners are half as effective at that altitude, for the same reason -- about half the total mass of air (and consequently pressure) is below 18,000 feet. There is not enough air to push dirt into the vacuum cleaner's bag. A normally-aspirated, piston-engined plane cannot, in general, fly at 18,000 feet: its manifold pressure at full throttle is only 15" Hg, and its fuel flow and power are about half of sea-level values.

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#284
In reply to #283

Re: The HHO Test Plan

04/26/2009 9:33 PM

TIPS ON USING CALIBRATED TANKS: A Brake Fluid Reserve tank made of PE material of a cylindrical shape with 300ml. capacity will do the job. Attach an extra barb fitting (brass fitting 1/4" or 5/16") on the side or on the higher section of the cylinder wall for the return line. The bottom output port is for the fuel feed. The top screw type lid can be tightened accordingly in order to allow pressure relief to occur... no need for a breather. You can put 150 to 175ml. into it and mark the level with the fuel rail and fuel line primed. This is reliable... you can make cheaper dyno runs this way. Then just factor the data to obtain liters or gallons/ km and miles equivalent. I did this last year with a Mitsubishi Lancer. On/Off mode - 10 runs. can be finished in about 4 hours... in a roundabout of about 1 km distance. Recently, I did a mileage test on a Vespa... with the same approach. 5 baseline runs cold morning, then 5 enhanced runs (Warm)... then next week... 5 baseline (enhanced mode) (Cold) then 5 (Off mode) runs (Warm). The data was compared and analysed. Significant figures where obtained: Based on 70kph average speeds 1. The lowest distance made with off mode 2. The highest distance made with off mode 3. The Average distance made with off mode (Cold - Baseline) 4. The Average distance made with off mode (Warm - with unfair advantage of running after the engine has been cleaned off inside due to prior Enhanced mode running) 1. The lowest distance made with on mode 2. highest distance made with on mode 3. average distance made with on mode (Cold) 4. average distance made with on mode (Warm -after the 1st baseline runs) The run was witnessed by parties from both sides... proponents and skpetics, the driver was provided by the skeptical side... I allowed the driver to do every trick he can in order to see if he can succeed discrediting us. Figures wont lie... so I logged the average speeds made on every run. In a nutshell: The baseline run made an average of 4km (factored at 5.71 - based on 175ml. fuel) The first time the unit was switched on - the vespa made 9.5 km.!... then the driver changed his driving style. Nevertheless, over-all improvement was 28% after the numbers where crunched. The highest distance made on this reserve tank was 9.5km. This is consistent with te initial report we got from last months mileage report when they exhausted 1 full tank ... they were able to post 41km. per liter. The EPA rating of the most economical Vespa is only 32km per liter. The perfrormance during the tests was also recorded... because an LPG hybrid Vespa was also tested on the side... and that vespa has stalling problems... the hydrogen/oxygen enhanced vespa simply outperforms the normal vespa. The Engineering students of Wisconsin University posted 10% gains with their cell. :-)... for your reference.

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