Engineers, Take Notice

GA from me.

I feel the same about such people......lazy and ignorant.....

Good trick with Google too, was he pissed????

I don't remember being required to state if I was an engineer or not. I came across this forum because I use Global Spec to search for products.

I didn't say that you had to be an engineer to use this forum. I said that some who claim to be engineers are obviously not engineers and should not represent themselves as such.

You are not required to be an engineer, just honesty is more than enough!!!

I follow your argument, but I'm not so sure that I've seen that many who seem like tinkerers, dreamers or blissful fools specifically call themselves engineers. Maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong questions.

My peeve is seeing questions clearly from students (presumably of some engineering discipline) asking for what amounts to assignment answers. I don't mind giving someone who's stuck a nudge in the right direction. If asked politely and the OP demonstrates an effort was made to grasp the nudge, I don't even mind detailing how to arrive at the answer. But those who just demand an answer deserve none.

And just in case it matters, I myself was college trained (I took the train to college every day, until I flunked out).

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine. I suffered through a very rigorous major in college, then took a very challenging test afterwards to attain my license to actually (legally) call myself an Engineer. Technically you cannot call yourself an Engineer unless you have taken and passed the Professional Engineer's Examination and received your certification. I serve with the exam comittee and help prepare and evaluate the Chemical Engineer Exams and am licensed in several states.

It became very trendy for people to call themselves Engineers in the past, but it really bother's me because they 1) are not Engineers and 2) diminishes my profession by doing so. It may sound funny to say you are, say, a "Sanitation Engineer" (garbage man), but its not really funny to me. If you do not have an actual degree and haven't passed the PE exam, then you are not an "Engineer".

On the other hand (I have fingers too), I was a pretty good engineer even before I finished my degree or obtaining a professional engineering status by passing the PE exam (for which I celebrated much more heavily than when I graduated from college).

Engineering used to be done by clever mechanics before things got regulated by governments and people wanting to protect their professions to keep unqualified people in check, and rightly so. Engineers had to have four year degrees around the turn of the last century to be considered qualified to do the work, whereas doctors only had to have two year degrees, and lawyers did not have to have a degree at all.

And yes, it irks me too that some people call themselves engineers who ask some of the dumbest questions I have ever seen written.

I concur wholeheartily!

Let relate a story. In the place I used to work(I'm retired)there was a guy who immigrated from Russia and claimed he was degreed. I asked him what university or college he graduated from. His reply was he graduated from(I don't recall the one) and couldn't produce a piece of paper, claiming he was forced out because of communists. He was hired(I wasn't doing the hiring). What really got me was he came in at about the same salary as I was making at the time. I was his supervisor and I knew he didn't know squat about the job. There's a bit more about the story that I can't repeat due to religious reasons. I could point out many instances where a poster who claimed to be an engineer and isn't(based on their questions), but I don't want to single any one person out. I'm sure you already know. I personally have an in-law who comes from a former iron curtain country who claims to have a degree in chemistry, but for a test, I asked some simple questions to see what she knew. Now I'm not a chemist, but there are many things basic to chemistry that most non-chemists know. Formulas for everyday items like NaCl, she didn't know.

I think the reason these people do it is to make themselves sound important and educated and also to get a bigger salary. It's called lying.

Behind the Iron Curtain (IC)...this is a subject in which I am master. Before 1989, when many East-European (EEC) countries separated them self from the communism, IC was a curtain difficult to penetrate. Some (from EEC) were able to get a tourist passport and stay in the first capitalistic country in their way. Some had to do the trip abroad due to work related training or negotiations etc and were doing the same. Some, less fortunate, had to sneak under the IC to escape. No information about such persons were allowed to be transmitted on the other side of IC, by the orders ot the leaders of the communist states. So, unless you had your papers with you and took the risk to be searched at the communist customs, there was no written proof of your degree.

Well, there was a way to prove that you are an engineer, by doing engineering work.

I am of those who jumped over the IC, with my papers wrapped in a plastic bag. In 25 years in US, I have been to several interviews, I had several engineering jobs but I wasn't asked to show my papers, not once. Ah, I was teaching in a vocational school, for some 4 years, and they wanted to know and see everything!

Is your problem that the person was from Russia and therefore you should be entitled to a higher salary - you just come across as a bigot

"Formulas for everyday items like NaCl, she didn't know". I would hesitate a guess that whatever high school she attended didn't do a very good job of basic science education. I have 2 sons in 3rd and 5th grade, and my 5th grade son is doing math and science level work that I didn't have in high school (in the 1940s). I recall a 9th grade science class where the teacher had us write down the heaviest element we knew of. Most kids wrote lead or iron. I wrote down uranium and plutonium, and the class was never the same agaim. The teacher boosted up the science info a bit higher! In Massachusetts, kids now have to pass a MCAS exam, including math and science, to graduate from high school.

..It's called lying.

Actually it is called fraud. Lying for profit.

Brad

Hi Europium

A star and good from me too (oh and a GA).

In the UK we called people who built houses 'builders' and we also called people who worked in engineering 'engineers'. As a member of the latter, I was called an 'engineer' too. Sometimes I even had the audacity to refer to myself as an engineer while only holding a Full Technician Engineers Certificate! However, I have been employed in my discipline of engineering for 30 years and it has taken me around the world (with other people paying the tickets) six times at the last count! I would like to think that, perhaps, as it used to be all right to call myself an Engineer, I could claim 'Grandfathers Rights' to the title! But, if pushed, I really don't care!

Full Technician Engineers Certificate

Is a MechEngin Associate's degree, which is comparable to end of sophmore year coursework for a 4 year degree, favourable or less favourable than the Full Technician Cert in the eyes of an employer ?

Is the Tech Cert coursework available in trade schools which issues them upon completion or is it a standardized scheme of skill meausurement governed by a regulatory board as in the case of PE?

Hi bett4haze

The simple answer is that I don't know!

Which qualification is most favourable (I think) depends on where in the world you live, economic climate and many other factors! Also, had you asked that question say, fifteen years ago, I would have said that an FT Eng was at least favourable but these days it seems that we sink or swim by the piece of paper we hold. The better the piece of paper, the more likely we get 'given a go'!

My qualification has provided me with the means to raise my family but now...........I'm going truck driving to get out of the rat race of young 'empire builders' !

the fact that there are great engineers, including (and perhaps especially) those who do not necessarily have PE certifications.

Thank you for this view.

Having had over 43 years of successfully working as an engineer (without a Degree in engineering), no certification or even a diploma, your view gives great comfort. Having had the good fortune of heading a "Time-bound" construction project of a very large minerological plant of complexity and new technology of total plant control through a 5-in-1 redundancy computer system (SCADA) as far back as 1977, completed ahead of schedule (using computerised PERT/CPM) and below budget, I wonder whether to call myself an "Engineer" or not, though I was designated as Senior Engineer-in-charge; primarily because of the chauvinistic attitude of Graduate engineers and Engineering College Professors.

Would you agree with me that there ought to be a system that rewards sustained engineering acievement with a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER degree grade (N) for the number of years of practice > 4 years?

Incidentally, I am much sought after for "Guest" lectures in Robotics by engineering colleges and Universities even for Summer and Winter training camps for Professors of engineering at the national level.

Thanks and regards

D.Ramakrishna Naidu

Yes and there are people that excel in engineering fields without degrees.

A degree and PE certification is just a screening tool. Even if the person that has those credentials is worthless at least you as the employer can see that he has something to support this person's claims.

A person that has advanced from being an assistant to a chief engineer in some company without a degree. Who learned everything from hands on experience is also a valuable employee and has verifiable work experience. Sometimes this person is preferred over the degree holding engineer.

Someone that has learned his trade in his garage and reads a lot of engineering books probably does know what he's talking about and can hold his own against any engineering professional but for hiring purposes, he doesn't have anything substantial to support his claims.

And often will not have, nor use, the exact current phrase or term, or won't be familiar with the latest (<studly buzzword program here>(Lean 6 Sigma and ISO 9001 come to mind) or have experience with it, and will be turned away by the interviewing manager, who is not, himself or herself an engineer, and couldn't identify one by his/her engineering skills. Those who are good at book learning usually are also good at terms and terminology, while those who "learned by doing" may have "doohickey" in their vocabulary, and interviewers such as these, for whatever reason, hire based on words, rather than abilities. Maybe its just job overload, too many interviews, not enough time. Or maybe its stupid reliance on credentialling of one sort or another.

On the other hand, I have a friend who is very senior management for the US Navy (Civilian) who calls things doomaflotchies and therbiggles, in meetings, and most of her coworkers just say "yep, that's her, but we know what she's talking about, and so does she, so let's get on with it."

And she has two Masters in program management in engineering, and is working on her Doctorate. But she's also extremely intelligent AND smart (street smart, life smart, work smart, etc.) so she's probably not proof of anything we've said here.

Micah

Yes she is, she is probably worth 10 "Engineers!"

And manages them pretty well, too. Though I have to say from her stories, when she did the same for the USMC, they probably came closest to breaking her out of character. Drove her nuts, they did.

Micah

Thank you. You have a GA from me, for that. An engineer is one who engineers a solution to a problem. Pure and simple. And a PE license does not make one able to do that, though it should, and most often does, prove ones ability. But so does a successful design, built to spec, which works.

Might be a tad off topic, but this reminds me of the NDT Inspection Companies who cram a lot of Info into young kids in 80 hours, let them take a test right away and send them out to my world as CWIs and NDE Level IIs.

They either accept everything or put good stuff in abeyance creating grief for me, as I have to then interpret code for them and reinspect the stuff myself.

europium

I gave you a GA

With all the good ratings you received on this thread alone, Out of curiosity, I wonder how many that gave you a GA are a degreed engineer.

I for one am

phoenix911

What is evident to me from your post is not so much your professional qualifications as your haughtiness. I wouldn't hire you for that reason alone.

You nailed that correctly. Quite frankly, I worked with a number of card carrying PEs and I have to say I have not been impressed.

I've probably worked with more than the ones that come immediately to mind, but two really strike a chord. One was an arrogant contractor who spent all his time talking about how much time he spent on his sailing yacht to work off his "tax liability". He didn't get much done, and he didn't impress me at all. Apparently he didn't impress my boss, either, as his contract was terminated very early.

The other was a former Army Artillery Officer, who had become a PE after earning his EE. Since he was ESL (English as a Second Language) and his military service was in another country's army, he had the double whammy of having to learn English while completing his EE. He was solid professional in everything he did, he was more than willing to work alongside of, advise, and accept advise from, anyone who was willing to treat him with respect, and he and I became exceptionally good friends, until we lost touch about 10 years ago. HE was a great example of an degreed professional engineer, and PE.

Pedro Faberlle, where are you? Stand up and take a bow.

Micah

I went through 95% of my engineering degree before my job became too demanding and too much of an opportunity to pass up. I took the EIT years ago but not the PE. So under healybj8's criteria I am not an engineer. However, I can guarantee that my employer considers me an engineer and one of the best she has. A test does not an engineer make. The ability to solve problems, research answers, teach yourself, and have confidence in your abilities to come to a feasible solution is what makes an engineer. This is exactly the reason a degree is not required to take the PE exam.

Many years ago there were certain jobs where the person did not have a degree but was called an engineer; for example, Radio Engineer, Railroad Engineer. I worked with a person who was called an engineer when he worked on developing the drives for the first Univac computers, but was called a technician thirtysome years later, when we worked together. I think it was the particular discipline in earlier times whether an engineer was required to have a degree.

I too suffered greatly going though college. pre-exam axiety, things not setting in or registering for me. tough exams and tests both written as well as projects. But even then, as tough as it was, I knew that school was going to be easy as compared to getting a job after. Because making a mistake or not doing well in school as long as you were serious and work hard. . . . . you learned, you graduated.

the people that thought that the tough part was over after recieving thier degree, whether it a BS, or PE, and relaxed. actually peaked early before landing a job.

And its usually the same people that live in the past, that keep talking about their college daze........days.

phoenix911

I do take a little offense at the "haven't passed the PE exam, then you are not an "Engineer". I myself have worked in the field for over 25 years, have multiple patents, I got my undergraduate degree in Electrical Engineering and a Masters degree in Biomedical Engineering. I do consisder myself an Engineer even though I have never taken the PE exam.

Then you have your stay at home housewives who are called "Domestic Engineers."

I call mine the "Domestic Goddess". She laughs and goes on doing her job. Which is a full-time, never-ending, fairly thankless (except for mine and the kids, anyway) job.

I couldn't do it.

Micah

Gee that sounds a lot like my position......go in and clean up everyone elses stuff because they choose not to.

Unfortunately, most public works projects require the "approval" of a PE to take the heat in case of a failure.

A historical note. When I earned my PE in Texas, the exam was not required. College degree, four years of documented apprenticeship under a Registered PE, and, I don't remember exactly how many, but some peer recommendations. The Texas PE was then transferable to many other states (California excluded for sure, maybe some others). All the PE ever did for me was put me in line for law suits. A couple of the best people doing engineering level work that I have ever had the pleasure to work with had no degree, but many years of experience and self-study- these are the ones I would prefer to consult when I faced a mental block to a solution I was seeking...

Was Thomas Edison worthy of the title?

Fabulous post, Dedaelus. I would encourage every one here to read this. Regretably I'm limited by CR4 to giving you only one GA.

Excellent post.

I like to add that the PE's that I had work with in the past, when I difficult decision had to be made. They made themselves very unavailable or nowhere to be found . And that was on purpose, why because they could be wrong.

And when they were cornered, their answers were very mousy and indecisive.

phoenix911

"An engineering school only gives you the potential to become an engineer ..."

Exactly.

I worked for a number of years with a fellow who held a Master's degree in Electrical Engineering from Cornell University. At one point we were writing a program to simulate the ion source for an ion implanter used in the fabrication of microchips. We tested the simulator against measurements made from an actual, operational source. This guy was modelling the filament portion and did not understand why his model did not reflect the values of filament voltage and current he had measured. Not even close.

The reason was simple, he'd never learned that the resistivity of metals changes with temperature! A tungsten filament has a much higher electrical resistance at operating temperature than it does at ambient, and he failed to accommodate this fact in his model. An MSee (from Cornell no less) not knowing about temperature coefficients in metals? I was stunned! But on paper he sure looked good.

Years later I worked a contract with Texas Instruments to develop DSP software. T.I. hired engineering interns from various universities around the world, and one summer we had a gaggle of interns from MIT. One day one of them - a very bright girl entering her final year - asked me how color was reproduced by a CRT. "Surely the electrons don't have color! How do they know which color to produce?" She didn't know about the phosphor triads you find on a color CRT face, nor about shadow masks.

After I picked my jaw up off the floor I sprayed a light mist of Windex on the screen, sprinkling it, basically, with a whole bunch of little lenses that magnified the phosphor dots beneath (I assume she never sneezed suddenly while seated at her computer!). She was amazed at what she saw, and so were the other interns with her.

I ended up bringing things into work to show them some (rather basic) physics in order to fill in some of the blanks in their engineering education. For example, one day I brought in one of those little pill-shaped samarium-cobalt super-magnets you can find in Edmund Scientific's catalog. In the lab was a large piece of 1/8" aluminum sheet and I set this against the wall so that the sheet made a 45-degree angle with the desktop. I found a metal plug about the same size and weight as the magnet and placed them both near the top of the sheet. "Which one will make it to the bottom first?" I asked them.

"I dunno. I guess they'll both reach the bottom at the same time. That's aluminum, right? I don't see that it matters!"

"Okay, let's see whether it does or not!"

The magnet crept down the sheet (inducing eddy currents along the way, creating a secondary magnetic field that countered the magnet's motion). The plug raced to the bottom.

"Why'd the magnet go so slowly?"

Questions from senior MIT engineering undergrads. Go figure.

A GA from me too.

I have found that the ones that want to be called "Doctor" and who put their "Qualifications" on visiting cards in big letters under their name etc etc etc. Are in fact the "problem" engineers, loud but useless.......

That's a brilliant outstanding post, Dedaelous. GA from me to help more people find/ead it. May the Keatings of the world drown in their own mediocrity.

Hello Dedaelus,

...a true engineer should acquire which is to have the humility to learn from anyone...

I totally agree. A saying I like to go by is:

Geniuses make mistakes and even a fool can have a good idea. My discernment of the knowledge is my limitation. Knowledge like advice is not a take it all or leave it all proposition. So it is my ability to sift the grain of truth and knowledge from the piles of emotional sand.

My take of the Vedic Art of Wealth from about 275BC

Brad

I like the entire view. And one of the best things about it is that, as I commented to my wife today, learning something new by researching and reading is never about only the one subject it starts with. It always expands into many more fields and much more knowledge. I didn't consider it then, but the sifting process is probably the most important reason for that expansion. You have to broaden the knowledge you have to find the necessary cross-checks for the sifting and validation processes.

Pity the person who suffers no curiosity.

Micah

Pity the person who suffers no curiosity.

Sorry, I can not pity the dead. I treat them with the respect of the living but an automated meat popsicle does not serve any purpose but to be someone else's tool because they question not. The problem is the morel don't use people(even mindless) as tools.

Pandora may have opened the box but they of no curiosity only complained then continued with the mob to pee in our pool.

Must be in a cynical mood.

Brad

If it is about being honest then also... degree should not matter..

you may be aware of the fact that Mr.J.R.D.TATA was not a qualified engineer. Though he always regretted for this fact but still we all know that really does not matter.. He is the pioneer of AIR INDIA, Chairman of TATA STEELS ..... list can go on and on...

It happens from time to time. Many of the ones I have dealt with were obviously backyard tinkerers who called themselves engineers but had no formal training (self-taught). Others have been scammers who like to give themselves fancy titles like "doctor of engineering". The PC age of adding technician or engineer to someone's title to make them sound more important doesn't help (I know a "nail technician", she cuts and colours peoples nails).

In the end we can rant and what not, but it's like someone here posting lots of comments so they can get the CR4 "Guru" status. It doesn't make them a "Guru".

In the end it is all about the content. If you talk BS or ask BS questions then people are quickly going to figure out that person is full of BS. Sort of self-regulating if people bother to look at the previous threads that person has participated in and commented on, which should be mandatory if someone is asking a rather important question that they really need a "correct" answer for (not some BS that 6 other "Guests" agree with).

Jack of all trades, I have to agree, there is one inparticular that makes the best darn BS pump in the world and his hand full of elfs that back up everything he says like an echo. For any one to follow anouther so loyaly and brag and boast about so loudly I have to suspect of not being able to stand on their own.

Anyone who has looked at my profile will know that I am a Student working towards an Electrical Engineering Diploma.

I have also noticed this little querk and find it very amusing and scary at the same time.

Amusing, because these engineers do succeed very well at looking very foolish by asking such basic questions.

Scary, because some of the questions that they ask are Entry Level Trade Apprentice level questions I see in my Homework, yet they are working on serious design\build scenarios.

To those who are Real Engineers at Heart, I appreciate and respect your Knowledge and Patience I see at\on CR4, some of the answers to my posts and other have clarified stuff that I have had trouble getting a grip on or given an alternative solution.

I don't know why these guys want CR4 to do thier home work for them, it belittles CR4 and themselves and lessons learned by wrote cause more problems than they resolve.

The "look here" answers are my favorite because they let me learn more in application, not just the theory.

Regards,
Sapper

If you use the name " Sapper " then I would presume that you , like me , are an Enginer with the prefix " Royal " Engineers

Best REgards

Sapper 788

Admittedly some of the questions are not ones expected from college-trained engineers, but then it is also true that some of the people on this forum are not engineers who simply need help in the performance of their hobbies and what have you, and then there are also those who are simply engineering students.

I might also add that a lot of the questions are from offshore.

I agree with OP

Yes though it is not an engineer's exclusive, anybody can come to us for help, and we are willing to. But we have to know their capabilities to answer.

We are finding too many of the questions that are primary level (what is a swivel joint , faradays law etc what no egineer worth his salt will ask)

If we know that the kid is a std 5 or 6 well he could have asked his teacher isn't it ?

Just since he has a net access , and his dad/mom is on the site (else how could he get the address) , he just logs in and asks -

what is 2+5

And he has to mpersonate.

And other sickening aspect is to make us complete their homework/class work/project work

Even for project work (we too had to do once) - I always feel it better to not search these blogs- we are grey haired practicing engineers (most of us with due respect and apologies to black haired (and unhaired ) - and though we take pride, we are not exactly updated to latest in the field.

It is far better if they consult their project guides/ scan through papers and journals (as I remember to have done of course blogs,forums and PCs were non-existence- we worked with punched cards and Fortran, of course the papers were all in papers - not papyrus)

We are- most of us are - ready to help with technical difficulties - but not - how to design a heat exchanger

I have notice, when wrong or incorrect information is given for what ever reasons, ignorance, being exhausted, too late at night, rushed, one of the positive items on this site, is that it is more times than not almost self correcting, by other CR4 Members.

phoenix911

I know what you mean, I once met a "mechanical engineer" who wasn't able to calculate the volume of a rectangular water tank.

Unfortunately, no one else cares about the subject.

I had to give you a GA.

This sort of thing happens far too often, I was lucky in that each time some "Wanker" tried to do it to me, I was able to prove otherwise. Being with the company for nearly 30 years and having fixed literally 1000s of problems already, of course helped....

Several of these "Wankers" found themselves looking for a new job within 6 months, so they hadn't just pissed me off, they had also pissed off people with more clout too!!

I have found that I rarely had to wait long before such people had "shot their bolt" and were disconnected!

God works in mysterious ways......

Ed,

I gave you a GA also, because it reenforced my experience, Only difference it is, this guy was the same age as me, and he graduated from Berkley. After being out of school for close to 30 years, he's still talking about his college daze, he was as they say book smart, but was practical stupid.

I believe I mentioned this in an earlier post

And how he talked I have a feeling he only took a course at Berkley, and gave the impression the he got his degree there.

If thats what he did, he should have just taken a course at MIT

phoenix911

You rate a GA too for some neat comments about your experiences, thanks.

For what it is worth I gave you a GA as well.

My turn for a story about a PE who I was unfortunate to have to work for, more on that part at the end.

He was tasked with a study of the electrical demand for a section of our city, and came up with a design to save money, by reducing the number of vaults and replacing many of the transformers with dry core units of a smaller value. This particular utility had problem with 'the PE knows' and things tended to get rubber stamped without much scrutiny. The project went ahead and the system energized, without any problems, until the first day that we had heavy freezing rain. The area was almost exclusively heated by electrical heating, retrofitted since it is a very old section of the city. His calculation was based on the residential users not being present during the day time when commercial load was high, with the inclement weather the system was over loaded and the whole area shut down. Our city is know for swings in weather conditions, warm to bitterly cold and cool to nasty hot, this of course was never taken into account. As a punishment he was assigned to fill in pot holes in the utility storage yard, one would figure a couple of truckloads of gravel? Hundreds of truck loads of gravel later, a weeks worth of heavy equipment time, not to mention surveying to ensure that the drainage was perfect he was finished. He was again demoted to supervise the design drafting section, my world at the time. I hit the road soon after, but he is still there screwing up their GIS system, still not fully implemented almost 20 years down the road. Oh, his director was let go when the city amalgamated.

Shame really, I really loved doing what I was doing, but staying was not an option.

Things are good, I am an editor for an off road magazine, I get to design and build custom vehicles, I just wish I could make it pay....

Great reading this string.

So what's the name of your mag and where is it available?

I write for Difflock magazine, available at www.difflock.com and it is free to the subscriber. Just select the magazine, and then download a PDF. We went green because it is almost impossible to get recognition in magazine stores and you have to pay for the honor of being stuck on the top shelf in the back. You can pay more for front of the shelf, but it really isn't worth the money in the long run. So we give it away and circulation has gone through the roof.

I am very pasionate about all things automotive, some times I get the feeling I was born with a gear in my hand.

Rats!!! Forgot to sign in again, never make guru at this rate lol

I just bought an old Jeep a few months ago. Thanks for the info!

...some times I get the feeling I was born with a gear in my hand.

Here we call that a Gear Head

Nice mag. I'll turn my gearhead 4X4 climbing and bogging friends onto it here across the pond.

Brad

UV, Shadetree, thank you Good bunch to work with or else I may not have left the previous magazine I was with. Gear Head indeedie, you bet, and proud of it too.

So many projects so little patients from my wife, seems she doesn't appreciate the spare parts stored in the house, and all the associated stuff. Seems I have a rather large collection of automotive related items as well. Funny she does not mind the 1959 Series II Land Rover on the second floor, to be perfectly honest it is only the front half, bolted to the wall, as a television stand.

have a great week

_{Funny she does not mind the 1959 Series II Land Rover on the second floor, to be perfectly honest it is only the front half, bolted to the wall, as a television stand.}

Can you upload the pic?