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Engineers, Take Notice

01/14/2009 11:18 AM

I've noticed a lot of persons calling themselves "engineers" asking questions that a college trained engineer would be expected to know. I suspect that these so called "engineers" are not what they claim to be, judging by the questions they ask. It is OK to ask the question, but be honest about who you are. Does anyone else wonder also?

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#154
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 9:36 PM
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#156
In reply to #154

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 9:49 PM

Goes well with the Bose 901s

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#157
In reply to #156

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 9:53 PM

Surprisingly they still sound good after all these years, very well engineered speakers, just to sort of keep things on topic...

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#158
In reply to #154

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 10:44 PM

Could this be considered a form of "off-roading?" It certainly is not parked on the street!

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#160
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 10:53 PM

extreme even, maybe a new reality tv show

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#159
In reply to #154

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 10:47 PM

Not sure about these land rovers...In doors and still bogger to the Axles

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#161
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 10:54 PM

side effect of being a pack rat.

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#166
In reply to #154

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:23 PM

Incredible. Looks like my Elmer's ham shack.

Oh, wait, that was just an old US Navy metal desk. Funny how much that old desk looked like the front end of a rusty 4 X 4.

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#168
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:27 PM

But on the Bumblebee i found this

Flight

According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beat per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. Not being aware of scientists 'proving' it cannot fly, the bumblebee succeeds under "the power of its own ignorance".[24] The origin of this myth has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly.[25] In later years McMasters has backed away from this origin, suggesting that there could be multiple sources, and that the earliest he has found was a reference in the 1934 French book Le vol des insectes, they had applied the equations of air resistance to insects and found that their flight was impossible, but that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality".[26]

Some credit physicist Ludwig Prandtl (1875–1953) of the University of Göttingen in Germany with popularizing the myth. Others say it was Swiss gas dynamicist Jacob Ackeret (1898–1981) who did the calculations.

In 1934, French entomologist Antoine Magnan included the following passage in the introduction to his book Le Vol des Insectes:

Tou d'abord poussé par ce qui fait en aviation, j'ai appliqué aux insectes les lois de la résistance de l'air, et je suis arrivé avec M. SAINTE-LAGUE a cette conclusion que leur vol est impossible.

Magnan refer's to his assistant André Saint-Lagué, who was apparently an engineer.

It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle.[27]

Another description of a bee's wing function is that the wings work similarly to helicopter blades, "reverse-pitch semirotary helicopter blades".

Bees beat their wings approximate 200 times a second, which is 10-20x as fast as nerve impulses can fire. They achieve this because their thorax muscles don't expand and contract on each nerve firing, but rather vibrate like someone plucking a rubber-band.

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#145
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 6:11 PM

Hey,

It's nice to see something about off-roading in other parts of the world. You've got a fine mag going there. I like the format - very readable.

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#162
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 10:56 PM

Thank You

I appreciate your opinion.

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#140
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 3:25 PM

His calculation was based on the residential users not being present during the day time when commercial load was high, with the inclement weather the system was over loaded and the whole area shut down

He must have been sick the day they covered that in college

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#143
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Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 4:39 PM

To his credit, he is a good researcher, and probably should work as one, just not very real world oriented. he could do his best work in a small well lit room in some sub basement. It has been a long time since I worked for that utility, but I still have a lot of friends there and the stories are almost endless.

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#33

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 12:08 AM

I concur.

I've also notices that the locations of these so-called engineers are either countries noted for turning out second-rate students at best, or examples of the worst that country has to offer.

It's not just engineers--some of the doctors from these countries I wouldn't let work on my cat!

Had an anesteologist from one of those countries talking down to me in the O.R, and his English was like a fertilizer salesman with a mouthfull of samples.

Really wanted to tell him he should either go back to running a gas station or have a effing Slurpie in the recovery room for me.

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#148
In reply to #33

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 7:17 PM

I've had similar experiences with doctors, I have a condition that affects my adrenal gland, when I first started having symptoms (lethargy, low blood pressure... I couldn't walk more then about 20 feet before I had to sit down or pass out) the doctor (of indian or bangladeshi origins) I saw insisted that I was doing cocaine and suffering from hepatitis. Despite my denials, and the results of testing, he continued to insist that I was doing cocaine... I changed doctors, in fact I went to the hospital where I was told by one doctor that he thought I had hemachromatosis... he referred me to the hospitals liver specialist (a white american) who teamed up with one of his partners to good doc/bad doc me out the door with a tale of some mysterious previously un-observed virus that had assailed my system and mysteriously vanished like a fart in a hurricane. It took another 7 years for my symptoms to put me back in the hospital (a different one thank god) where I was properly diagnosed...

Frankly I don't see that the egos of engineers are any less inflated then an average medical doctor's... though possibly with more justification since engineering is the application of knowledge for the betterment of mankind while modern 'doctoring' is not much more then a gussied up voodoo rite in the name of more profitable pharmaceuticals... not to mention that your doctor's primary function (at least in the US) is to enforce the policies of your insurance company whose business is to give you as little of your money back as they can get away with.

Just remember you 'engineers' out there, if you're wrong and somebody gets hurt... is your mal-practice insurance paid up?

Or maybe I'm just cynical...

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#34

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 12:13 AM

My favorite question was asking if anyone knew the correct torque for the bolts on an airplane jet engine mount. Yeah, that's the airplane on which I want to fly alright.

Some of the questions are just frightening. To think that someone's safety might be dependent on an answer someone got off a website from some unknown source is absolutely frightening. There are just some questions that should only be answered by known authoritative sources, like the correct torque for an airplane engine mount. You should have that information from the service data from the manufacturer.

One of my other favorites is asking technical questions about a multi megawatt power plant. What? Are you kidding me? You are going to take some action regarding that scale of a project based on an answer that falls out of the clouds?

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#358
In reply to #34

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

02/01/2009 1:35 PM

One of my other favorites is asking technical questions about a multi megawatt power plant.

I have been "burned" a couple of times by answering poorly-asked questions like this one (and written with a great deal of specific information as to indicate an obvious homework or engineering problem way outside the posters understanding) by stating rather bluntly that the person should not be doing this sort of work, this is not a consultancy, etc. The posters have turned out to be workers AT the plants who are just trying to learn a bit about what they see around them.

As a result, I now validate my answers by stating both the obvious and asking the poster to provide more information on the specifics of the question (ie- why are you asking a question like this).

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#35

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 12:47 AM

Always, people who doesn`t know some basics should be ashamed of therselves to be called as engineer.Though engineering field is very vast and we cannot get all the knowledge from schools. We need experience to enrich our knowledge. Engineer should be referred as problem solver [ Technical]. If he don`t crunch his head to the problem he is facing, before asking to someone for help. He is not engineer though he possess some qualified degrees. In india there are lot of people who doesn`t posses any qualified education but they are called masters in their work , due to passion of thinking and digging the info. But they don`t refer thereselves as engineer. People refer them as engineer. Also,there are some high ranking peoples [in their studies] who don`t know how to clean the spark plug of their bike.

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#74
In reply to #35

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 3:47 PM

When you say bike, are you referring to the ones with pedals and training wheels?

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#36

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 1:17 AM

Hi all,

I want to add my two cents worth to this discussion. I have to aggree with Ronseto - there are too many people posing as engineers and post the most basic queries. I am a C&I engineer by profession - but some of the questions asked here I would expect an apprentice to know.

What really gets to me is that it seems as if the people asking the questions have never heard of google? :)

I don't say that all the people are doing this as I believe that quite a few students use this forum to get a better understanding of problems they might have. I believe that this is a good thing. I disagree however with giving a solution. I have done this a few times only to be caught in a never ending loop. I get the impression that some people expect you to do their whole design and sign it off for them.

That is the engineers bread and butter. If there was a web site where some bored person would do all that for you for free then we would not be doing any work :(

I think it is good to point new engineers in the correct direction - but I cannot believe that some of the people on this site, working with the type of projects they are working with, do not know even the basics about their own discipline? Where are their senior engineers that should be there to guide and mentor them?

As stated earlier, I get the impression that quite a few people are here to get a freebie, and get all their work done for them.

This is not why I studied engineering, and I believe that most of the geniune engineers here will aggree with me. We studied engineering because of the love of the challenge of creating something new and solving the problems that bring the project to fruition. Personally I love it when I have comissioned one of my designs and get to see it work, as well as fixing the oversights and problems that crept in as they invariably do. :) That is what engineering is about - not just sitting back on your a** and expecting free hand outs and other people to do your work for you. If this is the state of engineering today - then it is a sad day for all of us.

I must also say that I have noticed (and I don't mean this as an insult), but many of our new graduates have this attitude of being spoon fed. I am sure it has something to do with a "Sins of our fathers" type attitude. They simply do not want to go and look for the information themselves. This is not the way to learn. I believe that you retain that wich you really struggle to understand. Lets face it - you never forget the solution to that problem that kept you awake for months, but you do not remember the solution that was just handed to you.

Anyway, enough grumbling. :)

Regards,

Craig

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#41
In reply to #36

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 2:25 AM

I agree i am in japan and all the procedures and specifications are in Japanese so i have to google a lot .

I wish i had Google when i was still a student!

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#46
In reply to #36

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 7:18 AM

Craigza,

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say, some questions are almost moronic and deserve the ridicule and sarcasm they attract. This is bound to happen when "engineers" are involved (it's the way we are: unfortunately, we don't suffer fools gladly).

I would also like to ask if some of the posters read their questions or answers before they commit to the internet. Notwithstanding the (sometimes) language barrier, even some of the English-speaking contributors seem not to have the capacity to read their offerings and check for spelling and grammatical howlers. Ok, we all make a mistake but - come on - any engineer worth his salt can write write and spell, surely?

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#37

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 1:29 AM

Oh I forgot - my favorite questions that keep popping up, and not matter how many times you answer they come back. Makes you wonder if the person asking the question ever browses through the older pages?

1. What is a valve CV - you answer and they don't believe you

2. How do you calculate a valve CV - you answer and they don't believe you, or don't want to go to all that trouble

3. Why is my DP instrument calibrated like so - ask and apprentice

4. What type of instrument should I use for my application (no process data given) - see answer for no.3

5. How do I tune a PID loop (no data given) - tune the loop howzit

6. How do I detrmine the wire size for x signal - come on

7. How do I work out the cable size for x load (no distance given) - see answer no 6

8. I need a circuit for x, y and z - see answer no 6

9. Can I mix signals in my multipair cable - see answer no 6.

10. What protection must I use on xyz transformer, what tests must I carry out, how regularly and why - see answer no 6

etc, etc, etc

I particulary like the mechanical ones about piping and flanging. I am not a mechanical engineer, but even in C&I we have to know that for valves and inline instruments.

Anyways - I hope these questions give you real engineers a good laugh and make your day brighter - not make your blood boil.

Regards,

Craig

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#65
In reply to #37

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 12:22 PM

Especially when they post under the name of "Guest" and aren't getting any email notification that there's been a response in that thread.

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#38

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 1:29 AM

It's been mentioned a number of times that just because someone has an engineering degree doesn't mean they are a good designer. Of course, this is true.

Having the degree should however indicate that its owner has a good background in real world maths, physics, chemistry etc.

I've noticed many non engineer technical people use an "experience" or "cookbook" approach when solving problems and often have a poor understanding the underlying issues. Consequently, when the problem is outside their usual experience or has unusual conditions, their standard solution doesn't work.

The opposite can be true of (inexperienced) engineers, they can over-complicate when a simple battle-tested solution is available.

Designs work best when both groups talk and share their knowledge.

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#45

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 7:11 AM

Interesting topic and discussions, i love the stories.

My story isnt about someone else, but myself. I hired into the position i am currently at as a designer in the "Engineering Department". Because i did my job well i was relabeled with the title "Project Manager". That is only a term used here that means you now have more responsibility.

Of course i am neither degreed as an "Engineer" or as a "Project Manager" but am considered an "Engineer" by all in the company. A title which i will deny as often as possible. There are many out there who have put there time in on the job, and in the class room who can lay claim to the title "Engineer", but i am not one of those. I do have a lot of hands on experience, and a lot of common sense. Unfortunately that is something that can not be taught in the class room eviroment. I have meet a lot of "Engineers" who are useless, and others who are the "god" they think they are.

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#55

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 10:27 AM

Why be a engineer when you can be an administrator. The only time I asked a question here I was told I could easily find the answer on Google by a "guest" who let me know I didn't know what I was doing. By the way, he definitely didn't answer my question. My question was straightforward, but the animosity from this user was quite clear. I'm glad everyone here is not so quick to judge. Still, I'll think twice before I ever post a question on this "ENGINEER'S" place again.

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#56

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 10:40 AM

I have to stick my oar into this discussion because I'm not an engineer (the name gives that away), but I do interact with engineers. The reason I say interact rather than interview is that over the years I tend to be sent to the same engineers. Most of what I do is in the automotive area, both in review of vehicles and in some cases I get called the "engineer to human interface". I tend to try and write in a simple manner (no jokes please!) so that end users can understand how some fairly complicated machinery works and how it will affect them directly, all in 850 words.

Through the interviews I've done, I've managed to pay attention and do my own research. I learned that in about grade 7. Along the way I've also learned that if I put my mind to it (and do the research), I can do anything. I was fortunate enough to have teachers who taught and encouraged thinking "outside the box" before the box was invented! My dad, a lumberman all his life, also encouraged me to have an open mind and used the experssion "how hard can it be?" when I got bogged down. The members of this forum are also teachers in the same vein even if they don't realize it.

The up shot of this is that while I find some engineering facinating, I know I will never be an engineer, I don't have the interest or the discipline needed to complete the course work. I do use (and post to) this forum when I feel I have something to contribute. I still do my own leg work and I often turn to this forum for both information and in some cases, entertainment.

Like many of the more rounded engineers, I am starting to be able to pick out the students, posers and those who take the mickey when posting. If and when I ask a question it is because I have found more than one answer to what I want to know explained logically and I need a clarifiction on what the "industry standard" is from those who are working in the industry, not the PR type from the front office.

Being honest is always the best way, but it can be frustrating when others don't follow the same rules.

Cr

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#57

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 10:57 AM

"Degreed Engineer" = "Educated Beyond their Intelligence"

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#61
In reply to #57

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 11:09 AM

With all my posts behind me, I'm probably the least likely to disagree with you, but I do. And engineering degree does serve, as does a PE license, and as noted by myriad others, to tell an interlocutor what you have studied, and what he or she might be able to expect you to know. It also, as noted by one of my bosses in the past, shows that you had the personal discipline to stay the course, and complete it.

Of course, all of that said, neither a PE or and Engineering Degree prove what you do, in fact know. Conversely, the lack of either of those does NOT mean you don't have discipline. It only means that if you do have it, it will show elsewhere, as it was applied elsewhere.

The bottom line is that the only way to know if you have an engineer on your hands is not by his or her titles or certificates (I love me walls abound with paper, which is good for wiping ones nose with [no crude jokes please], but only if you soften it considerably, first), but by the quality of work he or she turns out. And that, you only learn after hiring, or by going to his or her references to see what he or she has done, and how it has gone.

And that, in turn, requires honesty among managers. Which is another story, but is the biggest failing point in the whole process.

Micah

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#153
In reply to #57

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 8:19 PM

This must be the source of the dreaded "ESTO" error...

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#164
In reply to #153

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:20 PM

ESTO? Would I find that on Acronym.com?

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#63

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 12:09 PM

I agree with others who think this problem stems from misunderstandings of the term "engineer". The term is different throughout the world, and this forum has people from all over the place. Being lazy is probably the main reason we see questions you know the person should know. Sloth... one of the seven deadly sins!!!

There could possibly be a feedback method of punishing people who obviously come on this forum for others to constantly do their work for them, but that might ruin the happy neighborhood we have going on here.

If somebody is asking questions you know in your bones are work they should be doing, you can choose not to help them. If its something you assume they should know, this may not be true and may stem from difference in education and possibly memory. Lets keep it a happy happy time!

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 12:19 PM

Hear, Hear. I'd prefer to help them out, even if it seems a dumb question, rather than to leave them ignorant of something they need to know. And often you get questions from bright HS students that, if answered with care, and patience, will lead to the next engineering professional. I had some teachers when I was just a kid (elementary school, in fact) who, despite me, found some value, and took hold of my education, in ways that have served me, and allowed (maybe even, in a pay-it-forward sort of effect, COMPELLED) me to do the same all of my life, for others.

And the personal rewards in helping others are so immeasurable, that if you have to ask "what do you get out of it" I can only tell you to try it for yourself, stick to it for at least a year, and see.

The joy I get from helping far outweighs anything I could get from a paycheck.

Not that I'm turning down my paycheck.

Micah

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#67

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 1:07 PM

It's true that many simple questions are not made by "engineers" (either with a diploma or not).

AFAIK, DaVinci hadn't a formal degree in engineering, nor in medicine, nor in arts.... And what about Archimedes?

A degree is just a paper (I've got some) which sometimes can give some confidence on the educational level. (Even some months ago we were taking about a "diploma mill" uncovered by US authorities, I usually receive at least a couple of daily e-mails offering me to "purchase" a MSc, PhD...)

If a question seems a child homework we are free to answer or just change to another thread. What's the problem?

Kind regards

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#70

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 2:45 PM

CR4 The Engineers Place for News and Discussion – show your E card at the door

If someone has a question or an issue to resolve that is outside of their discipline, then you don't want them to ask here on this forum because they will sound stupid? And if they sound stupid they don't deserve an answer?

I don't mind sounding stupid when I really don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not one to go on bla bla bla technical terms or work to make myself sound interesting or intelligent. Too many technical people are posers and they are full of crap! If you can't explain it in simple terms then you really don't know what you're talking about.

And why would someone spend hours sifting through the advertisements on Google to find information when a typically friendly answer from peers here could point them in the right direction. What if they don't know the terminology to initiate a proper search in the first place?

I probably post some stupid questions. And I shake my head at some stupid questions by others. But I don't rant about it on the forum.

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 3:30 PM

THANK YOU. Succinct and well said.

And a GA to you, sir!

Micah

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#75
In reply to #70

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/15/2009 3:58 PM

That's a good point about googling.

However there is an advanced search tool with google that allows you to be more specific with what you are looking for even if you don't know the exact terminology. Just mentioning something related can lead you to a more accurate listing from within the body of the information you're looking at.

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#88

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 1:19 AM

Hi all,

It is nice to see both sides of the story being fought - but lets face the facts.

1. If it is not your discipline - what are you doing working in it?
I am very confused with this? Every project I have been involved with has been a multi disciplenary project - they have to be. You have civils, mechanical, chemical, electrical, c&i etc etc etc. They each have their part to play. As C&I I have no interest in the civil part except for space requirements and the legal aspect (firewalls etc). The same goes with mechanical - I am only ineterested in the pipe size material etc.

The point I am making is that we do have a portion where we will overlap between disciplines - but that portion is applicable to your work and requirements. I speak for myself when I say that I do not know their work in detail - and I have no wish to. I find my discipline stimulating and challenging enough.

What I don't understand is why an electrical engineer (for example) would want to know in detail, the titration of x, y, z or how to size the tubes in a heat exchanger? This does not make any sense to me.

As a PE in SA you may take the responsibility of signing off the design. If you sign out of your discipline and something happens - you are in for some serious fine and jail time.

I am also confused with this thing of designer and engineer. As an engineer you are the designer. How else would the work get done, or your idea materialise. You have to do the maths to solve the problem, and you have the idea in your head. Sure, you have CAD operators - but they can do nothing without that idea that is in your head.

I also have nothing against engineers that I call QBE(Qaulified By Experience). Over the years I have worked with many of these types and have learnt a great deal from them. For that I say thank you.

I agree that we must pay back for the good fortune that we have had. Who else will teach the newer generation? But at the same time they should want to learn. As the old saying goes - you can lead a horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink.

I think this is a very emotional topic for most of us, degreed or not. I remember when I started out it worked like this: Study, get degree, graduate, work for four years as engineer in training, get PE after the four years, become junior engineer, become senior engineer, become lead engineer, become chief engineer, become engineering manager. I have not seen this for many years and I do not think it happens any more. This is a shame as I do not believe in this fast track thing that seems to be happening today. Another thing I find very sad is that the majority of engineers sit on either side of the boundry i.e. they are either retiring or they are graduates - there are very few in the middle. I believe that this is a problem as there is not enough time for the older generation to carry over the knowledge and experience to the newer generation. As I say, this is my experience here and where I have happened to work. I wonder what this situation is like for the rest of you?

Anyways - to those engineers (degreed, or not) - only you yourself will know whether you can use the title or not and whether it is justified or not.

Have a good one!

Cheers

Craig

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#90
In reply to #88

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 6:18 AM

Firstly, let me say I respect your point of view, I have no problems with it at all.

BUT!!!

I am a "NOSY" Engineer, I take a deep interest in almost ANYTHING Electrical, Mechanical or Electronic........I have very many varied hobbies........I enjoy working with almost any tools, both large and small from Lathes and Millers to screwdrivers......

I have met many Engineers who are just as crazy interested in everything as I am, if not in some cases even more crazy interested!!

These people and I get on fantastically.......each one prepared to mention things, sometimes to his own detriment, of stuff that went well or sometimes not at all.......

These are my "Engineers" whether from Uni, DipTech or whatever........

I always tried to learn as much as possible of things that directly impinged on my own work as I found that not understanding it allowed some people to "pull the wool over the eyes" of less educated persons!!! Which is why I got quite deeply into programming many times in my life......to mention only one thing...I could then make searching questions at the appropriate point!!

I can only say that my job was never in the least boring!!!!

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#91
In reply to #88

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 9:46 AM

Craig,

I appreciate your point of view but I have had a very different experience in my career to what you describe here.

"If it is not your discipline - what are you doing working in it?"

Many companies do not have an engineer from each field of study. Working in an engineering position (whether you are an engineer or not) eventually turns multidisciplinary in many companies. For example, in my last position I was tasked to design and over see the build of all aspects of an electro-mechanical forming machine. I did all of the design work, calculations, tool design, development of specifications and drawings up to the controls (which I wrote the requirements for and spec'ed the components).

As a Mechanical Designer I had to teach myself many aspects of engineering beyond mechanical. And I am proud to say that the design has been touted as their best machine to date and is being used globally.

Engineer v.s. Designer – again my experience differs. As a designer I have worked with engineers constantly. Generally they have been put in the position of project manager and have been involved in customer communication and development of requirements etc. Certainly there have been good engineers that I have worked with that have had some good input into a design. But for the most part the design has been the creation of the designer. And the engineers I have worked with were glad to have it that way because they were too busy to deal with the detail and nuances of design.

BTW. A CAD operator is not a designer. Just as a designer is not an engineer. Just as an engineer is not a designer. That said… I believe there have been posts on this topic before so I won't go on…..

I keep quoting my experience. So to list a few places I've worked as a designer….. GM Truck, GM Diesel, GM Defense, Alcoa (automotive wheels), Johnson Controls (seat division), New Flyer (transit bus), Dofasco (automotive structures), etc…..

Am I an engineer? By most definitions I guess I am. I do the job of an engineer. But I do not carry the liability of an engineer and I do not "stamp" documents. So no, I do not call myself and Engineer (capital 'E'). I do "engineering" work. And I am currently and "engineering" manager. But I am a Designer (capital 'D').

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 10:50 AM

BTW. A CAD operator is not a designer. Just as a designer is not an engineer. Just as an engineer is not a designer. That said… I believe there have been posts on this topic before so I won't go on…..

Well, a designer can and may be a CAD operator, and a designer can and may be an engineer, not to mention that engineers certainly can and may be designers. That said, I think you may be constricted in your thinking.

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 11:03 AM

Don't get me wrong. If I had gone on.... I would have stated just you you have. And more. I was just trying to stay on topic.

I've seen, and expereinced myself, projects where the engineer, the designer and the CAD operator are the same person. Add a deadline and that is where the grey hair and long evenings start.

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 11:38 AM

"I've seen, and expereinced myself, projects where the engineer, the designer and the CAD operator are the same person."

Back in the mid-80s I had a consulting firm in Massachusetts and for a time I was the Owner, CEO, CTO, CFO, Engineering, Purchasing, Marketing & Sales, Shipping & Receiving, Custodial Services and Chief Stamp Licker.

During the holiday season I'd send Christmas cards to my clients, signed: "Merry Christmas from all of us!"

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#95
In reply to #93

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 11:49 AM

Been there, done that...

12 years self-employed - designing, draughting, building, wiring, programming, testing, installing, commissioning, maintaining ....

I call myself a design engineer. Don't care whether the words begin with d e or D E, or whatever combination. I have no paper qualifications in either discipline, just 33 years in the game, after 5 years at University studying physics (I have some paper to prove that part).

I am a designer and an engineer, because that's what I do.

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 12:09 PM

Been my experience in the high tech world that physics majors make the best and most successful practicing electrical engineers.

BTW, in that world a PE is virtually useless based on my experience. I've always kept my PE current against the possibility of having to find work outside Silicon Valley. But it meant nothing there.

Ed Weldon

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#98
In reply to #96

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 12:37 PM

That seems to be the case in my neck of the woods, as well. But over the years the One Thing I've seen that sets the Great Engineers apart from the crowd -- regardless of education, country of origin, certifications, school prestige nor any of that -- is that they all share a love of engineering. The guy/gals who are "in it for the money" (ha!), or because that's what their folks urged them to do, or whatever, don't last. Engineering is not just a job, it's a committment. To excellence, if the truth be told.

Let's face it: Engineering isn't for the under-motivated or the faint of heart. Sometimes - often - it's just plain hard work that calls for depth of knowledge, good judgement, creativity, patience, wisdom and experience. And it is the art of compromise and optimization. "If you don't love to do engineering, then find something you do love and do that." This is what I tell prospective/aspiring engineers who ask me, "Should I go into Engineering? Or Business? What should I do?"

For my part I knew I was going to be an engineer the moment my dad left a broken washing-machine water pump on the kitchen table when I was four years old. I just didn't know the word "Engineer." Bog help all those doomed wristwatches he left on the tub after his showers!

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 1:20 PM

My dad gave me a $500 57 Plymouth with a flat-head six, and three in the tree, when I was only two years younger than it was, and said "if you can keep it running, you can have it". Biggest favor he ever did me, after spending all that time and money feeding and raising me. I was 15 1/2 years old, knew nothing about cars, had no tools, and neither did he.

Well, to shorten a longer story, my foster brother broke low gear pulling MY new car into our driveway, and I had to put in a junkyard trans if I wanted to run it. I did, 6 times, but I finally got it right, and never looked back.

So, what did I learn from all that? Learn anything you can, anytime you can, because you never know what you'll use, or how or when you'll use it.

I KNEW I could do anything I set my mind to, because of my Dad and that old Plymouth. If you need to do it, YOU CAN, degrees and certs be hanged. And if you love it you will.

I worked for GTE in the Federal Systems Sector offices for 17 1/2 years, doing every kind of "housekeeping" engineering (that's whatever the guys with specialties turned down with "that's not my specialty") and enjoying learning new stuff constantly. But I watched a bunch of our degreed "engineers" (remember those "specialists"?) quit to sell Real Estate, whenever the projects got slim, or the money got tight, or life otherwise got "lemony", and I could never understand it. I didn't know then, but I do now, they thought engineering was about THE MONEY. And they didn't last. But a bunch of us hard-core fixit/buildit/solve-it folks stayed on. We didn't make as much money (Maybe) but they didn't have as much fun (Certainly).

And I'm gonna either retire, or die, as an engineer. Cause I love it. And if I retire, I've already got an offer from two Middle and High Schools to go teach hands-on, practical, applied Science. That's the only thing that could be better than Engineering, making new Engineers.

I'm with you.

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 1:29 PM

Bingo!

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#101
In reply to #98

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 1:33 PM

So you (don't) want to be an engineer?
Many kids saying no to a career in engineering.

A Harris Interactive/American Society for Quality (ASQ) survey released last week shows that an overwhelming 85% of children ages 8 through 17 say they are not interested in a future engineering career. With National Engineers Week only a month away (Feb. 15–21, 2009), the findings give manufacturers more to worry about as they struggle with a troubling shortage of engineers, which may reach 70,000 by 2010 based on an estimate by the National Science Foundation.

The survey found that 44% of children aren't interested in engineering simply because they don't know much about the topic. Still another 30% of respondents shied away from engineering because they prefer a more exciting career than engineering. Finally, 21% of those kids surveyed don't feel confident enough in their math or science skills to perform well in engineering. (Ironically, the largest number of kids ranked math (22%) and science (17%) as their favorite subjects.)

The Harris/ASQ study also surveyed parents and found that engineering isn't a career they're seeing their children in, either. The adult survey found that only 20% of parents have encouraged or will encourage their child/children to consider an engineering career. Further, the majority of parents (97%) believe that knowledge of math and science will help their children have a successful career.

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#102
In reply to #101

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 1:52 PM

Ages 8-17? I'm over 40 and I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

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#105
In reply to #102

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 2:24 PM

That's WHY you're an engineer. Cause we don't EVER grow up. We're too busy having fun DOING stuff to get around to BEING anything!

Micah

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#106
In reply to #105

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 2:42 PM

Thanks for the Friday afternoon laugh.

Now I just wish my wife understood. She thinks I'm crazy with all of my little home engineering projects. However she doens't mind when those project save us time or money when they are done. Or if my talents involve fixing her clothes dryer. HA!

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#107
In reply to #106

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 2:58 PM

"She thinks I'm crazy with all of my little home engineering projects."

If she didn't think you were crazy, you'd better be wondering about her sanity. As it is, you are safe. Simply agree with her and everything will be fine (but for Bog's sake don't tell her you've been stockpiling dilithium crystals in the basement for the past two years!!! They have a frickin' cow if they find out where their Mad Money is really going!)

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#110
In reply to #107

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 3:49 PM

Dilithium crystals? Don't need them. I've been folding time and space in the garage for months now.

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#111
In reply to #110

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 4:01 PM

Poker? What are the stakes? Melange?

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#112
In reply to #101

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 7:33 PM

Without going into figures, it's more-or-less the same this side of the pond.

Something must be able to incite young minds to get them enthused - I try my best, & I'll bet a lot of you guys try too, but it ain't working well enough.

Suggestions, anyone?

Anyone got any comparatives (even qualitative) for the far east?

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#114
In reply to #112

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 9:29 PM

Start them young. My Dad was fixing everything when I was a kid. (didn't know it was because we were poor) I seen the insides of chainsaws, lawn mowers, wash-machines, lamps, pickups combines, toilets, pluming, wiring, and anything that needed fixing. He had me help handing him tools and answer my endless questions.

Public School tried to quell my questions with compliance but my curiosity was already without bounds.

My Daughter was in an early private primary school and I got a call from the teacher, my first thought was uh oh.

She asked my where my daughter had learned about things like how to make glass. The Teacher was shocked that not only did she know the different types of glass but the different chemicals that changed what properties. My daughter was five and asked me all about glass. She took what she picked from my brain to show and tell.

Her Mom has the electronics engineering degree but I'm the one who wants to know how everything works to put them together in new ways. I'm sure I drove my ex crazy with all the questions about working in the wafer fabs.

Brad

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#103
In reply to #98

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 1:54 PM

europium,

You forgot too many hours for too little pay.

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#104
In reply to #103

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 2:16 PM
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#108
In reply to #98

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 3:06 PM

For my part I knew I was going to be an engineer the moment my dad left a broken washing-machine water pump on the kitchen table when I was four years old. I just didn't know the word "Engineer." Bog help all those doomed wristwatches he left on the tub after his showers!

That sums it up best. Engineers have an an almost innate curiosity about the world. Any device/gadget/whatever will set their brain ticking. If a thing isn't working, they want to understand and fix it. If it is working they want to understand it, and think about how it could do it's job better. I don't recall what my own 'water pump moment' was, but I'm sure it's there. Getting a pat on the back for creating/fixing/improving something is nice, but it's not the driving force. If I was the last bloke on the planet, I'd still want to know why a door was squeaking in the wind, or why my phonograph was jammed. Then I'd want to fix it.

I've got bits of paper in a box, but that's all they are - bits of paper in a box. Arguably they prove I enjoyed fornicating as much as I could, thought drinking beer was a noble endeavour*, and could figure which lectures weren't worth the candle - and not much else.

'Smug' is usually a derogatory expression, but I like understanding and fixing what I can, for pure undiluted self-satisfaction. Whatever label I have doesn't matter a toss, so long as I'm satisfied that I've solved something as best as possible. I've got huge respect for people who can do things I can't (which, one way or another, is the majority) and don't mind complementing such folk. Pissing contests over qualifications and job-descriptions are a waste of time. A close second to my own fun is playing Lego and stuff with youngest relatives.

To misquote Cadbury's Mars ; "CR4 - It helps you work, rest, and play !"

* OK, it's still true !

Stop calling me 'Bog' or I'll cry, then get angry, and you really don't want me to get my sledge out. Your dads watches are probably in the p-trap.

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#109
In reply to #108

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 3:09 PM

Oh jeez! Now I have to don my hazmat suit and go fish for them. There goes the weekend!

OTOH, about those beers....

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#120
In reply to #109

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 2:16 AM

.....did you ever see that film The Abyss ? There's a part where they go deep-diving and use some kind of nasty red liquid to 'breath' inside the suit. Talk about a missed opportunity .

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#123
In reply to #120

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 10:42 AM

Actual system developed, don't know if there was long term problems.

The short term problem was getting a rational intelligent person to drowned themselves each time to use it.

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#124
In reply to #123

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 10:49 AM

Good 'ol Wiki.....here

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#128
In reply to #124

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 1:39 PM

Cool Link, TexasCharley !

Until they get there, I'm working on saturating my blood levels, so that my beer-air mix doesn't cause any nasty reaction.

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 1:52 PM

Until they get there, I'm working on saturating my blood levels, so that my beer-air mix doesn't cause any nasty reaction.

Oh you tree huggin' varmit you! I have seen what happens whenthe mixture aint right.........here

btw? is that the longest freakin' thread ever or what?!

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#130
In reply to #129

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 2:00 PM

LOL - you may enjoy my latest addition to it......

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#131
In reply to #120

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 3:18 PM

Deep diving, breathing red stuff, missed opportunity ....

Was that all about those beers? I missed something. You can BREATH beers? Now I understand why the Chief's breath in the Navy always stunk so bad ...


Stale red stuff!!

Micah

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#136
In reply to #131

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 4:18 AM

.....it's probably to mask the smell of the salt

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#97
In reply to #95

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 12:15 PM

John:

I've noticed in my studies of history, that here in the US, most of the "important" inventions of the last 40 years have been "in a lab at <name your company> so-and-so found that <whatever> and the result was the <invention>. Note that it doesn't occur very often here without an infusion of money. OR, it occurs, but we never hear about it, and never get to use it, because it doesn't get developed/marketed/sold/given away/etc.

In the UK, on the other hand, I am constantly reminded of, among others, Mr. Barnes Wallace (sp?) who developed the DamBuster bomb at a critical juncture in UK history, in his backyard, using a homemade water tank, with the help of his kids, from an event observed on a beach, etc., etc., a thoroughly independent, and probably amateur effort. And it seems to me that that is the history of the UK.

So, I am glad to see that you are carrying on a wonderful tradition of designing, and engineering, because its there to be designed and engineered.

I do the same, though my efforts are more modest, and I mostly do stuff that amuses me, or helps folks around me. And I have a very good job, and on desire to do those LLLOOOONNNNNGGGGG hours that are involved in starting and running my own business, so I've never pushed any of my ideas for monetary gain. Not that I have anything against those of you who do. More power to you.

But keep on iInventing/eEngineering/dDesigning/wWhatever floats your boating, regardless of those who say you can't without a degree, and a certificate, and (my favorite) the certification I define so that no one I don't want in gets in.

Speaking in Physics terms, for differing reasons, bumblebees and helicopters are both incapable of flight. But, since God and Igor Sikorsky didn't know that, they do anyway!

Micah

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#150
In reply to #97

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 7:58 PM

If i remember correctly insects create votexes begind their wings to great lift? the things we dont want in our planes but it works for insects(and helicopters?)

correct me if i am wrong

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#163
In reply to #150

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:18 PM

Right for insects, but that isn't the issue for Bumblebees. Its just that those little wings aren't supposed to be able to create enough lift to pick those big, fat, drag-inducing (where the vortices come in, they reduce the drag) bodies up and push them through the air.

With helicopters its a diffrent issue, but imagine the chopper hanging at a hover. The rotor is spinning, and the blades produce equal lift, because the body is stationary. Now move the fuselage, in any direction. As you can imagine, one blade, the advancing side of the rotation, is now producing more lift than the other, on the retreating side, since lift is a function of blade velocity relative to air velocity LOCAL to the blade, regardless of the relationship to air velocity at any distance from the blade. Thus, the whole "rotor disc" (a mythical construct which makes it easier to envision the lift system created by all of the blades in concert) is unbalanced, with one side wanting to produce more lift than the other. Of course, the fore and aft blades at any moment are producing equal lift (none, since they effectively IMMOBILE, with respect the air flow of the fuselage).

Ever see one of those early B&W newreels of the early helicopter flight experiments, with the helicopter slowly rolling over into the ground? Well, that's primarily because of the effect I just described. But if you want an explanation of the fix, its longer and more complicated, so I'll wait for someone with more time to ask. No, I didn't invent it, I just understand it, and find it fascinating.

BTW, there is another effect which comes into play, and makes it a lot easier to hover a helicopter by gently "stirring" the cyclic stick than by trying to balance both the cyclic and collectives in one place, with the result that a helicopter which appears to be hanging placidly in one spot is really oscillating slowly around that spot. The effect is called precession, and it results in a force trying to push down on one edge of the rotor disc actually making the whole thing move around like a wobbling plate.

Weird effects. And Sikorsky figured them out, and, one by one, figured out working cures for them. Smarter than me by a long shot.

Micah

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#165
In reply to #163

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:22 PM

Very interesting info thanks.

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#167
In reply to #165

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:26 PM

You read it that fast? Man, I have got to learn not to cut short the word count!

I'm impressed.

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#169
In reply to #167

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:29 PM

no no. brevity is good.

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#170
In reply to #169

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/18/2009 11:41 PM

True, Charley. That was tongue in cheek. But I remember in another (or maybe this one, earlier) thread that you made such a statement. I took it to heart, and am still learning how to "say more with less", or at least to leave out the extraneous.

Thanks for the good advice.

Micah

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#213
In reply to #163

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:52 AM

Micahd02 -- This has got to be the best "off-topic" answer I've seen yet. I'd give you a GAOT (pronounced "goat"?); but the system hasn't figured out how to do anything that complicated so far.

A keeper for sure.......Ed Weldon

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#225
In reply to #213

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 7:26 PM

Ed

Can't remember. Didn't I flag that "off topic"? If not, I apologize. I should have.

Micah

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#226
In reply to #225

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 7:35 PM

Micah -- You did flag it off topic. That's why I couldn't give you a good answer; so instead all I could do was yell "GOAT"

Ed

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#227
In reply to #226

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 7:51 PM

Thanks.

When I was a kid, my ears stuck out, and the kids I played with called me Mike Monkey, soon shortened to Monkey.

I'm distantly related to a long-dead US Senator, so I've been called Senator.

We're of German background (Mennonites from the what was East Germany) so I've been called a Kraut.

My Dad was a Baptist preacher, so I've been called Deacon and Preacher, though I've never been either one (and those weren't so bad, as naming conventions go, anyway).

After all that, being called a Goat, especially cause you're not allowed to just give me a GA, is pretty nice.

I accept.

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#229
In reply to #227

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:05 PM

Ha! Das ist sehr gut geiβ

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#230
In reply to #229

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:26 PM

A very good WHAT? I never was good at German. My folks spoke it when they didn't want us to know what they were saying, and that didn't work. But they didn't speak it a lot. And my Granddad was one of those old Germans for whom kids, any age, didn't exist. My Grandma spoke more English than German, at least around us.

Besides, my family spoke Low German, when they spoke it at all, and the textbooks I studied from where High German. So I couldn't even practice it at home.

So, no joy in my German, and I haven't been around a Deutsch speaker in a long time.

Micah

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#232
In reply to #230

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:36 PM

I called you a goat. I took 2 years in high school - a long time ago. My fathers family is 3rd gen from Deutschland. I had to look up goat.

So your name, Micah is a mennonite name no?

I posted an Amish reference/remark on Kris' never ending bath breaking thread yesterday and came across this....here.....which I found interesting and amusing.

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#233
In reply to #232

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:46 PM

Micah is an ancient Hebrew name, I believe. Where's that ingrate Yuval when you need him?

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#236
In reply to #233

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:57 PM

Gave it a Google and you are correct sir.

2 other interesting points I came to realize:

1. I should have realized that as it is a biblical book

2. Google registers as a spelling error (auto correct) unless you treat it as a proper noun and capitalize it

Well tonight has not been a waste of time after all

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#234
In reply to #232

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 10:51 PM

Go(a)t it. Thanks.

Micah comes from my e-mail address on yahoo, which is micaheld2000@yahoo.com (not worried about it being publicly known. If I tick enough people off to make it necessary, I'll just quietly scrap it, and make up another). My real name, though, is German, or more likely Dutch, but being mennonites our clan travelled back and forth between Holland and Germany, over multi-century periods, mostly due to pogroms against the mennonites. My branch came here in the 19-teens, and I'm third generation on both sides. But, yep, Micah could be a mennonite name. I never even considered that until you mentioned it.

And I'll betcha those guys in the link raised quite a stink at home.

Its interesting, but their are about 3 REALLY big mennonite communities between the US and Canada, with the Canadian and the PA mennonites tending to be more Luddite, and the Southern CA (Shafter, Reidley, Bakersfield) tending to be a lot more modern about things like car/house/RV/TV ownership, but since I moved to the Northeast a lot of years ago, I'm constantly having to explain the differences, even to people from PA, who see only that the PA Mennonites live like the PA Amish, and assume the same religious beliefs prevail (they don't, and, Boy, Howdy, do they differ!). And there are a lot of other Mennonite pockets around the entire American continents (Many in places like Brazil and Argentina, as well as all over North America. Interestingly, I haven't heard of many in Central America, or the Northern countries of South America, other than Brazil) but I know next to nothing of their religious practices and beliefs.

Micah

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#238
In reply to #234

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 11:11 PM

The ancient Hebrew name Micah (מִיכָה) derives from Mikhayhu (מִיכָיְהוּ), which means "who is like YAHWEH?" in Hebrew. This name occurs in the Old Testament belonging to both males and females.

Yahweh, in turn, was one of the Hebrew names for God, represented in Hebrew by the tetragrammaton ("four letters") יהוה (Yod Heh Vav Heh), transliterated into Roman script Y H W H. Because it was considered blasphemous to utter the name of God it was only written and never spoken. This resulted in the original pronunciation being lost. The name may have originally been derived from the old Semitic root הוה (havah), meaning "to be" or "to become".

The name Micah predates the Mennonites by several millennia. It is also the name of my son-in-law and my grandson.

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#241
In reply to #232

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 11:27 PM

Du meinst Ziege

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#240
In reply to #229

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 11:25 PM

Was ist ein Geiss? Du Falsche Kraut!

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#243
In reply to #240

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/22/2009 11:32 PM

Urinieren Sie auf dem Teppich Herr nicht! <hehe>

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#247
In reply to #243

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/23/2009 12:05 AM

Falsch!

Mein Herr, Bitte nicht auf dem Teppich Urinieren

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#281
In reply to #240

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/23/2009 7:48 AM

A goat. I assure you of my heritage.

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#125
In reply to #93

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 11:13 AM

Add a deadline and that is where the grey hair and long evenings start.

grey hair? . . . . . . . lucky bastard.

phoenix911

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#113
In reply to #88

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 8:05 PM

Craig,

When I was in Canada many years ago, the society differentiated between Engineers, Technologists, and Technicians. Perhaps these people who are non-degreed self-taught technical "specialists" are actually simply Technologists. Engineers actually conceptualize based on and from the fundamental principles while Technologist rarely do. Now do not get me wrong, these Technologists can be and often are problem solvers but conceptualization is just not their strength. Then, of course, there are the Technicians who can perform repairs works, but do not have a grasp of the principles at the same level as the Technologists.

There is also this article written many years ago by the famed Rutherford Aris, who observed that producing a graduate - post BS level - engineer as either research engineer or a design engineer is of the nature of a virgin losing her virginity: Once an engineer has towed the path of research then he/she can never function effectively as a design engineer, and that the design engineer can also never really function as a research engineer.

I do not want to belabor the point except to elicit that we all do not operate with the same proficiencies given that the orientation of our training greatly impacts our proficiency in the various aspects of our engineering practices.

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#115

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 10:43 PM

29 GA marks for Eu on a single thread - 29. That must be some kind of record.

And so on that note I will offer up the 30th GA for Eu on this single thread - because the responses deserve it.

cr3

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#116
In reply to #115

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/16/2009 11:35 PM

WOW I'm impressed.

I am also understanding of the OP's irritation of non engineers representing them selves as one.

My second year at Intel the engineering department came to me and asked me to join their engineering staff. I was floored. After the shell shock worn off I asked why me. Their answer was we get engineers strait out of school and it takes us a minimum of two years of holding them by the hand to get them up to speed. My reply was I'm not an engineer and they laughed at me. Then told me they had watched my research and my designing stating I could already do what they had to hold the green engineers hands so long for. The schooling would be a piece cake.

I was set to go to school at a substantial salary when life pulled a curve on me and the opportunity passed me by.

Regrets sure but I couldn't change my curious ways, so I design, research and build. (not always in that order) No degree (120 semester credits and 3 quarters credits so far) I may get one yet but paper or not I love designing and building it is what I am. Money? I made Intel plenty, on my own stuff I have yet to get far enough to break even but it is coming.

Brad

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#117
In reply to #116

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 12:33 AM

UV - Go for the degree and look at it as a great opportunity to learn new things that may be important or just interesting to you.

And remember, you can lose everything including the shirt off your back, even all the memories, but once you've got that degree no one can take it away from you and you never have to pay a penny of license fees or dues to keep it.

One other thing; before you use your valuable time and energy to take any course critically analyze it and satisfy yourself that it is truly worth your while and that the course content as well as the instructor represent a good investment of your or your company's money for the tuition and fees you'll be paying.

BTW, I strongly suspect that the reason why schools avoid teaching critical thinking is that their staff subconsciously fear being the first subjects of that which they would teach.

Ed Weldon

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#118
In reply to #117

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 1:22 AM

Thanks Ed,

BTW, I strongly suspect that the reason why schools avoid teaching critical thinking is that their staff subconsciously fear being the first subjects of that which they would teach.

That and their funders, the government. Ignorant masses are easier to control.

At the time it is not probable but with in a few years it may be an option I can pursue. Mean while I have my shop and my designs to work on. My shop is not heated and my forge shop comes after the grape arbor/gazebo going on the end of the house. (global warming is cooling my jets)

Brad

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#122
In reply to #116

Re: Engineers, Take Notice

01/17/2009 10:03 AM

I spent years working for engineers (primarily mechanical). I would perform work in the field. I knew how and why to perform the tasks I was assigned (testing/qualification/inspection/oversight). I loved what I did. I did it well. A patient engineer could teach me why we did what we did the way we did if I asked - which I always did.

Ultimately I was answering to multinational engineering teams in the largest chip plants in N America on some of the most expensive private enterprise projects in the world.

I am not a PE. I loved what I did. The PE's that used me knew they had someone they could trust in the field. And I knew when I had someone that could support me in the office or the board room.

It was symbiotic. It worked well - very well.

Just a rambling I guess.

cr3

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