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The HHO Test Plan

03/28/2009 2:55 AM

Ben 78, who is with John Henry Hydrogen has offered an HHO unit to test. Their site is straightforward, and they do not claim that their unit will work only if you wave magnets around, pour weasel urine into the tank, or use an "efie," a device which alters (illegally, of course) the O2 sensor(s) readings.

My tentative plan is to install the unit on my 2004 Honda Accord, which has a manual transmission, helping to eliminate variability in torque converter lockup vs non lockup, etc. The Accord will be equipped with a Scan Gauge 2 fuel economy computer, the operation of which is proprietary -- but it is reasonable to assume that is uses readings from either (or both) the mass airflow sensor or pulse width on the injectors to calculate injected fuel amounts continuously. It uses the vehicle speed sensor to read vehicle speed, and then does the calculation to compute instantaneous fuel consumption (as well as trip, day, etc.).

People who have used the Scan Gauge 2 have reported very high accuracy, as would be expected, because it is using the same data that the ecu uses to precisely inject the correct amount of fuel.

With a Scan Gauge 2, and without the complicating factor of any devices which tamper with the emission system (and which could potentially "trick" the Scan Gauge 2 in the same way that the ECU can be "tricked,") even on-road tests of a device like an HHO unit (which can easily be turned on and off) can be accomplished with pretty good repeatability. However, there is no substitute for a dyno, which allows consistency of load and speed that is very hard to achieve safely (if at all) on the road, so we will use a dyno at least to calibrate and gain confidence in the Scan Gauge 2.

We'd measure HHO output flow rate periodically throughout testing to keep the flow rate constant. If it appears that there is significant gain or loss from the HHO unit, then we will vary flow rates to see if the relationship between flow rate and gain or loss changes. We will also test the claims by Onecraftydude that the typical flow rates (1-2 lpm) are actually too high (even though the injected mass is incredibly small) and cause detonation -- an effect not reported by other HHO promoters, nor by the numerous university researchers who have worked with hydrogen injection.

We will also monitor O2 sensor readings with the unit switched on and switched off.

We will do a series of A/B A/B A/B tests one immediately after the other to keep temperature, humidity, tire pressure, engine condition, etc. all constant. This will eliminate many sources of variability and sources for criticism of of invalid tests. We will allow enough time between on/off cycles to allow performance to stabilize. If we find a load at which the unit is particularly effective, we will alter flow to see if performance can be optimized, recording changes and results.

The tests will be designed so that any garage inventor can replicate them at very low cost. This will help small promoters of the units to avoid feeling that they must make outlandish performance claims before having any real data.

Our working hypothesis will be that performance differences attributable to the unit may be very hard to measure, because the energy value of the injected hydrogen is such a small portion of the total fuel consumption (on the order of 1/1000 of the total). Thus, we will be careful to see if effects can be observed at very low loads, such as at idle, as well as at more normal road loads.

If this preliminary testing indicates significant efficiency improvements, then we will attempt to set up testing with a governmental agency using standard procedures and equipment. Also, if this preliminary testing indicates a significant performance change, we will measure the criteria emissions (CO, HC, NOx) to see how they are effected.

If you have suggestions, or questions you would like to have answered via this preliminary testing, please comment. I'd like this test to be sufficient for an engineer, scientist, or technically engaged person (and ideally the average person) to be able to say either: "Yes, it looks very likely that these devices work as advertised", or "No, it seems unlikely that these devices work as advertised."

Perhaps if the HHO unit shows significant performance changes, then we can come up with a plan for testing additions, such as Efie, magnets, etc.

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#381
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 12:11 AM

cute!... :-)

This video has a cell that draws only 2A... so it cant strain the alternator, 20% mileage improvement has been documented on this car for many months of field testing....

But what's significant is that - there is relatively cleaner emissions;

And most of the guys that have borrowed to test drive it thought it was a 1600cc engine... they actually tried to race 2.0 liter cars on the road with it. They said, it's pretty fast for a 1600cc...

The nice part is, when they found out that it's only a 1300cc car. I really can't forget the expressions on their faces. Yeah, I get a kick from that. :-D

Cheers!

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#380
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/25/2009 11:50 PM

Just a red "X"

Videos are really bad evidence...

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#382
In reply to #380

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 12:56 AM

have you seen it? it's a document video - not just a video. i'll see if I can still find some stuff about it in my old files then I'll post it as soon as convenient.

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#383
In reply to #382

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 1:02 AM

No we haven't. Your post has a red X in a small box but no link to the document video. You may have to post the URL so we can copy past it into our browser.

Brad

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#384

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 1:15 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BoyF1jcOWJY

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#385
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 10:59 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BoyF1jcOWJY

How about a proper working link.

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#386
In reply to #385

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 11:09 AM

OK

I watched

I don't think I'd call that documentation, nice presentation though...

I would have liked to actually seen the smoke, that supposedly disappeared.

The gains [or lack there of] are with in the accuracy range of the instrumentation.

Like your own conclusion, isn't proof for or against.

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#387
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 11:37 AM

That's right - I actually missed shooting that smoking incident on the before runs...

It would have made a lot of difference if I had that in the video...

Anyway, it was an early video.

I also made a dyno on another vehicle which showed negative...

After analyzing both - it turned out that the former had lesser amps draw while the latter had huge amps draw relatively speaking.

But both vehicles showed a significant decrease in smoke emission in the After runs.

I agree that 1 HP or 1% increase in HP in the threadmill is insignificant... we need at least 10% to 30% HP increase in torque of HP in order to consider it significant.

But dyno wont be able to show the gains made on a 10% throttle position or pedal pressure... which is where all the actions are when it comes to oxyhydrogen enhancement.

The absense of pinging or engine knocking everytime the switched is turned on is also obvious.

Perhaps hydrogen enhancement should not be packaged as a power booster...

I think it will be more credible to package it as an ewnvironmental solution device... that may or can enhance performance and possibly increase mileage.

Field testing is needed and more burn in tests should be done with as many vehicles as possible... and data should be logged daily.

The issue on the Waste water/ electrolyte should also be addressed. What to do and how to dispose of it properly and safely... what is it's environmental impact?...

I refuse to openly endorse this technology before until I find a a way to make a clean electrolyte solution... So far, the ones I am using now has been poured on a fruit bearing tree... for many months... observation: This tree is the healthiest and bears the most fruits among the other trees around it that are receiving rain water alone.

I donot recomend using Baking Soda or any of those used traditionally... I also dont sand my cells... as is - they should perform as expected. And pushing the AMPS higher is not recomended - it defeats the purpose.

....

CR4 engineers, how does the PH level of the bubbler and the secondary bubbler affect the strength of the hydroxy gas?... can a more acidic bubbler water or scrubber module make the gas explode stronger or not?... I believe this is important because it can make the requirement of 1 LPM for 1 liter engine become less of a dogma.

If a hot (80C) hydroxy gas comes out of a cool acidic water thru another container... will there be a change in the characteristic of this gas?

any explanation will be greatly appreciated.

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#388
In reply to #387

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 11:59 AM

Well 1st tell us what you are using as a electrolyte? what concentration [PH]?

I'm not familiar please explain the waste water situation. small amounts of acidic or caustic water are relatively harmless.

you should look into using a data logger & blind testing, the driver shouldn't know whether or not the unit is active

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#392
In reply to #388

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 2:05 AM

This is an old video, and I was using about 3 to 5 tsp. of BS with Distilled water. The cell is just a Joe Cell mini variant with many neutrals to keep the amps down. This cell produces a lot of muck, thats why I discontinued making this particular design.. but for the purpose of investigative experimentations.. it has to do in the meantime. The driver or tester is the only one allowed to touch this dyno - it's his... he normally test high performance vehicles here. The car was healthy till it was subjected under his heavy feet in the first runs. There was huge smoke during the baseline runs coming from the tail pipe, dark grayish smoke... I believe excess gasoline and oil - possibly the rings gave away during this time. It was the tester who requested me to switch the unit on, because he wanted to "confirm something"... this is his exact words. "I want to confirm something"... I think, he was afaraid of destroying the engine during the baseline but the AFR also showed the mixture becoming relatyively richer. This car was newly tuned up and changed oil a day before this test. I was confident that the smoke will be gone after switching the unit on... I have seen this many times... this is not the only car I have installed hydrogen on demand systems... emission and smoke reduction is a guaranteed effect. With regards to masking a problem... IMHO catalytic converters are designed to mask the problem... not combustion enhancers.

If there are worned out rings... somehow, enhancement of combustion or having a cleaner more stronger/ quicker flame front will purge the carbon particles that causes rings to freeze. Once these rings are freed up, they function back to normal again. Our fossil based motor oil have a low thermal operating range and tends to break down faster than vegetable based oil. therefore, sticky rings or carbon build up which causes faster engine wear can be solved or cured with a more enhanced combustion plus!... enhanced oil characteristic. This approach does not in any way mask a problem... it deals with it right at the point of execution... (or where the battlefront is). - the combustion chamber and the valve train.

In the enhanced runs, the car behaved better than when it was newly tuned up. The unit is so crude and that mucking problem was evident, inspite of the 20% gains in mileage in city driving - it cannot impress some people... there ARE MANY FUEL saving gadget or solutions around that sells... even if they dont deliver the promises - but because they are packaged nicely and cleanly - People will only buy what they want... not what they need or what the planet needs. We need to somehow, integrate this into the realms of society. I am only interested about the benefits and advantages this technology brings. and IMHO - the advantages and benefits outweight the downside.

If a car owner has limited budget to fix his car... and the more cheaper alternative is an hho thing... why chose the downtime???... as the word itself suggests... it's DOWN time. No productivity!.... not really helpful in the macro scale economy.

Installing hho things is an UPTIME!... Because the engine is not suffering but it's like it's having a quick fix without compromised time borrowed from productivity.

This is why many witnesses are saying - after their hho unit was installed, their car drives like a hot rod. I dont think this is panacea.

I sure would like to build a reverse trike with a B&S engine with bicycle sprockets up to 15 speed equiped with an hho unit and some thermo-electric plates to supplement electrical charging from the exhaust to the electrolitic cell. And hopefully compete in the X-Prize someday... of course this is just wishful thinking. But these are also possible and feasible approaches.

cheers!...

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#395
In reply to #392

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 3:05 AM

I am surprised to hear that good sir....

I messed with baking soda once.... I found it makes only non flammable gases ...

when I put a blow torch up to the gases the baking soda was making it would snuff it out completely every time....

but I hear of many units that use baking soda .. but often wondered how they can get it to work... when it extinguishes a butane blow torch...

for welding purposes {and some fun} I made a blow torch from a unit that would normally be on a 18 wheeler

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#397
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 4:49 AM

I share the same view. Early part of Last year - the challenge was to be able to make a cell that doesnt need any electrolyte at all... (of course this is nearly impossible) - Most early adaptors resorted to making a closed type container with a saturated cell... (aka Full Bath system) - this effectively hides or masks the ugly muck produced by the cells overtime.

And then 316L was the bottomline material eventually becoming a standard for all to follow, the same goes with the use of KOH.

In a cell, there are many variables and elements that play interactively... to some extent, many formula or combination of approaches can be concucted to produce more Oxyhydrogen with lesses amp draw.

To get one we tend to compromise the other... and due to limited sources of some semi-precious materials, we are forced to come up with conclussions like: "Gas production is inversely proportional to efficiency".

However, optimists like some rare individuals are driven to search, find and develop ideas in the less travelled road.

Like this road we are trekking for instance.

Of course, people who go into unchartered territories are normally subject to mockery and are most often than not- ridiculed by the society. But of course, this is part of the journey.

Good Day sir.

PS

How on earth can we prove that in a certain extent, hho cells can help reverse the effects of Global warming. Can someone make a more scientific investigation on this one?

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#401
In reply to #397

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/04/2009 12:56 AM

i wish but EPA testing of this unit is $27,000

It cost twice that to develop this unit...

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#435
In reply to #401

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/23/2009 12:11 AM

I am sorry but I don't have the time to give you the data you need to put this to rest.... we would need to do expensive testing to please every one here ,,, but it has not been a total loss.... I have enjoyed all the opinions expressed on this thread

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#398
In reply to #392

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 5:11 AM

Hi ehnriko

That was very well phrased. Although I am working on a "COUSIN" of the hho technology and am not sure what your cell construction looks like, I can agree in total with what you have been proposing and stating.

I am working, experimenting very extensively and have a good understanding of what you are referring to. With out seeing other people being inspired, like you are, it would be harder to start all over again tomorrow. Good to know, that you others are at it and do not take no for an answer.

The bad news is, that if my theory is put in to practice, and works, it will be more efficient (on both, the power and exhaust), than what you are proposing. That does not mean one can not work together in the future. A man with your knowledge is worth his weight in gold. Not right now, but in our (the whole planets) near future. The same counts for me and I am trying my heart out to improve and get rid of these dinosaurs and their 'poisonous smells'. This could be compared to slaying the dragon--------, another day maybe.

I'll be reporting on what I am up to in the near future.I shall be watching this space and wish you all the best and good luck.

Greetings, Ky.

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#389
In reply to #384

Re: The HHO Test Plan

05/26/2009 12:39 PM

If there was smoke before adding the HHO, this would either indicate that the engine was not properly tuned for regular use, was tuned for HHO use, or had some problem like worn rings. If the HHO reduces the smoke, it might be masking a problem that should be repaired before making a fair comparison.

Both from the graphs I see in your video, and from some of your words, I gather that this was one of those inertial dynamometers Blink was talking about. That's not a good indicator of performance in normal driving. What we need to see is a steady load on the engine (some form of brake dynamometer) at a clamped low-to-medium accelerator setting, then off-on-off-on-off-on of the HHO, showing corresponding fuel consumption, speed, etc.

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#393
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 2:12 AM

I agree... totally.

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#390

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 12:02 AM

here is a 18 wheeler that has a reduced output of CO2 emmissinons....

it puts out 444.44 pounds LESS CO2 per day

thats 3111.08 pounds less per week .....thats over 1.5 tons

further emission testing required soon.....

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#391
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 1:31 AM

Hi Ben,

Have you seen or know of the Volvo truck in Jarboes Mill - making double mileage with a 3LPM hho gen?... 3LPM is relatively small, but from 6MPG to 12MPG as the truck driver claims... is this possible?... if it is, then 3LPM @ 30A is a safe calibration for trucks or buses? please enlighten me. Cheers....

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#394
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 2:46 AM

3LPM is really good for hho... if its not steam???

and as far as amperage goes .... on a 18 wheeler you can pull 35 amps with little strain on the huge motor.....

as for his gain in mpg's..... the only way he could be doing that for real is with sensor modifiations... to "make" his truck run that lean... normally the sensors would "allow" for up to 25% leaner mixture at the most ,,, "if needed"

what he would be using is a dual band programmable EFIE sensor... using this he could alter the information going to the ECU ,,,, telling the ECU that its a "rich" mixture... the ECU would compensate with a "leaner" mixture...... or he modified the ECU to do the same....

in any case... too "lean" of a mixture would result in a gain but also .... a loss of horse power , increased NOX emissions and allot of extra heat...

the warranty would not cover his motor that will be "NFG" ... "broken" from stress fractures and over heating..... caused from altering the sensors....

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#396
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 4:08 AM

What about mechanical injectors?... if a bus engine doesn't have ECU, like those old Nissan and Hyundai buses - more than 15 year old. 11 Liter engine with 150A alternators... turbo diesel. If I induce hho Pre-turbo area... with 3LPM - no steam hho. Will this give 50% gains? Current draw at 30A on 24VDC.

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#399
In reply to #396

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/03/2009 9:55 AM

ehnriko

If I induce hho Pre-turbo area... with 3LPM - no steam hho. Will this give 50% gains? Current draw at 30A on 24VDC.

When you say steam hho, what do you mean by that? And why no? It's not a typo is it?

If I could, I would like to know more about it, if that is not asked too much. The figures you have given are very relative and only looking at your 720 watts gives us a chance to estimate the conductivity of the electrolyte but not the temperature.

Like you said, there are so many variables, and some times focusing too hard on something can hinder intuitive reflection.

It is quiet late now, so we'll talk soon, Ky.

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#402
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/04/2009 1:21 AM

electrolysis will decrease hho production at 160f... it will start to make steam and less hho...once it gets up to 180f ....its not hot enough to boil... but it does with electrolysis.....

units that get over 160f is the reason they make EFIE sensors....

and its how they are making crazy claims on how efficient the unit is... they are measuring mostly steam not hho..

if they were making high quality hho {no steam} they would not need EFIE sensor modifactions...

as for the conductivity of the electrolye... well you guys are smart.. any hints on that would send you running to the labortory...

well except for KY who is in his lab allready... probably testing resonant frequancy of water...

I dont know how he can type with all the tricks up his sleves...

hehehe ....

I wish KY good heat distubion and properios hydrogen bbbles

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#404
In reply to #399

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/04/2009 4:26 AM

Hi Ky, Steam HHO = hydroxy gas with water vapor or steam due to heat build up... this water evaporation is also pushed out of the cells if AMPS are too high. normally, experimenters - majority of them are reading this as output, and a few of them - let this output gas to pass through a drier scrubber cell. this way, we induce only dry hydroxy gas without the water vapor or condensation. The other form of Steam HHO is the fog that is also generated which is more of a dew - not steam. This more finer mist is not deadening the explosive trait of the gas. My present bench tests indicate about 150F average temp on the electrolyzers and about 93F in the recirculator tank... the return line going back to the cell is 126F. I dont have an accurate gas flow reading yet, my bench flow meter is not calibrated and might check with bottle test later. Thank you so much... I like this..."Intuitive reflection"... Last time I heard reflection was when I was still in the seminary. Einstein would recommend imagination... because this is the creative energy needed here. Warm Regards,

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#413
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/06/2009 2:30 PM

Ehnrico, the gas temperature needs to be below 100 deg F. That is where water vapor begins to replace hydrogen gas. You can test this on your bench by lighting the gas at startup with a cold cell. The explosion will be at its strongest at the cooler temp. As the cell heats up keep lighting the gas and observing the potency of the explosion. If you are capable of boiling the water keep lighting it until it will no longer ignite. At that point record the temperature and evaluate the change with respect to temperature.

I am working on a device that will measure expansion of gasses. It will be a simple design that will allow tinkerers to test the volatility of their HHO gas safely and somewhat accurately. I do not plan to calibrate the device to show how many btu's are being put out, but only to compare gas volatility at different tempratures.

Jake did use the dry gas to run his scooter on HHO. He tried using the gas without the dryer and could not get it to start on the HHO. When he placed the dessicant dryer inline the engine started and ran up to about half throttle. For HHO as a fuel the dryer seems to be necessary. In my application the gas temp is kept below 100 deg F at all times and generally operates around 80-90 deg F. I have no problem with moisture, but I am not trying to produce enough gas to run an engine either.

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#417
In reply to #413

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/08/2009 12:12 PM

I get a bit above 60 deg. C. to about 70 plus... Even when my cells are hot, the explosion are still strong. Maybe it is not boiling yet. I use a dead lighter with just the magneto to ignite them... but the explosions are consistent. I agree, the gas needs to be dried before the intake... thats why I use 2 bubblers.

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#400
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/04/2009 12:52 AM

mechanical injectors are mechanical... they put in fuel according to how hard you press the peddle...

I wont work for mileage gain.... thats why hho did not work in the 60s 70s and 80s..

it was in the 90s when ECU and computer controlled injectors came out...

thats why it did not work then and does work now

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#403
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Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/04/2009 3:09 AM

Oh... I see... So that Volvo Rig was actually getting benefits from an EFIE?... pulsed signals to the injectors are now altered to minimized fuel feed. hmmm... So this means - we can't install these on those Pre-OBD or CAN Rigs?... is that right? Thank you very much sir for your shared wisdom.

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#405
In reply to #403

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/04/2009 10:09 PM

yup ... you can use EFIE sensor modifications on any thing with an ECU and sensors... you don't even need hho to get a gain....

but making any motor run lean by messing with the sensors will over heat and stress the motor... not to mention the increase of NOX.... sensor mods are not good and illegal...

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#406
In reply to #405

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/05/2009 2:46 AM

... if you don't use any sensor modifcations... and can show a gain in milage... on any vehical... a little Honda or 18 wheeler...

its like breaking the sound barrier ....

most hho units use EFIE sensors to get a gain... its not the hho....

ever wondered why its proven that hydrogen will decrease you mileage when used alone.... its because hydrogen burns 8 times faster than gas or diesel....

when the hydrogen burns first it uses up the air in the combustion chamber...

leaving not enough air for the liquid fuel to burn properly...

thats why the other guys use EFIE sensor trickers... and thats why it has been proven the hydrogen does not work....

we don't use sensor mods... and we have no problem with burning the liquid fuel properly with hydrogen ... think of it as an "enriched air system"...

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#407
In reply to #406

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/05/2009 12:48 PM

Hi Ben, What you say is consistent to this article in this link. http://diyhho.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html#2515310186572636812#links I don't see why hydroxy gas will take up the air when it burns... The liquid fuel is also gas or vapor in form and with air compressed with both the fuel and the hydroxy gas mixed together - they will make a new concuction... Fossil fuel has a lower ignition point.... much lower than Hydrogen... therefore - Hydroxy cannot burn or ignite ahead of the fossil fuel. It's the fossil fuel's ignition that will ignite hydroxy and it's hydroxy fast burn that will aid combustion speed of the slower burning fossil fuel. We dont make hybrid vehicles with this approach... we make a hybrid fuel mixture via the air. This will improve the power stroke in a certain way not so groundbreaking - but will definitely reduce HC and CO... which is IMHO - more important. Saving the planet is more important than saving fuel... but if we get both?... why not? With regards to EFIE's and the like, I have installed on an OBD1 vehicle with an ECU - without sensor trickers... the car made improvements - both on mileage and performance as well as emissions. I only calibrate the cell unit to only 5 to 7 A... and use a fuse with 15A rating for safety. I only tap from the power line from the wiper motor... these were my old installation procedures... I have installed an EFIE with HHO on a new gen Civic... there's about 20% gains and a lot of power @ 1,200rpm doing 90 to 100kph cruise. Savings comes from lesser throttle opening but achieving the same work output. I feel the same with carbureted vehicles... Since I am not driving a diesel - I have limited data on it. However, there was one time I experienced installing on a throttled diesel engine... it showed significant improvement - both power and emissions... The Driver was like flabergasted with how his Old - battered Philippine Jeepney was running. It used to smoke belch a lot... after we installed a small cell unit... it ran like brand new!.. the exhaust was super clean.. you can actually put your nose behind the tail pipe and have no problem breathing. It's also not offensive to the nose. We brought it right away to a calibration shop, even the shop guys were amazed since they know that jeep. The reason: Because CI engines can seal combustion a lot better than 4 stroke SI engines... but a 6 stroke engine will be perfect for this type of air enrichment aka combustion enhancement technology. Cheers!...

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#408
In reply to #407

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/05/2009 7:30 PM

Hi ehnriko

For some reason both your links did not work. Never mind, I had my daily dosage of hho proponents while looking for them, so the song remains the same. I am surprised how many individuals are experimenting actively, but just don't have the time to follow up. You know, I started with the basics in 1984 and was using the principle of anodic oxidation in a different realm of application, namely water purification. Like you, with your prior designs in other areas, I was not rewarded for my effort but punished in a real bad way. Not only me but my family as well. Enough of the typical life cycle of an inventor.

Have you heard of the elephant in the room syndrome? I'm sure you have. Well, if some one says he can see and feel and even touch this elephant and the others can't even smell it, there is some thing wrong. Either the other people in the room are fitted with dysfunctional receptive sensors (the mildest way I could put it) or the elephant is not there.

From the point of the elephant observer, it is there, and can be studied in detail. Cutting it open and dissecting it, is not 'just' done, so getting the tools to do so becomes very important. One wants to know what is inside of this big thing, don't we.

For me, watching others chasing 'only' hho and investing their time in making cars more efficient is a waste of talent and time. I can see the elephant clearly and the best thing is the others are supplying me with the tools to cut it open. Only when it is cut open will the others in the room see what I am seeing. A big and mostly white elephant.

Here is what I am getting at:

A big white elephant in a small room is like a hho fuel cell in a car. Only a few think they can see it and even play with it. What I am working on, is to put this big animal back together again. You bet, I have taken it apart. More importantly, I will have to prepare for a larger arena for this beautiful animal to live in and not bring it back to this small crowded room. That is the hardest part, to find the space were to put such a creature.

Well, I am working on that at the moment as well. I have completely gone away from running cars and trying to get better mpg. There are other ways to live as a "balanced with nature" human being, than to get from A>>>>B as fast as possible. Just like this:

A>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>B

I just hold the button. It's faster but gives us not much joy, does it?.

I had the great fortune to meet some engineers who can clearly see an outline of what I am envisaging and some can't. It is not about saying yes or no but to define the how and when and why this and not that should be applied. I have not published any of my thoughts on how this could attract and convince investors but am working on it. These strategies are as complex and volatile as the chemicals we are dealing with. One with out the other does not work, like an engine really.

OK, lets forget about this elephant, lets make it a little seed. If you knew, that you had this seed, that could do things not done before, would you just put it in the ground and hope that the soil does the rest. Well, if it were me, I would make sure that it receives all the trace elements it needs and, on the other hand, does not become a pest, which is very important. You are competing with and on other peoples territory and some will not like it at all.

They know not what they are doing. Me forgiving?

Did you know that the food can was invented before the can opener was. It was only decades later that food cans became more popular. The inventor of the latter became rich over an invention he had not started. I believe the great wars were his first big market, like many inventions, now and then. This can be of great danger because one is dealing with the most ruthless people ever to walk the earth. Maybe another day.......

Compare, if you wish, what I am doing, with just that can opener. Making things popular will have to bring the people tangible advantages. Right there and then. As simple as switch on or switch off.

My sleeves are now empty, no more tricks left. I'll be in my "lab" and get some venturis to do what I want them too. Ah, Ben if your here, I am also testing the different rainbows that are created when I divert sunlight through a fine mist of hho and water. I will take photos and correlate the different rainbows with the known chemical properties of the atomized hho water. I call it Rainbow diagnosis:-)

Some where in the Pacific, the only place to be, see what happens. Have a great time, Ky.

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#409
In reply to #408

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/05/2009 9:17 PM

nice to here from you KY... I totally agree that hho is a waste of time on a car

I wish you good luck on all your endeavors..

I am taking your advice and following up on some data

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#411
In reply to #408

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/06/2009 1:58 AM

Wow!... Thank you so much Ky, I really appreciate your reply. You have a much bigger perspective to the subject. With regards to cars, they simply are work benches... A moving laboratory... This is how I see it, I take data from whatever material or component I am using by normal bench test and the actual field test which is - the car. I appreciate the philosophical inputs... and an overview of the road you trek. I am impressed with your rainbow spectrum analyzing system... clever, lean and mean!... I would suggest you change the color of the elephant from white to pink in case you use this analogy the second time around. A white elephant has some negative connotation - especially when it involves projects or vehicles... :-) Regarding venturis... :-) Regarding going to point A to point B with lesser cost is not the point... it's about getting more joy by knowing the fact that we are less guilty doing it. Many have been chasing only hho... this is their rainbow... but you - went straight to the object. You created the rainbow literally speaking. I feel honored to come cross paths with you here... thank you, I wish you all the best.

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#414
In reply to #411

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/06/2009 6:24 PM

Apology

Sorry Ehnrico but the rainbow part was tongue in cheek. It was a response to Ben's:

well except for KY who is in his lab allready... probably testing resonant frequency of water...

This was received by my humor department, which has 3 floors and its own power supply. Once directed to there, any thing can happen. To make it clear, I am not testing with the rainbow method. I do have tricks up my sleeves but the boss of humor told me not to go there.

Well, to be honest it was not just off the top of my head. Back in 1996 I had a transportable unit (see below). The water filled perspex container (top left) was creating a rainbow.

Working outdoors one day I noticed that there was a rainbow prism being projected onto the ceiling of the veranda via the container. It was the size of an A4 sheet of paper and when the water was still the spectrum could be studied in detail.

I was doing water purification and not water diagnosis at the time. The bean counters were always on my trail so I never followed up. If my theory, that the spectrum of the prism reflection would show the chemical finger print of the water (or other fluids) then a lot of money could be saved. To have a complete analysis of the water done would cost a weeks wages back then. I'll find out one day and be a bit harder on the bean counters next time around.

I hope this has cleared things up.

I am having other problems at the moment which are mostly related to the quality of the hardware at hand. I have only gotten back into this and $ restrictions apply, as always.

I'll be back to my chamber of horrors (my neighbor calls it that) and see want I can come up with. Uncontrollable three way venturis? Not ever heard of. Talk soon, Ky.

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#410
In reply to #407

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/05/2009 11:51 PM

it sounds like your having good results with what you are doing sir...

I wish you also good luck with your endevers...

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#412
In reply to #403

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/06/2009 2:17 PM

No!

I saw the rig myself and it did not use any EFFIE.

I am not sure why Ben is changing his stance on HHO.

You know as well as I do that HHO DOES work without an effie. Ben is now stating that HHO benefit is from EFFIE units leaning out the mixture which is a departure from his earlier statements.

Ben also states that HHO by itself does not work even though he says his system does show results in a diesel rig. I would love to know why Ben decided to state that any system other than his own will not work.

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#415
In reply to #412

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/06/2009 8:17 PM

please don't get me wrong....

I was stating that an EFIE sensor on its own can produce a gain in mpg

all so I was trying to explain why hho has been tested in some cases to show a loss....

I know how hard it is to get a balanced unit... and the test of any hho device done with out sensor trickers is a hard one to pass....

I do think others if they are indeed one crafty dude can produce a gain with out sensor mods... I know its hard but possible...

I wish him good luck and hope to meet him some day...

same with MR GARTHH and KY...

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#416
In reply to #412

Re: The HHO Test Plan

06/08/2009 12:31 AM

Thank you very much "Someguy"... by the way, do you have any idea how much AMPS or current it's drawing?... (Re: Volvo Rig)

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#440

Re: The HHO Test Plan

11/18/2009 12:19 AM

Here is some good news with which to put this thread to bed:

Update: FTC puts Dennis Lee out of business.

It has been a long time coming, but Dennis Lee is now effectively out of the HHO business.* The FTC is continuing to work on further prosecution. Science 1, pseudo science 0. Dutchman is Dennis Lee's company, and is the company which caused our guest Kip significant damage to his car.

There are loads of other scammers out there but Lee was one of the biggest. His HAFC used all the add-ons and widgets to help obscure the fact that none of it works. So no, it didn't work by catalytic effect, it certainly didn't work by fuel replacement, it didn't work by using an efie to "trick" the computer, it didn't work by adding just the right magic solvent. It just plain didn't work, despite using all the tricks that show up here at CR4 as explanations for why the scammer-du-jour device works.

Sadly he is not yet behind bars, so he can continue to promote his other perpetual motion machine, the Sundance generator and Hummingbird motor (search YouTube for all sorts of interesting videos -- some of them absolutely hilarious). But this is good work by the FTC and John Heywood, director of Sloan Automotive Lab at MIT. Testing was done at Compliance and Research Services Inc in New Jersey.

For those who want to test their HHO experiments, Compliance and Research Services would clearly be the place to go. They have the advantage of having done the testing under the guidance of John Heywood, who has written combustion textbooks used around the world, and who is among the most highly-regarded automotive combustion scientists in the world.

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#441
In reply to #440

Re: The HHO Test Plan

11/18/2009 9:21 AM

We thank you Blink for your Insistence on sound science!

Milo

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#443
In reply to #441

Re: The HHO Test Plan

11/18/2009 12:18 PM

Ditto!

Dick

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#442
In reply to #440

Re: The HHO Test Plan

11/18/2009 12:11 PM

Thanks for the update.

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#444
In reply to #440

Re: The HHO Test Plan

11/18/2009 9:28 PM

Thank you Blink for the timely news!

I can only hope that this criminal and all others of his ilk will be completely shut down, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and sentenced to some Real prison time. Not just a slap on the wrist.

Kudos and high-fives to the FTC and all involved in bringing this clown to justice! I hope that this is just a beginning and they will continue to root out these scammers and bring them down.

Jeff

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#445

Re: The HHO Test Plan

10/04/2012 8:11 PM

Greetings "Blink." You might have seen some of my videos regarding "HHO" devices, and perhaps you are aware that I have a $1,000 prize for the first person to produce an "HHO" device in their automobile that I may test, where there is an increase in fuel economy of 14% or higher.

You might think about some of the testing protocols I have come up with, which one may find on my web site watercarchallenge.com

This past week I have been considering adding a OBD-II component to my testing protocols, instead of performing the tests I had come up with previously. Since driving tests are hyper-inaccurate (too many variables to control), and since proper testing on a load cell dyno is vastly too expensive, other means are necessary to test "HHO" devices.

OBD-II devices do not need to report an accurate MPG: they just need to report a consistant baseline. I also highly recommend *NOT* turning the "HHO" device on or off for test run series. In my opinion the proper way to test the devices is to keep the "HHO" device on for all tests, and alternately connect and disconnect the oxyhydrogen tube from the device and plug the hole with duct tape when the tube is disconnected.

At the moment I am working on increasing my challenge to $3,000 via the web site truthmarket.com whereby they host the challenge, and sponsors, and I perform the proper testing on any challenge.

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